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 What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class? 
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
losperros wrote:
chicagopurple wrote:
tell me what OFFENSIVE talent Zim has "developed".....please

Is he a very good defensive coach, certainly. But a complete Head Coach who can handle and offense? I see NO evidence yet.


I agree. I think Zimmer is a top notch defensive coach. However, as a Head Coach he has lacked vision for the offense, which has been a big disappointment since he took over.

I think it's possible Shurmur may actually have a sensible scheme this particular offense can use (if they repair the OL - a big IF). It seems Zimmer is on board and he claims to share Shurmur's vision, so perhaps we'll see the offense moving the ball and putting more points on the board. I sure hope so.

You are correct, at least in my humble opinion.

I think Mike Zimmer learned the hard way that his total trust in Norv Turner was misplaced. Turner was still living in the Glory Days of 1995, and constantly tried to put square pegs into round holes as a result. I'm guessing Zimmer kept him around because of their long history together, but when the offensive ineptitude made it apparent that a talented roster might blow apart at the seams, Zimmer finally put pragmatism ahead of friendship. I could imagine a conversation along the lines of, "Your system is failing in epic ways ... make serious changes or walk." Norv walked. (Purely speculative, of course.)

Defensively, Zimmer has shown that he can grow and adapt to compete against the NFL's ever-changing offensive systems. My hope is that Zimmer can adapt as a head coach, as well. Let's see what happens with Shurmur in charge. I'm cautiously optimistic. Despite being forced to run an adjusted version of Norv's system, and despite playing with an inept offensive line, the Vikings made marginal gains offensively after Shurmur took over. My hope is for a bigger step forward with Shurmur having an entire offseason to install his own system.

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Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:21 pm
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
losperros wrote:
chicagopurple wrote:
tell me what OFFENSIVE talent Zim has "developed".....please

Is he a very good defensive coach, certainly. But a complete Head Coach who can handle and offense? I see NO evidence yet.


I agree. I think Zimmer is a top notch defensive coach. However, as a Head Coach he has lacked vision for the offense, which has been a big disappointment since he took over.

I think it's possible Shurmur may actually have a sensible scheme this particular offense can use (if they repair the OL - a big IF). It seems Zimmer is on board and he claims to share Shurmur's vision, so perhaps we'll see the offense moving the ball and putting more points on the board. I sure hope so.

You are correct, at least in my humble opinion.

I think Mike Zimmer learned the hard way that his total trust in Norv Turner was misplaced. Turner was still living in the Glory Days of 1995, and constantly tried to put square pegs into round holes as a result. I'm guessing Zimmer kept him around because of their long history together, but when the offensive ineptitude made it apparent that a talented roster might blow apart at the seams, Zimmer finally put pragmatism ahead of friendship. I could imagine a conversation along the lines of, "Your system is failing in epic ways ... make serious changes or walk." Norv walked. (Purely speculative, of course.)

Defensively, Zimmer has shown that he can grow and adapt to compete against the NFL's ever-changing offensive systems. My hope is that Zimmer can adapt as a head coach, as well. Let's see what happens with Shurmur in charge. I'm cautiously optimistic. Despite being forced to run an adjusted version of Norv's system, and despite playing with an inept offensive line, the Vikings made marginal gains offensively after Shurmur took over. My hope is for a bigger step forward with Shurmur having an entire offseason to install his own system.


Boy, IMHO this is an excellent post! I share this outlook with you. I hope for the same thing with Shurmer and really feel much more optimistic about the offense now, than I ever did with Norv in the mix. I believe they have made some positive moves to the offensive coaching staff over the last year. Time will tell. Zimmer has the support of some legendary coaches in Belichick, Big Tuna and the like. I just don't believe those guys are going to give there unwavering support to just anyone. They have seen a lot of assistants over there careers and for them both to believe in Zimmer as a HC says a lot to me. I am one that believes we should be patient, he'll right the ship.


Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:57 pm
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
I think Mike Zimmer learned the hard way that his total trust in Norv Turner was misplaced. Turner was still living in the Glory Days of 1995, and constantly tried to put square pegs into round holes as a result. I'm guessing Zimmer kept him around because of their long history together, but when the offensive ineptitude made it apparent that a talented roster might blow apart at the seams, Zimmer finally put pragmatism ahead of friendship. I could imagine a conversation along the lines of, "Your system is failing in epic ways ... make serious changes or walk." Norv walked. (Purely speculative, of course.)


It's funny, my speculation moves in almost the exact opposite direction. After all, all indications were that Zimmer was genuinely surprised by Turner's decision to leave. This is purely speculative too but considering it was Turner who left, I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up feeling his trust in Zimmer (and Spielman) had been misplaced. The Vikings never came very close to assembling the personnel he needed to run his offensive system effectively, focusing primarily on defense instead. On top of that, they brought in Shurmur, which seemed like a clear attempt to undermine him.

It was uncharacteristic of Turner to leave midseason so the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. The relationship obviously wasn't working out. Turner was too inflexible. Zimmer didn't seem to know what he wanted and the offense wasn't very good. In stepped Shurmur and we saw a 3-6 finish with marginal statistical improvement, fewer wins and an offense that still wasn't very good.

Norv tried to pound some square pegs into round holes with his offensive personnel but he was a square peg too. The Vikings went one way when they hired him as OC and another with their personnel. Maybe he had something to do with that too. :confused:

Anyway, I think it's important to remember he left rather than being fired and his departure seemed to catch Zimmer and the team by surprise.


Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:30 pm
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
To your point, Jim, I womder if he was upset with the offensive personnel? That OL was atrocious before the injuries, it was actually worse after them. And Matt Asiata and Jerick McKinnon don't exactly strike fear in defenses... Granted he had AD at first but only for one season. I like that train of thought though.

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Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:44 pm
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
Lol i didn't see the second half of your post Jim... I basically summarized what you said.

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Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:45 pm
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
While I think its a fair point, I don't think the lack of appropriate personel to run his offense would have led him to quit mid season. We're not talking about a flaky ego maniac like Bobby Petrino. I find the most plausible explaination to be a philisophical difference. Being asked to compromise his standards for excellence seems the most likely scenario to me - in other words, adapt your system to get a little more production, even if it drops the ceiling. These are the sort of compromises that create team culture like the fans of the Cleveland Browns have had to endure -- and that plagued the vikings under previous ownership regimes.


Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:18 am
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
fiestavike wrote:
While I think its a fair point, I don't think the lack of appropriate personel to run his offense would have led him to quit mid season.


I wasn't really putting it forth as a singular, serious explanation, just trying to underline the fact that it was Turner who chose to leave and the circumstances strongly suggest he didn't do so under pressure to change or take a hike. Not having the necessary personnel to run his system effectively was probably frustrating but he contributed to that problem himself and I imagine there were deeper issues involved in his departure. As I said, relationship obviously wasn't working out.

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We're not talking about a flaky ego maniac like Bobby Petrino. I find the most plausible explaination to be a philisophical difference. Being asked to compromise his standards for excellence seems the most likely scenario to me - in other words, adapt your system to get a little more production, even if it drops the ceiling. These are the sort of compromises that create team culture like the fans of the Cleveland Browns have had to endure -- and that plagued the vikings under previous ownership regimes.


There were clearly philosophical differences but I doubt they fell along the lines you're suggesting.


Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:22 am
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
Mothman wrote:
There were clearly philosophical differences but I doubt they fell along the lines you're suggesting.


Obviously none of use know, but its hard for me to imagine he would have quit if he didn't perceive it that way. I don't expect any Vikings fans to agree with that perception.


Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:02 am
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
I've said before, I truly believe Turner left because Zim wanted the offense to change and Norv didnt feel like it needed to. Norv even said, "we had different views on the direction of the offense". And then you saw a drastic change in the play calling when Shurmur took over.

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Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:08 am
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
I've said before, I truly believe Turner left because Zim wanted the offense to change and Norv didnt feel like it needed to. Norv even said, "we had different views on the direction of the offense". And then you saw a drastic change in the play calling when Shurmur took over.


I think that much is clear but the big word is CHANGE. In order for him to quit, I think Norv perceived CHANGE to mean accept a lower standard due to limitations in personnel. I understand the justification for that approach, but I think it ultimately prioritizes short term goals and contributes to a toxic culture of compromise with excellence. I understand most see that as stubborn inflexibility, and I understand why they see it that way.


Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:23 am
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
fiestavike wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
I've said before, I truly believe Turner left because Zim wanted the offense to change and Norv didnt feel like it needed to. Norv even said, "we had different views on the direction of the offense". And then you saw a drastic change in the play calling when Shurmur took over.


I think that much is clear but the big word is CHANGE. In order for him to quit, I think Norv perceived CHANGE to mean accept a lower standard due to limitations in personnel. I understand the justification for that approach, but I think it ultimately prioritizes short term goals and contributes to a toxic culture of compromise with excellence. I understand most see that as stubborn inflexibility, and I understand why they see it that way.


I don't by into the "lower standard" argument at all. Norv knew what he was getting into when he came on board. He knew the Defense was in shambles and they didn't have a franchise QB or a #1 WR. The O line was average at best and aging. He knew the direction the team was heading was to going to be to build the defense and develop a franchise QB. He wasn't going to get ALL of the personnel to implement his system effectively in 3 years....they had to many needs. He hand picked a QB. Was in on drafting Diggs, Pruitt and Treadwell. Injuries surely had an impact. All of that aside, the standard of excellence your referring to pertains to the team as a whole IMHO, not just the offense. The HC was asking him to open his mind, adapt and incorporate new ideas into the offense that would benefit the team as a whole. Norvs ideas had not been working to the standard of excellence Zimmer set.. I see Norv's actions being more selfish and stubborn than I do because he had a higher standard. He wouldn't accept that his old school system wasn't going to work with the personnel he had and was too proud to change. So he Quit. It is what is. Will the offense be worse without him? I doubt it.


Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:10 pm
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
Alaskan wrote:
I don't by into the "lower standard" argument at all.


ok

Alaskan wrote:
Norv knew what he was getting into when he came on board. He knew the Defense was in shambles and they didn't have a franchise QB or a #1 WR. The O line was average at best and aging. He knew the direction the team was heading was to going to be to build the defense and develop a franchise QB. He wasn't going to get ALL of the personnel to implement his system effectively in 3 years....they had to many needs. He hand picked a QB. Was in on drafting Diggs, Pruitt and Treadwell. Injuries surely had an impact. All of that aside, the standard of excellence your referring to pertains to the team as a whole IMHO, not just the offense.


all a non-sequitur.

Alaskan wrote:
The HC was asking him to open his mind, adapt and incorporate new ideas into the offense that would benefit the team as a whole.
That may have been Zimmer's perspective.

Alaskan wrote:
Norvs ideas had not been working to the standard of excellence Zimmer set..


Focus on outcome, not process. Not about excellence.

Alaskan wrote:
I see Norv's actions being more selfish and stubborn than I do because he had a higher standard. He wouldn't accept that his old school system wasn't going to work with the personnel he had and was too proud to change. So he Quit.


Given the rest of what you stated, I understand why you think that.

Alaskan wrote:
Will the offense be worse without him? I doubt it.
[/quote]

That's not a valuable question. Its not even possible to answer. Will its peak potential be as high? no. Will its immediate effectiveness be greater if there is no personnel change? probably. If they fix the offensive line would they be better off with Norv or Shurmur? Norv. In the end, we've taken a step AWAY from a superbowl victory.


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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
fiestavike wrote:
Alaskan wrote:
I don't by into the "lower standard" argument at all.


ok

Alaskan wrote:
Norv knew what he was getting into when he came on board. He knew the Defense was in shambles and they didn't have a franchise QB or a #1 WR. The O line was average at best and aging. He knew the direction the team was heading was to going to be to build the defense and develop a franchise QB. He wasn't going to get ALL of the personnel to implement his system effectively in 3 years....they had to many needs. He hand picked a QB. Was in on drafting Diggs, Pruitt and Treadwell. Injuries surely had an impact. All of that aside, the standard of excellence your referring to pertains to the team as a whole IMHO, not just the offense.


all a non-sequitur.

Alaskan wrote:
The HC was asking him to open his mind, adapt and incorporate new ideas into the offense that would benefit the team as a whole.
That may have been Zimmer's perspective.

Alaskan wrote:
Norvs ideas had not been working to the standard of excellence Zimmer set..


Focus on outcome, not process. Not about excellence.

Alaskan wrote:
I see Norv's actions being more selfish and stubborn than I do because he had a higher standard. He wouldn't accept that his old school system wasn't going to work with the personnel he had and was too proud to change. So he Quit.


Given the rest of what you stated, I understand why you think that.

Alaskan wrote:
Will the offense be worse without him? I doubt it.


That's not a valuable question. Its not even possible to answer. Will its peak potential be as high? no. Will its immediate effectiveness be greater if there is no personnel change? probably. If they fix the offensive line would they be better off with Norv or Shurmur? Norv. In the end, we've taken a step AWAY from a superbowl victory.[/quote]

Hahahaha. There is plenty of evidence to support the conclusion I came too above. Were have you been!! You can conclude whatever you want to regarding Norv, his "standards" and his greatness as an offensive coach. The fact of the matter is simple. HE QUIT!! Classy! Definitely what I look for in a leader.

I am not looking for advise on what types of questions are valuable. Thanks for offering up your expert opinion though. In the end, Norv's day in the sun passed a long, long time ago. Good riddance!


Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:39 am
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Post Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?
Alaskan wrote:

Hahahaha. There is plenty of evidence to support the conclusion I came too above. Were have you been!! You can conclude whatever you want to regarding Norv, his "standards" and his greatness as an offensive coach. The fact of the matter is simple. HE QUIT!! Classy! Definitely what I look for in a leader.

I am not looking for advise on what types of questions are valuable. Thanks for offering up your expert opinion though. In the end, Norv's day in the sun passed a long, long time ago. Good riddance!


We're obviously on different wave lengths. Have a good one.


Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:55 am
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