Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a year

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3463
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by mansquatch » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:12 am

I think the fuse is burning on this message board, there is no indication of anything negative out of the Vikings.

ESPN just picked this club as a SB contender in 2017. I'm a well known talking head disparager so I'm not putting any stock in such a prediction. However, it does show that even outside of Purple Kool-Aid land, there is an opinion that this roster is capable of being highly competitive. Main point of bringing this up is that it seems extremely unlikely that any "fuse" is burning for Zimmer and Spielman.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 37385
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:23 am

mansquatch wrote:I think the fuse is burning on this message board, there is no indication of anything negative out of the Vikings.
I think a 3-8 finish and significant turnover on the coaching staff are indications from the Vikings.
ESPN just picked this club as a SB contender in 2017. I'm a well known talking head disparager so I'm not putting any stock in such a prediction. However, it does show that even outside of Purple Kool-Aid land, there is an opinion that this roster is capable of being highly competitive. Main point of bringing this up is that it seems extremely unlikely that any "fuse" is burning for Zimmer and Spielman.
I think it's been lit but how fast it will burn is debatable. A season like the Vikes just had doesn't go unnoticed or leave a GM and coach unscathed but it doesn't mean either is in imminent danger of being fired if next season is disappointing. I think the point here is that they're only going to get so many bites at the apple. If the Vikes make the playoffs again next year, or even win in the playoffs, that fuse might go out or just keep burning oh-so-slowly. If they go 6-10 with another bad OL and another draft class that barely contributes, Zimmer and Spielman could find themselves sitting on pretty hot seats.

User avatar
IrishViking
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:02 am

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by IrishViking » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:16 pm

I think people tend to let the seasons sorta merge and forget that he has been the head coach for the 2014, 2015, and 2016 season. He is entering his fourth year. If he has a losing record or even just misses the playoffs this year I think its a pretty reasonable move to start looking for a replacement. 4 years and one playoff loss and a piddling offense is no reason to keep a coach.

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3479
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:01 pm

My thought is that when a head coaches overhauls his offense, it had better work. I don't think he'll get a second chance.

I really believe they stuck with Shurmur because it will take less capital to get that offense functioning as its meant to, even if it has a lower ceiling than they might get with a better OC or a more aggressive system. They believe the window is open, just like whatever talking head on ESPN is picking the Vikes as a contender, so they've shifted to looking for improvement from the offense instead of excellence (prioritizing the short term goal over the long term goal). I believe they'll get improvement, but unless the defense becomes elite, it will just be another heartbreaker season for the Vikings and their fans. The key to this approach working is competent OL play and 2-3 more impact players on Defense.

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6919
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:33 pm

Mothman wrote:If they go 6-10 with another bad OL and another draft class that barely contributes, Zimmer and Spielman could find themselves sitting on pretty hot seats.
As they should be.

As much as I love Mike Zimmer, I also know that he knows what's wrong with this team. Failure to fix it, or at least make significant strides toward fixing it, is an indication that Spielman and Zimmer AREN'T CAPABLE of fixing it.

I don't believe that's the case, but the proof will be in the pudding. The roster talent, beyond the O-line, is there. It's put-up-or-shut-up time.
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
808vikingsfan
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3361
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:45 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by 808vikingsfan » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:31 pm

IrishViking wrote:I think people tend to let the seasons sorta merge and forget that he has been the head coach for the 2014, 2015, and 2016 season. He is entering his fourth year. If he has a losing record or even just misses the playoffs this year I think its a pretty reasonable move to start looking for a replacement. 4 years and one playoff loss and a piddling offense is no reason to keep a coach.
2014 (the Peterson suspension year. Remember how bad it got? Starting QB gone in game 3)
2015 No major losses. finish 11-5
2016 (loss of starting QB, starting RB, OL injuries,) Miss playoffs by 1-2 games

I see no reason to starting thinking of a coaching change. He's only had one season where he didn't have to face adversity and significant talent loss on the field. IMO, he's proven that if he has all his cards, his team will be contending. I'd take those chances any day. I mean what are you guys looking for, a magician?
Joined: Aug 2006
Deleted: Sept 12 2014
Reborn: Sept 17 2014

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 37385
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:51 pm

808vikingsfan wrote: 2014 (the Peterson suspension year. Remember how bad it got? Starting QB gone in game 3)
2015 No major losses. finish 11-5
2016 (loss of starting QB, starting RB, OL injuries,) Miss playoffs by 1-2 games

I see no reason to starting thinking of a coaching change. He's only had one season where he didn't have to face adversity and significant talent loss on the field. IMO, he's proven that if he has all his cards, his team will be contending. I'd take those chances any day. I mean what are you guys looking for, a magician?
You could apply the same logic to the previous two coaches. :confused: When they had all their cards (or at least enough) they made the playoffs too. Childress even got close to a Super Bowl appearance.

Coaches and teams inevitably face adversity and the Vikings handled it pretty poorly last season. I'm not looking to see Zimmer replaced right now and I'm not looking for a magician but I do want to see the team improve on areas of obvious weakness and I want to see a team-building strategy that leads to bigger and better things.

I think what some us are saying in this thread is that sufficiently unsatisfying results next year could lead to a coaching change or at least put Zimmer and Spielman on the hot seat.

User avatar
808vikingsfan
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3361
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:45 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by 808vikingsfan » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:06 pm

Mothman wrote: You could apply the same logic to the previous two coaches. :confused: When they had all their cards (or at least enough) they made the playoffs too. Childress even got close to a Super Bowl appearance.
I disagree. The only winning season Fraiser had was because of Peterson in 2012. Childress, I give him credit for taking the Vikings to the playoffs with Tarvaris but the NFC championship year was mostly the doing of Favre. Also note that neither of these coaches lost Peterson for any significant amount of time and that he also was in his prime.


Coaches and teams inevitably face adversity and the Vikings handled it pretty poorly last season. I'm not looking to see Zimmer replaced right now and I'm not looking for a magician but I do want to see the team improve on areas of obvious weakness and I want to see a team-building strategy that leads to bigger and better things.
Is it possible the reason last season seemed like a waste was because of false hopes when they started 5-0? Like I said before, you take away your two or three best offense players on any team and decimate the OL with injuries and it'll turn any offense into a shell of its former self. It's a wonder they were actually in the playoff hunt this year.


I think what some us are saying in this thread is that sufficiently unsatisfying results next year could lead to a coaching change or at least put Zimmer and Spielman on the hot seat.
Don't you think the reason for the results should be taken into account? I think we can agree that the reason the offense struggled this year was due to the significant amount of injuries at key positions. It wasn't because they were lacking talent at those positions.





If the Vikings can solidify the OL in two years, wouldn't you want to see what this team could do?
Joined: Aug 2006
Deleted: Sept 12 2014
Reborn: Sept 17 2014

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 37385
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:08 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:I disagree. The only winning season Fraiser had was because of Peterson in 2012.


As opposed to the winning seasons Zimmer's had when he wasn't able to lean on Peterson? His only winning season came with a league-leading rushing performance by Peterson too. AD didn't run to the same historic level he did in 2012 but they were still heavily reliant on him in 2015.
Childress, I give him credit for taking the Vikings to the playoffs with Tarvaris but the NFC championship year was mostly the doing of Favre. Also note that neither of these coaches lost Peterson for any significant amount of time and that he also was in his prime.
They lost other key players. Their rosters had issues and they faced adversity too. Zimmer's not unique in that respect.
Don't you think the reason for the results should be taken into account?
Sure, but so should the decisions that led to them.
I think we can agree that the reason the offense struggled this year was due to the significant amount of injuries at key positions. It wasn't because they were lacking talent at those positions.
Unfortunately, I don't agree with that. I think the injuries (particularly Peterson's) had an impact on the season but I don't think they were THE reason the offense struggled. I think that would have happened without the injuries and I feel the talent on the offense is vastly overrated around here.
If the Vikings can solidify the OL in two years, wouldn't you want to see what this team could do?
I want to see what they can do every year. :) As I said, I'm not calling for Zimmer to be replaced (although they could replace Spielman tomorrow and I'd be fine with it). I just think, as Kapp and IrishViking indicated above, a 3rd losing season in 4 years might be grounds for dismissal or it could at least put Zimmer on the hot seat. Of course, it would depend on the nature of the season and that season is entirely hypothetical anyway. A second winning season, especially if they were really impressive, could change outlooks too.

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 11289
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by S197 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:21 pm

How could he have a 3rd losing season in 4 years when he only has 1 losing season so far?

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 37385
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:40 pm

S197 wrote:How could he have a 3rd losing season in 4 years when he only has 1 losing season so far?
Oops! Sorry, a third non-winning season...

.500 seasons are linguistically inconvenient!

Bottom line: I can't speak for anyone else but what I'm trying to express here is how I think the Wilfs might look at the situation and their history doesn't suggest we'll see a lot of patience with the coach if the team doesn't make the playoffs next year. They seem to have near-infinite patience with Spielman so who knows how that would impact him but I think, at the very least, missing the playoffs again could put Zimmer on the hot seat. that doesn't seem like a stretch so I don't think FiestaVike was wrong in suggesting the "fuse" has been lit.

User avatar
losperros
Commissioner
Posts: 10041
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:47 am
Location: Burbank, California

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by losperros » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:22 pm

Mothman wrote:Bottom line: I can't speak for anyone else but what I'm trying to express here is how I think the Wilfs might look at the situation and their history doesn't suggest we'll see a lot of patience with the coach if the team doesn't make the playoffs next year. They seem to have near-infinite patience with Spielman so who knows how that would impact him but I think, at the very least, missing the playoffs again could put Zimmer on the hot seat. that doesn't seem like a stretch so I don't think FiestaVike was wrong in suggesting the "fuse" has been lit.
Count me as one who thinks under the same circumstances the fuse would be lit for any other coach the Vikings have had since the Wilfs bought the team.

While I don't know if missing the playoffs will put Zimmer on the hot seat, especially if the Vikings have a 9-7 season, I think a losing season definitely will be bad for him. I'm hoping Zimmer can put things together for his sake but mostly for the team's sake.

I wouldn't bet on Spielman being fired for any reason. Not yet, anyway. I get the feeling Ziggy and company think he's doing a decent job. I have nothing really to base that on, aside from the "near-infinite patience" you mentioned.

PurpleKoolaid
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8363
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:04 pm

I think I am in the minority, but if this team starts 0-5, Rick is gone. 0-5 is a bad thing, losing Rick may be a good thing. He certainly has had plenty of chances tho see what he could add, which had been very little, compared to the power he has had. Compared to Tice who was told to get the hell off the field after a season.

I will be extremely upset if we dont make the playoffs in 2017, almost as upset as I am at Barr for a lackluster season. Its almost like Rick ready the papers, then picks the best of the lot instead of adding in all the other equations. This is really going to be hard to find a few gems.

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 5318
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote:I think I am in the minority, but if this team starts 0-5, Rick is gone. 0-5 is a bad thing, losing Rick may be a good thing. He certainly has had plenty of chances tho see what he could add, which had been very little, compared to the power he has had. Compared to Tice who was told to get the hell off the field after a season.

I will be extremely upset if we dont make the playoffs in 2017, almost as upset as I am at Barr for a lackluster season. Its almost like Rick ready the papers, then picks the best of the lot instead of adding in all the other equations. This is really going to be hard to find a few gems.
To say he's added very little is false. Has it been lopsided, yes. But he's brought in some of the best young defensive players in this league. Rhodes, Smith, Waynes, Barr, Kendricks, Hunter and signed Joseph. If it wasnt for Spielman, those guys probably wouldnt be here. On the offensive side, there are very little. But if guys like Treadwell pan out, it makes him look that much better. Either way, saying he brought in very little makes zero sense. The Browns and 49ers GMs brought in very little. And we aren't comparable to those teams.

And are you really going to knock on Barr? Two legit seasons and one slump and now "Rick just ready's the papers and picks the best of the lot". Come on man. Lets pump the brakes there.
Image

User avatar
IrishViking
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:02 am

Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by IrishViking » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:20 pm

I am honestly a little surprise by the opposition to the idea.

You are telling me that if we miss the playoffs again in anything other than lets say a 10-6 bizarre season where it comes down to the wire, meaning we go 8-8 again, people would be happy going into a 5th season with a couch who has lead us to a single playoff game and lost at home?

I am not saying THIS offseason, I am saying if we have another 8-8 year or a 7-9, 6-10 year. We will be looking at 4 years and a single playoff game that we lost. I simply don't see how you could categorize Zimmers Tenure as successful at that point. :confused:

I only bring it up because we have a BIG hill to climb. I know we have the rose colored off season glasses on but we need at least 3 completely new Olinemen to play WELL next year to have a shot on top of our defense needing to play as well as it was playing initially in the year for the whole season. I hope Zimmer can do it but if I had to put money on whether or not our offense and oline will be significantly better and our defense will continue to play at a high level next year... I'd say no.

Post Reply