Vikings grades: Offensive Line

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by chicagopurple » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:46 pm

Kalil is a failure. He is done. ANy team serious about contending would have already dropped his sorry ####.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by 808vikingsfan » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:45 pm

Found this link on another forum
2017 NFL FREE AGENCY TRACKER

Extracted OG and OT info

PFF GRADES for FA Guards
________ ______________grade_pos__age__team_snaps

Code: Select all

Kevin Zeitler    	  87.1	G	27	CIN	1087	UFA
T.J. Lang	          85.7	G	29	GB	791	UFA
Larry Warford	      82.0	G	26	DET	974	UFA
Austin Pasztor	     77.3	G	26	CLV	1020	UFA
Patrick Omameh	     77.1	G	27	JAX	454	UFA
Brian Winters      	77.1	G	26	NYJ	806	UFA
Stefen Wisniewski  	75.2	G	28	PHI	606	UFA
Evan Mathis	        74.9	G	35	ARZ	199	UFA
Ryan Jensen	        73.1	G	26	BLT	273	RFA
Ted Larsen	         72.3	G	30	CHI	581	UFA
Oday Aboushi	       71.9	G	26	HST	267	UFA
Tim Lelito	         70.5	G	28	NO	405	UFA
T.J. Johnson	       69.4	G	27	CIN	95	RFA
Brian Schwenke	     67.0	G	26	TEN	248	UFA
Vladimir Ducasse   	54.6	G	29	BLT	555	UFA
Chris Scott	        51.5	G	30	CAR	295	UFA
Chris Chester    	  50.5	G	34	ATL	1041	UFA
Chance Warmack     	46.6	G	25	TEN	134	UFA
Taylor Boggs          43.4	G	30	ARZ	99	UFA
Jonotthan Harrison	 41.8	G	26	IND	453	RFA
Tyler Shatley	      39.8	G	26	JAX	316	RFA
Hugh Thornton	      N/A	G	26	IND	0	UFA
PFF GRADES FA TACKLES

Code: Select all

Andrew Whitworth   	91.3	T	35	CIN	1064	UFA
Ricky Wagner	       84.5	T	27	BLT	926	UFA
Ty Nsekhe	          75.4	T	31	WAS	386	RFA
Christopher Hubbard   72.8	T	26	PIT	326	RFA
Cameron Fleming	    71.9	T	24	NE	284	RFA
Menelik Watson	     70.0	T	28	OAK	255	UFA
Riley Reiff	        67.5	T	28	DET	888	UFA
Marshall Newhouse	  67.2	T	28	NYG	461	UFA
Cornelius Lucas	    67.2	T	26	DET	41	RFA
Mike Remmers	       66.1	T	28	CAR	1106	UFA
Jake Long	          63.9	T	32	MIN	209	UFA
William Beatty 	    63.7	T	32	NYG	7	UFA
Eric Winston	       59.5	T	33	CIN	279	UFA
Matt McCants	       59.5	T	28	CHI	38	UFA
Sam Young	          53.2	T	30	MIA	146	UFA
Tony Hills	         50.5	T	32	NO	52	UFA
Josh Wells	         50.1	T	26	JAX	11	RFA
James Hurst	        49.0	T	25	BLT	305	RFA
Tom Compton	        47.6	T	28	ATL	69	UFA
Ben Ijalana	        47.6	T	28	NYJ	867	UFA
Jordan Mills	       44.2	T	26	BUF	1033	UFA
Don Barclay	        43.1	T	28	GB	144	UFA
Gosder Cherilus	    42.2	T	33	TB	219	UFA
Mike Adams	         40.8	T	27	CHI	93	UFA
Andre Smith Jr.	    39.3	T	30	MIN	182	UFA
Garry Gilliam  	    38.1	T	26	SEA	812	RFA
Matt Kalil	         36.9	T	28	MIN	121	UFA
Earl Watford	       33.9	T	27	ARZ	788	UFA
Bradley Sowell	     33.4	T	28	SEA	628	UFA
Sebastian Vollmer  	N/A	T	33	NE	0	UFA
Byron Bell	         N/A	T	28	TEN	0	UFA
Nick Becton	        N/A	T	27	CHI	0	UFA
David Quessenberry	 N/A	T	27	HST	0	UFA
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by halfgiz » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:46 pm

I think at this point the only starters we see returning for sure is Boone and Berger.
We need a quality LT and also we could use a RT, then we need to pickup at least a couple offensive line picks in the draft. Could we see a center picked?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:59 pm

chicagopurple wrote:Kalil is a failure. He is done. ANy team serious about contending would have already dropped his sorry ####.
Disagree 100%. TJ Clemmings is a failure. Kalil is nothing close to being that bad. IMO Kalil is serviceable. I wouldnt mind holding onto him if it's a small contract and letting him compete with someone.

Seattle is contending and I can guarantee you they would take him in a heartbeat. So your "ANY" comment doesnt fly
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:02 am

808vikingsfan wrote:Found this link on another forum
2017 NFL FREE AGENCY TRACKER

Extracted OG and OT info

PFF GRADES for FA Guards
________ ______________grade_pos__age__team_snaps

Code: Select all

Kevin Zeitler    	  87.1	G	27	CIN	1087	UFA
T.J. Lang	          85.7	G	29	GB	791	UFA
Larry Warford	      82.0	G	26	DET	974	UFA
Austin Pasztor	     77.3	G	26	CLV	1020	UFA
Patrick Omameh	     77.1	G	27	JAX	454	UFA
Brian Winters      	77.1	G	26	NYJ	806	UFA
Stefen Wisniewski  	75.2	G	28	PHI	606	UFA
Evan Mathis	        74.9	G	35	ARZ	199	UFA
Ryan Jensen	        73.1	G	26	BLT	273	RFA
Ted Larsen	         72.3	G	30	CHI	581	UFA
Oday Aboushi	       71.9	G	26	HST	267	UFA
Tim Lelito	         70.5	G	28	NO	405	UFA
T.J. Johnson	       69.4	G	27	CIN	95	RFA
Brian Schwenke	     67.0	G	26	TEN	248	UFA
Vladimir Ducasse   	54.6	G	29	BLT	555	UFA
Chris Scott	        51.5	G	30	CAR	295	UFA
Chris Chester    	  50.5	G	34	ATL	1041	UFA
Chance Warmack     	46.6	G	25	TEN	134	UFA
Taylor Boggs          43.4	G	30	ARZ	99	UFA
Jonotthan Harrison	 41.8	G	26	IND	453	RFA
Tyler Shatley	      39.8	G	26	JAX	316	RFA
Hugh Thornton	      N/A	G	26	IND	0	UFA
PFF GRADES FA TACKLES

Code: Select all

Andrew Whitworth   	91.3	T	35	CIN	1064	UFA
Ricky Wagner	       84.5	T	27	BLT	926	UFA
Ty Nsekhe	          75.4	T	31	WAS	386	RFA
Christopher Hubbard   72.8	T	26	PIT	326	RFA
Cameron Fleming	    71.9	T	24	NE	284	RFA
Menelik Watson	     70.0	T	28	OAK	255	UFA
Riley Reiff	        67.5	T	28	DET	888	UFA
Marshall Newhouse	  67.2	T	28	NYG	461	UFA
Cornelius Lucas	    67.2	T	26	DET	41	RFA
Mike Remmers	       66.1	T	28	CAR	1106	UFA
Jake Long	          63.9	T	32	MIN	209	UFA
William Beatty 	    63.7	T	32	NYG	7	UFA
Eric Winston	       59.5	T	33	CIN	279	UFA
Matt McCants	       59.5	T	28	CHI	38	UFA
Sam Young	          53.2	T	30	MIA	146	UFA
Tony Hills	         50.5	T	32	NO	52	UFA
Josh Wells	         50.1	T	26	JAX	11	RFA
James Hurst	        49.0	T	25	BLT	305	RFA
Tom Compton	        47.6	T	28	ATL	69	UFA
Ben Ijalana	        47.6	T	28	NYJ	867	UFA
Jordan Mills	       44.2	T	26	BUF	1033	UFA
Don Barclay	        43.1	T	28	GB	144	UFA
Gosder Cherilus	    42.2	T	33	TB	219	UFA
Mike Adams	         40.8	T	27	CHI	93	UFA
Andre Smith Jr.	    39.3	T	30	MIN	182	UFA
Garry Gilliam  	    38.1	T	26	SEA	812	RFA
Matt Kalil	         36.9	T	28	MIN	121	UFA
Earl Watford	       33.9	T	27	ARZ	788	UFA
Bradley Sowell	     33.4	T	28	SEA	628	UFA
Sebastian Vollmer  	N/A	T	33	NE	0	UFA
Byron Bell	         N/A	T	28	TEN	0	UFA
Nick Becton	        N/A	T	27	CHI	0	UFA
David Quessenberry	 N/A	T	27	HST	0	UFA
Great info there 808!!! I had us signing Wagner for OT and Omameh for guard in my mock. Both are towards the top of the lists
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:24 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Disagree 100%. TJ Clemmings is a failure. Kalil is nothing close to being that bad. IMO Kalil is serviceable. I wouldnt mind holding onto him if it's a small contract and letting him compete with someone.

Seattle is contending and I can guarantee you they would take him in a heartbeat. So your "ANY" comment doesnt fly
Kalil is a failure relative to his draft position. Even when healthy outside of his rookie campaign most of his career he has been average at best. He has had injury problems most seasons he has played. Hindsight is 20/20, when we took him, he was a consensus best Tackle in the draft. He had all the goods and was not considered a reach for a #4 pick.

The reality is I'm not sure we can handle grabbing 2 tackles via FA. I think we are better off trying to retain Kalil and then signing a big ticket FA G and FA T. Scheme is going to be very important in who they add. If they are set on Sparano's power technique then they need to find guys that do that well. If all the guys are zone oriented then we should ask if Sparano is still the right guy to lead the bunch?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:36 am

mansquatch wrote:The reality is I'm not sure we can handle grabbing 2 tackles via FA. I think we are better off trying to retain Kalil and then signing a big ticket FA G and FA T.
At this point, retaining Kalil is signing a free agent. The problem with re-signing him and also signing a "big ticket" guard and tackle in free agency is there's a good chance they'll end up paying a premium for 3 players who may not necessarily be worth a premium price. At this point, I'm not sure Boone was either. A lot would depend on the nature of the deals, of course, but signing 3 more free agents to start might not be a good long term strategy in cap management terms or in terms of value for the money.

I don't know... their options are limited so it will be interesting to see what they do. It's astounding to me that the roster has been managed so the Vikings literally don't have a starting-caliber offensive tackle under contract for 2017 or a first round pick to spend on one.

What a mess...
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:04 am

Mothman wrote: At this point, retaining Kalil is signing a free agent. The problem with re-signing him and also signing a "big ticket" guard and tackle in free agency is there's a good chance they'll end up paying a premium for 3 players who may not necessarily be worth a premium price. At this point, I'm not sure Boone was either. A lot would depend on the nature of the deals, of course, but signing 3 more free agents to start might not be a good long term strategy in cap management terms or in terms of value for the money.

I don't know... their options are limited so it will be interesting to see what they do. It's astounding to me that the roster has been managed so the Vikings literally don't have a starting-caliber offensive tackle under contract for 2017 or a first round pick to spend on one.

What a mess...
Its pretty disheartening. I think they'll have to clear some cap space and front load the hell out of a couple contracts for at least two, if not three FA offensive linemen if they want to turn that unit around while the "window is open".

I expect that in reality they will bring back Kalil and sign one mid range FA comparable to Boone (RG or RT). If they can just get competent play imagine how much better Bradford could be. So I think that's - unfortunately!- going to be the formula. I'll be quite surprised if two of the first three draft picks don't include DT, MLB, or S along with one Offensive Lineman.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:08 am

Yeah it ain't pretty.

Boon was $26MM contract or something like that, so while the hit isn't small, it isn't monstrous either. The tackle position is a disaster right now. Really it is a breakdown on multiple fronts.

Their high draft picks both ended up as injury riddled husks. Sullivan got cut for a similar reason. Is this bad eval, bad luck, or bad strength and conditioning?
They have failed to achieve any hits at Tackle with late round picks
The coaching staff across at past two HC has failed to do a good enough job developing the talent they do have

I sincerely hope that everything the organization is doing with regards to OL is under the microscope. They are literally failing everywhere with regards to this position group.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:11 am

fiestavike wrote:Its pretty disheartening. I think they'll have to clear some cap space and front load the hell out of a couple contracts for at least two, if not three FA offensive linemen if they want to turn that unit around while the "window is open".
I think that's one of several indications that the window probably isn't actually open yet. :)
I expect that in reality they will bring back Kalil and sign one mid range FA comparable to Boone (RG or RT). If they can just get competent play imagine how much better Bradford could be. So I think that's - unfortunately!- going to be the formula. I'll be quite surprised if two of the first three draft picks don't include DT, MLB, or S along with one Offensive Lineman.
I'll certainly be surprised if one of those first 3 picks isn't a defensive player.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:29 am

They might go DL. Sharif Floyd is looking like a draft bust, durability again the issue. However, they are fools if they do not try to add a significant amount of OL talent. How many seasons of awful do we have to endure?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:48 am

mansquatch wrote:They might go DL. Sharif Floyd is looking like a draft bust, durability again the issue. However, they are fools if they do not try to add a significant amount of OL talent. How many seasons of awful do we have to endure?
See I look at Floyd like I've always looked at Rudy. When healthy, they are above average. But the key is.....when healthy. I wouldnt say Floyd is a bust. The word "bust" is so broadly used. Christian Ponder is a bust. He was given plenty of chances and proved he was terrible. Shariff Floyd is a good DT. He's showed that when he's been in there. He just cant stay healthy. That doesnt scream the word "bust" to me. I dont know. I guess I just look at it differently than some
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:57 am

Mothman wrote: At this point, retaining Kalil is signing a free agent. The problem with re-signing him and also signing a "big ticket" guard and tackle in free agency is there's a good chance they'll end up paying a premium for 3 players who may not necessarily be worth a premium price. At this point, I'm not sure Boone was either. A lot would depend on the nature of the deals, of course, but signing 3 more free agents to start might not be a good long term strategy in cap management terms or in terms of value for the money.

I don't know... their options are limited so it will be interesting to see what they do. It's astounding to me that the roster has been managed so the Vikings literally don't have a starting-caliber offensive tackle under contract for 2017 or a first round pick to spend on one.

What a mess...
One thing I will say about Boone....having the worst tackle of the entire decade on your left the majority of the season, probably doesnt help you a whole lot. He still graded out fairly well according to PFF but literally had the worst tackle of the decade next to him. If you put someone halfway decent to good next to him, he could look a lot better as well.

I saw a mock offseason the other day and it had us signing Wagner AND Zeitler and paying them both around $40 million over 4-5 years. Unrealistic? Possibly but the more I looked at it, the more I thought that I would be 100% all for it. Especially if we let AP walk, we should have the cap room.

That would give us a starting OL of:

LT: ????
LG: Boone
C: Berger
RG: Zeitler
RT: Wagner

That's pretty legit if you ask me. We could keep Kalil, sign Whitworth to a 1-2 year deal, draft a LT, hold onto Rashod Hill.

The thing I like about it most is that it doesnt put AS MUCH pressure on us to draft OL come draft day. They definitely still need to draft OL regardless and pick AT LEAST one OL early but it wouldnt force us to spend our first 3 out of 4 picks on them.

It gives us opportunity to touch on other spots early in the draft such as RB, DT, OLB, TE, etc.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:37 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:One thing I will say about Boone....having the worst tackle of the entire decade on your left the majority of the season, probably doesnt help you a whole lot. He still graded out fairly well according to PFF but literally had the worst tackle of the decade next to him. If you put someone halfway decent to good next to him, he could look a lot better as well.

I saw a mock offseason the other day and it had us signing Wagner AND Zeitler and paying them both around $40 million over 4-5 years. Unrealistic? Possibly but the more I looked at it, the more I thought that I would be 100% all for it. Especially if we let AP walk, we should have the cap room.

That would give us a starting OL of:

LT: ????
LG: Boone
C: Berger
RG: Zeitler
RT: Wagner

That's pretty legit if you ask me. We could keep Kalil, sign Whitworth to a 1-2 year deal, draft a LT, hold onto Rashod Hill.

The thing I like about it most is that it doesnt put AS MUCH pressure on us to draft OL come draft day. They definitely still need to draft OL regardless and pick AT LEAST one OL early but it wouldnt force us to spend our first 3 out of 4 picks on them.

It gives us opportunity to touch on other spots early in the draft such as RB, DT, OLB, TE, etc.
It's hard to imagine both Zeitler and Whitworth hitting free agency without the Bengals re-signing at least one of them and I find it even more difficult to imagine the Vikings signing 3 of the top OL free agents in one offseason.

The Steelers signed David DeCastro (who was drafted just a few picks above Zeitler in 2012) to a 5 year, $50 million contract in 2016 so I imagine Zeitler and his agent will look for a similar deal. Even if the Vikes got him at $40 million for 4-5 years, investing $8-10 million a year in the RG position after signing Boone to a $27 million, 4 year contract and then signing 3 free agent tackles (Kalil, Whitworth and Wagner) seems unlikely, not to mention potentially cost-prohibitive.

I think there's a good chance Wagner will never hit free agency either. It's not a deep market for tackles so if he does, there would probably be competition for him which could drive his price up.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:51 pm

This is where scenario analysis comes into play IMO. The Vikings have bigger needs at T than at G. But competition will be stiff.

Scenario A: They get a top FA at G and T
Scenario B: They get a top FA T and then draft for depth
Scenario C: They get a top FA T and a lesser FA T/G, then draft for future
Scenario D: Reverse C and grab top G, lesser T
Scenario E: They sign nobody, and draft (This would piss a lot of people off)
Scenario F: They avoid big spending (possible, Spielman likes to say he does that) and then sign some 2nd tier guys (See last year...)
Scenario XYZ: Something else I didn't think of

The X-Factor in all of this is the perception of a superbowl window being open. Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, I think it fair to assume that the Vikings believe this to be true. (see Sam Bradford Trade.)

Given the X Factor I think they are going to grab a top FA OL in an effort to win now. I think Scenario C is most likely and D is second most likely assuming they lose out on a top T.

Let's just face the facts: Tackle is a dumpster fire and it would be criminal for them to waste another season of a competitive roster by allowing TJ Clemmings to see any playing time. They should play the song "Sabotage" by the Beastie Boys every time a coach even thinks about allowing him to set foot on the field. They have to address this in March and it might mean breaking the bank to make it happen. The needs on the inside are nowhere near as critical as the need at T.
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