Vikings grades: Offensive Line

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by chicagopurple » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:46 pm

Kalil is a failure. He is done. ANy team serious about contending would have already dropped his sorry ####.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by 808vikingsfan » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:45 pm

Found this link on another forum
2017 NFL FREE AGENCY TRACKER

Extracted OG and OT info

PFF GRADES for FA Guards
________ ______________grade_pos__age__team_snaps

Code: Select all

Kevin Zeitler    	  87.1	G	27	CIN	1087	UFA
T.J. Lang	          85.7	G	29	GB	791	UFA
Larry Warford	      82.0	G	26	DET	974	UFA
Austin Pasztor	     77.3	G	26	CLV	1020	UFA
Patrick Omameh	     77.1	G	27	JAX	454	UFA
Brian Winters      	77.1	G	26	NYJ	806	UFA
Stefen Wisniewski  	75.2	G	28	PHI	606	UFA
Evan Mathis	        74.9	G	35	ARZ	199	UFA
Ryan Jensen	        73.1	G	26	BLT	273	RFA
Ted Larsen	         72.3	G	30	CHI	581	UFA
Oday Aboushi	       71.9	G	26	HST	267	UFA
Tim Lelito	         70.5	G	28	NO	405	UFA
T.J. Johnson	       69.4	G	27	CIN	95	RFA
Brian Schwenke	     67.0	G	26	TEN	248	UFA
Vladimir Ducasse   	54.6	G	29	BLT	555	UFA
Chris Scott	        51.5	G	30	CAR	295	UFA
Chris Chester    	  50.5	G	34	ATL	1041	UFA
Chance Warmack     	46.6	G	25	TEN	134	UFA
Taylor Boggs          43.4	G	30	ARZ	99	UFA
Jonotthan Harrison	 41.8	G	26	IND	453	RFA
Tyler Shatley	      39.8	G	26	JAX	316	RFA
Hugh Thornton	      N/A	G	26	IND	0	UFA
PFF GRADES FA TACKLES

Code: Select all

Andrew Whitworth   	91.3	T	35	CIN	1064	UFA
Ricky Wagner	       84.5	T	27	BLT	926	UFA
Ty Nsekhe	          75.4	T	31	WAS	386	RFA
Christopher Hubbard   72.8	T	26	PIT	326	RFA
Cameron Fleming	    71.9	T	24	NE	284	RFA
Menelik Watson	     70.0	T	28	OAK	255	UFA
Riley Reiff	        67.5	T	28	DET	888	UFA
Marshall Newhouse	  67.2	T	28	NYG	461	UFA
Cornelius Lucas	    67.2	T	26	DET	41	RFA
Mike Remmers	       66.1	T	28	CAR	1106	UFA
Jake Long	          63.9	T	32	MIN	209	UFA
William Beatty 	    63.7	T	32	NYG	7	UFA
Eric Winston	       59.5	T	33	CIN	279	UFA
Matt McCants	       59.5	T	28	CHI	38	UFA
Sam Young	          53.2	T	30	MIA	146	UFA
Tony Hills	         50.5	T	32	NO	52	UFA
Josh Wells	         50.1	T	26	JAX	11	RFA
James Hurst	        49.0	T	25	BLT	305	RFA
Tom Compton	        47.6	T	28	ATL	69	UFA
Ben Ijalana	        47.6	T	28	NYJ	867	UFA
Jordan Mills	       44.2	T	26	BUF	1033	UFA
Don Barclay	        43.1	T	28	GB	144	UFA
Gosder Cherilus	    42.2	T	33	TB	219	UFA
Mike Adams	         40.8	T	27	CHI	93	UFA
Andre Smith Jr.	    39.3	T	30	MIN	182	UFA
Garry Gilliam  	    38.1	T	26	SEA	812	RFA
Matt Kalil	         36.9	T	28	MIN	121	UFA
Earl Watford	       33.9	T	27	ARZ	788	UFA
Bradley Sowell	     33.4	T	28	SEA	628	UFA
Sebastian Vollmer  	N/A	T	33	NE	0	UFA
Byron Bell	         N/A	T	28	TEN	0	UFA
Nick Becton	        N/A	T	27	CHI	0	UFA
David Quessenberry	 N/A	T	27	HST	0	UFA
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by halfgiz » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:46 pm

I think at this point the only starters we see returning for sure is Boone and Berger.
We need a quality LT and also we could use a RT, then we need to pickup at least a couple offensive line picks in the draft. Could we see a center picked?

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:59 pm

chicagopurple wrote:Kalil is a failure. He is done. ANy team serious about contending would have already dropped his sorry ####.
Disagree 100%. TJ Clemmings is a failure. Kalil is nothing close to being that bad. IMO Kalil is serviceable. I wouldnt mind holding onto him if it's a small contract and letting him compete with someone.

Seattle is contending and I can guarantee you they would take him in a heartbeat. So your "ANY" comment doesnt fly
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:02 am

808vikingsfan wrote:Found this link on another forum
2017 NFL FREE AGENCY TRACKER

Extracted OG and OT info

PFF GRADES for FA Guards
________ ______________grade_pos__age__team_snaps

Code: Select all

Kevin Zeitler    	  87.1	G	27	CIN	1087	UFA
T.J. Lang	          85.7	G	29	GB	791	UFA
Larry Warford	      82.0	G	26	DET	974	UFA
Austin Pasztor	     77.3	G	26	CLV	1020	UFA
Patrick Omameh	     77.1	G	27	JAX	454	UFA
Brian Winters      	77.1	G	26	NYJ	806	UFA
Stefen Wisniewski  	75.2	G	28	PHI	606	UFA
Evan Mathis	        74.9	G	35	ARZ	199	UFA
Ryan Jensen	        73.1	G	26	BLT	273	RFA
Ted Larsen	         72.3	G	30	CHI	581	UFA
Oday Aboushi	       71.9	G	26	HST	267	UFA
Tim Lelito	         70.5	G	28	NO	405	UFA
T.J. Johnson	       69.4	G	27	CIN	95	RFA
Brian Schwenke	     67.0	G	26	TEN	248	UFA
Vladimir Ducasse   	54.6	G	29	BLT	555	UFA
Chris Scott	        51.5	G	30	CAR	295	UFA
Chris Chester    	  50.5	G	34	ATL	1041	UFA
Chance Warmack     	46.6	G	25	TEN	134	UFA
Taylor Boggs          43.4	G	30	ARZ	99	UFA
Jonotthan Harrison	 41.8	G	26	IND	453	RFA
Tyler Shatley	      39.8	G	26	JAX	316	RFA
Hugh Thornton	      N/A	G	26	IND	0	UFA
PFF GRADES FA TACKLES

Code: Select all

Andrew Whitworth   	91.3	T	35	CIN	1064	UFA
Ricky Wagner	       84.5	T	27	BLT	926	UFA
Ty Nsekhe	          75.4	T	31	WAS	386	RFA
Christopher Hubbard   72.8	T	26	PIT	326	RFA
Cameron Fleming	    71.9	T	24	NE	284	RFA
Menelik Watson	     70.0	T	28	OAK	255	UFA
Riley Reiff	        67.5	T	28	DET	888	UFA
Marshall Newhouse	  67.2	T	28	NYG	461	UFA
Cornelius Lucas	    67.2	T	26	DET	41	RFA
Mike Remmers	       66.1	T	28	CAR	1106	UFA
Jake Long	          63.9	T	32	MIN	209	UFA
William Beatty 	    63.7	T	32	NYG	7	UFA
Eric Winston	       59.5	T	33	CIN	279	UFA
Matt McCants	       59.5	T	28	CHI	38	UFA
Sam Young	          53.2	T	30	MIA	146	UFA
Tony Hills	         50.5	T	32	NO	52	UFA
Josh Wells	         50.1	T	26	JAX	11	RFA
James Hurst	        49.0	T	25	BLT	305	RFA
Tom Compton	        47.6	T	28	ATL	69	UFA
Ben Ijalana	        47.6	T	28	NYJ	867	UFA
Jordan Mills	       44.2	T	26	BUF	1033	UFA
Don Barclay	        43.1	T	28	GB	144	UFA
Gosder Cherilus	    42.2	T	33	TB	219	UFA
Mike Adams	         40.8	T	27	CHI	93	UFA
Andre Smith Jr.	    39.3	T	30	MIN	182	UFA
Garry Gilliam  	    38.1	T	26	SEA	812	RFA
Matt Kalil	         36.9	T	28	MIN	121	UFA
Earl Watford	       33.9	T	27	ARZ	788	UFA
Bradley Sowell	     33.4	T	28	SEA	628	UFA
Sebastian Vollmer  	N/A	T	33	NE	0	UFA
Byron Bell	         N/A	T	28	TEN	0	UFA
Nick Becton	        N/A	T	27	CHI	0	UFA
David Quessenberry	 N/A	T	27	HST	0	UFA
Great info there 808!!! I had us signing Wagner for OT and Omameh for guard in my mock. Both are towards the top of the lists
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:24 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Disagree 100%. TJ Clemmings is a failure. Kalil is nothing close to being that bad. IMO Kalil is serviceable. I wouldnt mind holding onto him if it's a small contract and letting him compete with someone.

Seattle is contending and I can guarantee you they would take him in a heartbeat. So your "ANY" comment doesnt fly
Kalil is a failure relative to his draft position. Even when healthy outside of his rookie campaign most of his career he has been average at best. He has had injury problems most seasons he has played. Hindsight is 20/20, when we took him, he was a consensus best Tackle in the draft. He had all the goods and was not considered a reach for a #4 pick.

The reality is I'm not sure we can handle grabbing 2 tackles via FA. I think we are better off trying to retain Kalil and then signing a big ticket FA G and FA T. Scheme is going to be very important in who they add. If they are set on Sparano's power technique then they need to find guys that do that well. If all the guys are zone oriented then we should ask if Sparano is still the right guy to lead the bunch?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:36 am

mansquatch wrote:The reality is I'm not sure we can handle grabbing 2 tackles via FA. I think we are better off trying to retain Kalil and then signing a big ticket FA G and FA T.
At this point, retaining Kalil is signing a free agent. The problem with re-signing him and also signing a "big ticket" guard and tackle in free agency is there's a good chance they'll end up paying a premium for 3 players who may not necessarily be worth a premium price. At this point, I'm not sure Boone was either. A lot would depend on the nature of the deals, of course, but signing 3 more free agents to start might not be a good long term strategy in cap management terms or in terms of value for the money.

I don't know... their options are limited so it will be interesting to see what they do. It's astounding to me that the roster has been managed so the Vikings literally don't have a starting-caliber offensive tackle under contract for 2017 or a first round pick to spend on one.

What a mess...

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:04 am

Mothman wrote: At this point, retaining Kalil is signing a free agent. The problem with re-signing him and also signing a "big ticket" guard and tackle in free agency is there's a good chance they'll end up paying a premium for 3 players who may not necessarily be worth a premium price. At this point, I'm not sure Boone was either. A lot would depend on the nature of the deals, of course, but signing 3 more free agents to start might not be a good long term strategy in cap management terms or in terms of value for the money.

I don't know... their options are limited so it will be interesting to see what they do. It's astounding to me that the roster has been managed so the Vikings literally don't have a starting-caliber offensive tackle under contract for 2017 or a first round pick to spend on one.

What a mess...
Its pretty disheartening. I think they'll have to clear some cap space and front load the hell out of a couple contracts for at least two, if not three FA offensive linemen if they want to turn that unit around while the "window is open".

I expect that in reality they will bring back Kalil and sign one mid range FA comparable to Boone (RG or RT). If they can just get competent play imagine how much better Bradford could be. So I think that's - unfortunately!- going to be the formula. I'll be quite surprised if two of the first three draft picks don't include DT, MLB, or S along with one Offensive Lineman.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:08 am

Yeah it ain't pretty.

Boon was $26MM contract or something like that, so while the hit isn't small, it isn't monstrous either. The tackle position is a disaster right now. Really it is a breakdown on multiple fronts.

Their high draft picks both ended up as injury riddled husks. Sullivan got cut for a similar reason. Is this bad eval, bad luck, or bad strength and conditioning?
They have failed to achieve any hits at Tackle with late round picks
The coaching staff across at past two HC has failed to do a good enough job developing the talent they do have

I sincerely hope that everything the organization is doing with regards to OL is under the microscope. They are literally failing everywhere with regards to this position group.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:11 am

fiestavike wrote:Its pretty disheartening. I think they'll have to clear some cap space and front load the hell out of a couple contracts for at least two, if not three FA offensive linemen if they want to turn that unit around while the "window is open".
I think that's one of several indications that the window probably isn't actually open yet. :)
I expect that in reality they will bring back Kalil and sign one mid range FA comparable to Boone (RG or RT). If they can just get competent play imagine how much better Bradford could be. So I think that's - unfortunately!- going to be the formula. I'll be quite surprised if two of the first three draft picks don't include DT, MLB, or S along with one Offensive Lineman.
I'll certainly be surprised if one of those first 3 picks isn't a defensive player.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:29 am

They might go DL. Sharif Floyd is looking like a draft bust, durability again the issue. However, they are fools if they do not try to add a significant amount of OL talent. How many seasons of awful do we have to endure?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:48 am

mansquatch wrote:They might go DL. Sharif Floyd is looking like a draft bust, durability again the issue. However, they are fools if they do not try to add a significant amount of OL talent. How many seasons of awful do we have to endure?
See I look at Floyd like I've always looked at Rudy. When healthy, they are above average. But the key is.....when healthy. I wouldnt say Floyd is a bust. The word "bust" is so broadly used. Christian Ponder is a bust. He was given plenty of chances and proved he was terrible. Shariff Floyd is a good DT. He's showed that when he's been in there. He just cant stay healthy. That doesnt scream the word "bust" to me. I dont know. I guess I just look at it differently than some
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:57 am

Mothman wrote: At this point, retaining Kalil is signing a free agent. The problem with re-signing him and also signing a "big ticket" guard and tackle in free agency is there's a good chance they'll end up paying a premium for 3 players who may not necessarily be worth a premium price. At this point, I'm not sure Boone was either. A lot would depend on the nature of the deals, of course, but signing 3 more free agents to start might not be a good long term strategy in cap management terms or in terms of value for the money.

I don't know... their options are limited so it will be interesting to see what they do. It's astounding to me that the roster has been managed so the Vikings literally don't have a starting-caliber offensive tackle under contract for 2017 or a first round pick to spend on one.

What a mess...
One thing I will say about Boone....having the worst tackle of the entire decade on your left the majority of the season, probably doesnt help you a whole lot. He still graded out fairly well according to PFF but literally had the worst tackle of the decade next to him. If you put someone halfway decent to good next to him, he could look a lot better as well.

I saw a mock offseason the other day and it had us signing Wagner AND Zeitler and paying them both around $40 million over 4-5 years. Unrealistic? Possibly but the more I looked at it, the more I thought that I would be 100% all for it. Especially if we let AP walk, we should have the cap room.

That would give us a starting OL of:

LT: ????
LG: Boone
C: Berger
RG: Zeitler
RT: Wagner

That's pretty legit if you ask me. We could keep Kalil, sign Whitworth to a 1-2 year deal, draft a LT, hold onto Rashod Hill.

The thing I like about it most is that it doesnt put AS MUCH pressure on us to draft OL come draft day. They definitely still need to draft OL regardless and pick AT LEAST one OL early but it wouldnt force us to spend our first 3 out of 4 picks on them.

It gives us opportunity to touch on other spots early in the draft such as RB, DT, OLB, TE, etc.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Mothman » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:37 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:One thing I will say about Boone....having the worst tackle of the entire decade on your left the majority of the season, probably doesnt help you a whole lot. He still graded out fairly well according to PFF but literally had the worst tackle of the decade next to him. If you put someone halfway decent to good next to him, he could look a lot better as well.

I saw a mock offseason the other day and it had us signing Wagner AND Zeitler and paying them both around $40 million over 4-5 years. Unrealistic? Possibly but the more I looked at it, the more I thought that I would be 100% all for it. Especially if we let AP walk, we should have the cap room.

That would give us a starting OL of:

LT: ????
LG: Boone
C: Berger
RG: Zeitler
RT: Wagner

That's pretty legit if you ask me. We could keep Kalil, sign Whitworth to a 1-2 year deal, draft a LT, hold onto Rashod Hill.

The thing I like about it most is that it doesnt put AS MUCH pressure on us to draft OL come draft day. They definitely still need to draft OL regardless and pick AT LEAST one OL early but it wouldnt force us to spend our first 3 out of 4 picks on them.

It gives us opportunity to touch on other spots early in the draft such as RB, DT, OLB, TE, etc.
It's hard to imagine both Zeitler and Whitworth hitting free agency without the Bengals re-signing at least one of them and I find it even more difficult to imagine the Vikings signing 3 of the top OL free agents in one offseason.

The Steelers signed David DeCastro (who was drafted just a few picks above Zeitler in 2012) to a 5 year, $50 million contract in 2016 so I imagine Zeitler and his agent will look for a similar deal. Even if the Vikes got him at $40 million for 4-5 years, investing $8-10 million a year in the RG position after signing Boone to a $27 million, 4 year contract and then signing 3 free agent tackles (Kalil, Whitworth and Wagner) seems unlikely, not to mention potentially cost-prohibitive.

I think there's a good chance Wagner will never hit free agency either. It's not a deep market for tackles so if he does, there would probably be competition for him which could drive his price up.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:51 pm

This is where scenario analysis comes into play IMO. The Vikings have bigger needs at T than at G. But competition will be stiff.

Scenario A: They get a top FA at G and T
Scenario B: They get a top FA T and then draft for depth
Scenario C: They get a top FA T and a lesser FA T/G, then draft for future
Scenario D: Reverse C and grab top G, lesser T
Scenario E: They sign nobody, and draft (This would piss a lot of people off)
Scenario F: They avoid big spending (possible, Spielman likes to say he does that) and then sign some 2nd tier guys (See last year...)
Scenario XYZ: Something else I didn't think of

The X-Factor in all of this is the perception of a superbowl window being open. Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, I think it fair to assume that the Vikings believe this to be true. (see Sam Bradford Trade.)

Given the X Factor I think they are going to grab a top FA OL in an effort to win now. I think Scenario C is most likely and D is second most likely assuming they lose out on a top T.

Let's just face the facts: Tackle is a dumpster fire and it would be criminal for them to waste another season of a competitive roster by allowing TJ Clemmings to see any playing time. They should play the song "Sabotage" by the Beastie Boys every time a coach even thinks about allowing him to set foot on the field. They have to address this in March and it might mean breaking the bank to make it happen. The needs on the inside are nowhere near as critical as the need at T.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by halfgiz » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:54 pm

I'm sorry but Kalil is a dumpster fire. And if you think we will get him cheap. :lol:
Go to Norseman they done and article on Kalil last year, other than his rookie year he has been in the bottom 1/3 of the heap.
2015 he had both knees scoped, this year he had the hip problem.
Even Long was rated ahead of him this year.
To improve we need better players, which means moving on from Kalil.

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2015/4/20/ ... matt-kalil

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:45 pm

mansquatch wrote:This is where scenario analysis comes into play IMO. The Vikings have bigger needs at T than at G. But competition will be stiff.

Scenario A: They get a top FA at G and T
Scenario B: They get a top FA T and then draft for depth
Scenario C: They get a top FA T and a lesser FA T/G, then draft for future
Scenario D: Reverse C and grab top G, lesser T
Scenario E: They sign nobody, and draft (This would piss a lot of people off)
Scenario F: They avoid big spending (possible, Spielman likes to say he does that) and then sign some 2nd tier guys (See last year...)
Scenario XYZ: Something else I didn't think of

The X-Factor in all of this is the perception of a superbowl window being open. Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, I think it fair to assume that the Vikings believe this to be true. (see Sam Bradford Trade.)

Given the X Factor I think they are going to grab a top FA OL in an effort to win now. I think Scenario C is most likely and D is second most likely assuming they lose out on a top T.

Let's just face the facts: Tackle is a dumpster fire and it would be criminal for them to waste another season of a competitive roster by allowing TJ Clemmings to see any playing time. They should play the song "Sabotage" by the Beastie Boys every time a coach even thinks about allowing him to set foot on the field. They have to address this in March and it might mean breaking the bank to make it happen. The needs on the inside are nowhere near as critical as the need at T.
Its fun to think about. I really think the decision to stick with Shurmur gives some indication about their approach. Its not going to make sense to chase a top FA Tackle if we'll be running a quick hitting WC offense. Just get the line somewhere near the middle of the pack and invest to create a truly dominant Defense.

Its a defensible position to take from a GM perspective. If they would have had a different OC and offensive system, investing in top tier OL and keeping Peterson might make sense, but since I don't think they can do both of those things anyway financially, that probably weighed into the decision to commit to Shurmur/Bradford for the next 2-3 seasons.

Its absolutely not my first choice, but the way things have shaken out since the start of last years preseason has forced them to change directions, and this seems to be the direction they and moving in now.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by MrPurplenGold » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:36 pm

fiestavike wrote: Its fun to think about. I really think the decision to stick with Shurmur gives some indication about their approach. Its not going to make sense to chase a top FA Tackle if we'll be running a quick hitting WC offense. Just get the line somewhere near the middle of the pack and invest to create a truly dominant Defense.

Its a defensible position to take from a GM perspective. If they would have had a different OC and offensive system, investing in top tier OL and keeping Peterson might make sense, but since I don't think they can do both of those things anyway financially, that probably weighed into the decision to commit to Shurmur/Bradford for the next 2-3 seasons.

Its absolutely not my first choice, but the way things have shaken out since the start of last years preseason has forced them to change directions, and this seems to be the direction they and moving in now.
For the most part I agree with this. There's no way to completely fix the offensive line. With the quick hitting offense I think they try to sign a top guard so that Bradford can have a better chance at moving up in the pocket when the tackles get beat. The best graded lineman are Boone and Berger, so if they can solidify the interior I think that's going to be the best option.

I think if Khalil is willing to resign as a backup, he can at least provide depth and you draft a Tackle with the 2nd round pick and let Hill and Sirles develop as your tackles.

So our line would be
LT Hill, rookie , Khalil
LG Boone, Berger
C berger , Easton
RG FA, Fusco
RT Sirles, Clemmings, rookie

One of those won't make the roster, and my guess it would be Khalil doesn't get resigned or Clemmings is cut

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:49 pm

MrPurplenGold wrote: So our line would be
LT Hill, rookie , Khalil
LG Boone, Berger
C berger , Easton
RG FA, Fusco
RT Sirles, Clemmings, rookie

One of those won't make the roster, and my guess it would be Khalil doesn't get resigned or Clemmings is cut
I think Clemmings will be cut and Kalil will be too expensive to sit on the bench.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by halfgiz » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:13 pm

MrPurplenGold wrote:
For the most part I agree with this. There's no way to completely fix the offensive line. With the quick hitting offense I think they try to sign a top guard so that Bradford can have a better chance at moving up in the pocket when the tackles get beat. The best graded lineman are Boone and Berger, so if they can solidify the interior I think that's going to be the best option.

I think if Khalil is willing to resign as a backup, he can at least provide depth and you draft a Tackle with the 2nd round pick and let Hill and Sirles develop as your tackles.

So our line would be
LT Hill, rookie , Khalil
LG Boone, Berger
C berger , Easton
RG FA, Fusco
RT Sirles, Clemmings, rookie

One of those won't make the roster, and my guess it would be Khalil doesn't get resigned or Clemmings is cut
I think that Sirles is better suited at the guard position. The only reason he played tackle this season was because of injuries.
Kalil will test the market, he won't sign as a backup.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:05 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:found this article from another forum

The future of the Vikings, part 4: The offensive line
Those two GIFs of Clemmings ... wow. If that doesn't sum up his utter hopelessness, nothing does.

I don't think I've ever seen a tackle LITERALLY whiff on a rusher like the play against Houston. Didn't get a finger on a guy who was right in front of him!

And the Bears vid. Holy cow. He's 320 pounds and gets blasted straight into Bradford's face. Unbelievable!

Yeah, we need serious help on the line.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:18 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Those two GIFs of Clemmings ... wow. If that doesn't sum up his utter hopelessness, nothing does.

I don't think I've ever seen a tackle LITERALLY whiff on a rusher like the play against Houston. Didn't get a finger on a guy who was right in front of him!

And the Bears vid. Holy cow. He's 320 pounds and gets blasted straight into Bradford's face. Unbelievable!

Yeah, we need serious help on the line.

OL is only as good as its weakest link. Vikings always seem to have one really bad lineman. Charlie Johnson was almost as bad as Clemmings. I think they're closer to shoring up the line than most people think.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by halfgiz » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:41 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
OL is only as good as its weakest link. Vikings always seem to have one really bad lineman. Charlie Johnson was almost as bad as Clemmings. I think they're closer to shoring up the line than most people think.
They could definitely use a couple breaks in 2017 and a couple over achievers.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by IIsweet » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:51 pm

I would prefer Jake Long than Kalil. He had an Achilles issue also, so I don't want him either. He could be a vet minimum backup just in case he does heal, but I probably pass.
Good point Fiesta on the Shurmur quick hitting offense and not really needing top tier OL.
I think that the OL is close but needs a couple players.
Have to release Clemmings and Fusco IMO..
Right now we have
LT - Hill
LG - Boone
C - Berger
RG - Harris, if we still have rights? Not sure his status
RT - Sirles

Depth with Easton, Shepherd.
I would draft Bolles, Ramczyk, McDermott or Wheeler as LT and RT Skipper.
I would sign FA OG Zeitler or best I could and move Harris to RT.

We do need a big fatty DT. Linval is disruptive like KWill was but we're lacking a Fat Pat type ! Gimme a Brandon Williams type...
Also, I wish we could use Jet McKinnon like the way NE is Dion Lewis tonight.
This is the type of offense I hope to see next year.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:27 am

There was a stat on Kalil over the past few seasons somewhere that made the point that if you take away his rookie season his overall numbers are pretty bad. So he might be a lot of money to basically stay mediocre to poor. That isn't exactly exciting resource allocation IMO.

From that standpoint, along with Jim's point that signing Kalil is like signing a FA, then it makes a lot of sense to chase a guy like Wentworth. Arguably similar cost but likely that we'll get better performance.

One positive for us is that our Tackle play was so utterly bad last year that even a 2nd tier FA is likely an upgrade from what we saw in 2016. The question is whether or not such a guy would help us be competitive vs. just less bad.
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Banquo » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:12 am

Mothman wrote: It's hard to imagine both Zeitler and Whitworth hitting free agency without the Bengals re-signing at least one of them and I find it even more difficult to imagine the Vikings signing 3 of the top OL free agents in one offseason.

The Steelers signed David DeCastro (who was drafted just a few picks above Zeitler in 2012) to a 5 year, $50 million contract in 2016 so I imagine Zeitler and his agent will look for a similar deal. Even if the Vikes got him at $40 million for 4-5 years, investing $8-10 million a year in the RG position after signing Boone to a $27 million, 4 year contract and then signing 3 free agent tackles (Kalil, Whitworth and Wagner) seems unlikely, not to mention potentially cost-prohibitive.

I think there's a good chance Wagner will never hit free agency either. It's not a deep market for tackles so if he does, there would probably be competition for him which could drive his price up.
I agree in that I doubt Zeitler will hit the market. Whitworth likely will, though whether he chooses to retire rather than start over with a new team is a real possibility. But if he would follow Zimmer to Minnesota for a year or two, that would be a win. He's old as the hills, but he's still very good (I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know). If he retires, then I think you have to look at Reiff as a guy who is OK at either tackle spot. They'd have to overpay to get him, but "OK" is a lot better than what they've worked with recently.

Boone can be cut at any time without cap implications, so if they do want to sign a premier guard (say Zeitler DID somehow get out of Cincy), it can be done. I'd keep Clemmings and bring Harris back into camp and see how they look in a competition at guard-- not necessarily because I want to keep either next year, but because we don't really save much by cutting the former and it won't cost much to bring back the latter so they might as well keep them on the 90 man roster.

Another FA to watch is J.C. Tretter. He's a pretty good player at both center and guard.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:03 pm

I've read that Cincy has still not began any kind of talks with Zeitler
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Banquo » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:21 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:I've read that Cincy has still not began any kind of talks with Zeitler
They talked last offseason, but didn't get anything done by the time the games started so they broke things off. Given that they are likely moving on from Whitworth and chose not to pay Smith, you'd think they'd pony up for Zeitler right? I mean, theoretically you make those choices to let some people walk for the very purpose of having the space to keep quality players like Zeitler. But I guess we'll see.

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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by mansquatch » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:22 am

I'm wondering if Marvin Lewis survives? Cincy had a window in 2015 and squandered it. This season they were awful. Maybe Cincy is about to go to rebuild mode?
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Re: Vikings grades: Offensive Line

Post by Banquo » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:35 pm

mansquatch wrote:I'm wondering if Marvin Lewis survives? Cincy had a window in 2015 and squandered it. This season they were awful. Maybe Cincy is about to go to rebuild mode?
If it was going to happen this offseason, it would have already.

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