What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

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Mothman
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What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Mothman » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:19 pm

http://www.startribune.com/what-to-make ... 412431223/
There are more questions than answers when looking back at Rick Spielman’s quietest rookie draft class since he took full control as General Manager five years ago.

Each player in the Vikings’ 2016 draft class, which produced the fewest offensive and defensive snaps among all rookie groups in the NFL, faced different road blocks between poor practices, injury or a lack of opportunity. The latter is why Spielman, who last spring assessed a roster with veterans approaching free agency in key spots, said he traded back from the third to sixth round in last year’s draft to add via trade with Miami third- and fourth-round picks this spring.
Treadwell surprisingly led Vikings rookies on offense and defense, just ahead of Kearse (78 snaps), Alexander (68) and sixth-round tight end David Morgan (63). They didn’t have a single rookie surpass 100 snaps on their respective side, something six 2015 rookies did for the Vikings. It was by far the least involved rookie class under Spielman, according to snap counts compiled by Football Outsiders.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:28 pm

All I think it really says is that this is the most depth we've ever had since Spielman has been here. Which isnt surprising since he started a complete rebuild in 2012. I mean you look at the top two picks which were WR and CB. We have decent depth at WR (Had much less last offseason but had a few surprises in CP and Thielen) and CB was loaded from top to bottom. I still dont believe either were bad picks. But at the time, we desperately needed a WR and Munnerlyn was going into a contract year and Newman was on the verge of retirement. I think they were smart picks and somewhat along the BPA approach. It's just that we werent as desperate as most thought at those positions when everything got going.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by chicagopurple » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:28 pm

rubbing salt in the wound......
poor drafting apparently, especially since there WERE injuries on starters and opportunities for most of these rookies to prove themselves...they just didnt come thru.

could there be an element of poor coaching, ie lack of skill at developing young talent? Or maybe a grizzled head coach who doesnt like to play rookies? I dont know but Zim does strike me as potentially one of those guys. He loves his old veterans.

Bradford did a really nice job going to a good variety of receivers so I dont think the problem was that he was one of those QBs who only likes to involve his security-blanket recievers. The rookies just didnt perform, didnt run routes well, didnt hold onto the ball when given the opportunities so they moved on from them.

As with the chronic OL problems, this all goes on Spielmans shoulders....his picks, his coahing choices

OH, and for Percy's Sake...let ME shoulder the burden by puttin the words in MY own mouth : I no longer have confidence in Spielman.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by CbusVikesFan » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:38 pm

I guess it shouldn't be too difficult to draft a class that will see the field more than last years group. Even without a first rounder. If the Vikings could draft an actual offensive lineman that can go from day one it will be a miracle of miracles and if so it shouldn't be difficult to pass a hundo.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Mothman » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:59 pm

chicagopurple wrote:rubbing salt in the wound......
poor drafting apparently, especially since there WERE injuries on starters and opportunities for most of these rookies to prove themselves...they just didnt come thru.

could there be an element of poor coaching, ie lack of skill at developing young talent? Or maybe a grizzled head coach who doesnt like to play rookies? I dont know but Zim does strike me as potentially one of those guys. He loves his old veterans.
the article did contain this line:
Head coach Mike Zimmer has long stated his win-only philosophy toward playing time, evident as Alexander and safety Jayron Kearse were quickly pulled after mistakes in their rare appearances in the league’s third-ranked defense last season.
Bradford did a really nice job going to a good variety of receivers so I dont think the problem was that he was one of those QBs who only likes to involve his security-blanket recievers. The rookies just didnt perform, didnt run routes well, didnt hold onto the ball when given the opportunities so they moved on from them.

As with the chronic OL problems, this all goes on Spielmans shoulders....his picks, his coahing choices

OH, and for Percy's Sake...let ME shoulder the burden by puttin the words in MY own mouth : I no longer have confidence in Spielman.
Obviously, I don't either.

It will be interesting to see if anybody from this last Vikings rookie class develops into a long term starter or even a quality NFL player. It's still too early to tell one way or another but the potential is obviously there for the whole class to be one big strikeout.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by halfgiz » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:04 pm

I think it was a combination of things.
Morgan & Treadwell was injured some of the season. Morgan lost 3-4 weeks with a knee sprain.

Beavers as of right now, was just a bad pick.

Krease & Alexander were both way down on the depth chart. When they finally got a chance, they had a bad play and Zimmer sent them back to the bench.

Brothers had a great year on ST's, but a couple of them games we was getting run on he never got a chance.
That's what we drafted him for...

We was in need of a big back for short yardage and CJ ham was active a few games and never got a chance.
Don't really understand that.

I do agree, that on the Defensive side we do have a lot of depth.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by HardcoreVikesFan » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:03 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:All I think it really says is that this is the most depth we've ever had since Spielman has been here.
Depth on one side of the ball - maybe. Even defensively, there are spots where I question if the depth we have is adequate (safety, defensive tackle, linebacker).

Offensively... What depth? Wide receiver is about the only position you can argue. Quarterback once Teddy is healthy (and if an adequate developmental guy is drafted to compete with T.H.).

This team still needs quality players and quality depth. We wouldn't have been an 8-8 squad if we already met that criteria.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:07 pm

HardcoreVikesFan wrote: Depth on one side of the ball - maybe. Even defensively, there are spots where I question if the depth we have is adequate (safety, defensive tackle, linebacker).

Offensively... What depth? Wide receiver is about the only position you can argue. Quarterback once Teddy is healthy (and if an adequate developmental guy is drafted to compete with T.H.).

This team still needs quality players and quality depth. We wouldn't have been an 8-8 squad if we already met that criteria.
Well yeah WR is what I was referring to. Clearly not OL. QB would be one if Teddy is healthy.

Safety I didnt mind because Newman can play there plus Harris and Kearse are decent enough fill ins. LB, Lamur can play just about any spot and was better than Greenway IMO. Brothers and Cole can fill in at the middle. DT, if you look at a healthy roster, Joseph, Floyd, Stephen and Johnson is a solid group.

I never said they didnt need quality players and quality depth. If they didnt, I would guess we are in the SB.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:15 pm

chicagopurple wrote:rubbing salt in the wound......
poor drafting apparently, especially since there WERE injuries on starters and opportunities for most of these rookies to prove themselves...they just didnt come thru.
There werent enough injuries to say so at CB. As for WR, we were healthy scratching Wright. We had a lot of depth there. I'm not sure how anyone could say it was poor drafting when you saw them in limited action. You could've said Waynes was poor drafting after his rookie year but was that really the case? No. So saying it's poor drafting is just you going in blind and taking the easy way out. Like I said millions of times on here and some fail to acknowledge.....Christian Ponder was a bust. He proved it. He had plenty of opportunities and was terrible. Jamarcus Russell was a bust. Same opportunities. Laquon Treadwell and Mackensie Alexander had what opportunities?? Not anywhere near as many as any of those "busts". But just since they didnt play much at positions of good depth, it was poor drafting?? Sorry, not buying that.
could there be an element of poor coaching, ie lack of skill at developing young talent? Or maybe a grizzled head coach who doesnt like to play rookies? I dont know but Zim does strike me as potentially one of those guys. He loves his old veterans.
Zim has developed young talent quite well over the years in this league. So no, it's definitely not "poor coaching" or "lack of skill". I don't think he necessarily doesnt like to play rookies. He started guys like Barr and Kendricks out of the gate. I just think he feels there is no need to rush guys when there are already guys in those spots performing and thats exactly what happened at WR and CB.

OH, and for Percy's Sake...let ME shoulder the burden by puttin the words in MY own mouth : I no longer have confidence in Spielman.
Tell me something I don't know. You've been Mr. Negative on here for at least a year now. Nor do I put words in anyones mouth but go ahead and drink that Koolaid too while you're at it. :roll:
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by chicagopurple » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:02 am

tell me what OFFENSIVE talent Zim has "developed".....please

Is he a very good defensive coach, certainly. But a complete Head Coach who can handle and offense? I see NO evidence yet.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by losperros » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:29 am

chicagopurple wrote:tell me what OFFENSIVE talent Zim has "developed".....please

Is he a very good defensive coach, certainly. But a complete Head Coach who can handle and offense? I see NO evidence yet.
I agree. I think Zimmer is a top notch defensive coach. However, as a Head Coach he has lacked vision for the offense, which has been a big disappointment since he took over.

I think it's possible Shurmur may actually have a sensible scheme this particular offense can use (if they repair the OL - a big IF). It seems Zimmer is on board and he claims to share Shurmur's vision, so perhaps we'll see the offense moving the ball and putting more points on the board. I sure hope so.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:31 am

chicagopurple wrote:tell me what OFFENSIVE talent Zim has "developed".....please

Is he a very good defensive coach, certainly. But a complete Head Coach who can handle and offense? I see NO evidence yet.
You never specifically said he lacked skill in developing "offensive talent". You just said it in general. And if anything, he's been playing defensive rookies less than offensive the past few years. Hunter is better than Robison and still wasnt getting the start, Waynes barely played last year, Alexander barely played this year.

Why couldnt we say he developed Diggs, Thielen, CP? Rudolph has improved since he's been here?? Teddy looked on track this preseason. Do those guys not count or something?? I mean what arent you seeing evidence of?? Because Laquon Treadwell didnt produce this year that means he cant develop offensive players?? What standard are you holding him to? I'm not really sure who you expect him to develop on the OL. Not sure how you "develop" an ex-FB in Asiata or a 3rd down back in Mckinnon into a 3 down back. I'm pretty sure Zim was the one that had CP working with every outsider imaginable and got him to improve and grow up. So there is your answer.

I'm not sitting here trying to claim Zim is some offensive guru but to say he hasnt developed players on this offense is false because we had a lot of surprises this year on offense and have good players at skilled positions
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by chicagopurple » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:54 am

CP hasnt bloomed as he should
Rudolph is simply a great mature talent and I dont think Zim made him what he is
Thielen IS a good example of progress
Bridgewater has NOT in anyway proven himself. He is just a big maybe who has shown no downfield passing threat. His biggest assets so far is that he is a nice kid who can throw the ball away rather then toss interceptions. His "progress" is nothing for Zim to brag about and giving the QB coaching job to Norv's Little Boy was Lame Nepotism as its worst.....again THAT is all on Spielman.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by IrishViking » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:03 pm

chicagopurple wrote:CP hasnt bloomed as he should
Rudolph is simply a great mature talent and I dont think Zim made him what he is
Thielen IS a good example of progress
Bridgewater has NOT in anyway proven himself. He is just a big maybe who has shown no downfield passing threat. His biggest assets so far is that he is a nice kid who can throw the ball away rather then toss interceptions. His "progress" is nothing for Zim to brag about and giving the QB coaching job to Norv's Little Boy was Lame Nepotism as its worst.....again THAT is all on Spielman.

Nothing regarding Bridgewater is verifiable since his leg exploded.

I am utterly disappointed with Zimmer's handling it strikes me as he came in thinking he could get a Former OC/Headcoach to pair with himself as as Former DC now head coach and essentially let the OC control the entirety of the offensive side of the club and only get involved on the big up/down official "headcoachy" calls.

Blew up, failed, crashed and burned.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by autobon7 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:11 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: You never specifically said he lacked skill in developing "offensive talent". You just said it in general. And if anything, he's been playing defensive rookies less than offensive the past few years. Hunter is better than Robison and still wasnt getting the start, Waynes barely played last year, Alexander barely played this year.

Why couldnt we say he developed Diggs, Thielen, CP? Rudolph has improved since he's been here?? Teddy looked on track this preseason. Do those guys not count or something?? I mean what arent you seeing evidence of?? Because Laquon Treadwell didnt produce this year that means he cant develop offensive players?? What standard are you holding him to? I'm not really sure who you expect him to develop on the OL. Not sure how you "develop" an ex-FB in Asiata or a 3rd down back in Mckinnon into a 3 down back. I'm pretty sure Zim was the one that had CP working with every outsider imaginable and got him to improve and grow up. So there is your answer.

I'm not sitting here trying to claim Zim is some offensive guru but to say he hasnt developed players on this offense is false because we had a lot of surprises this year on offense and have good players at skilled positions
I agree with PHP here. Plus I would like to add...... some of the recent comments that Zim made in regards to Uncle Norv. If it is accurate he has said that Norv was not open to suggestion which is something we all had assumed. Even though Zim is the HC I think he let Norv run the show....put too much faith in him and it didn't pan out which reflects back on Zim. So yeah it is ultimately Zims baby but I'll be willing to bet he learned from that mistake and moving forward with Shurmur we will see an offense that will show a bit more urgency and input from Zim/others. Rebuilding the OL remains the most critical piece of the puzzle.......with the rest of the team/positions solid and for the most part fairly deep. I think most will agree that this offseason will be the most critical in recent memory in terms of fixing the OL and winning now. The window will not stay open for long.
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