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 Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching" 
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Kevin Seifert wrote this after the Vikings loss at Green Bay a few weeks ago and I'm re-posting it because I think he hit the nail on the head:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post ... snt-add-up

Quote:
The personal attributes that many people love about Zimmer -- his blunt assessments, his honest answers, his salt-of-the-earth demeanor -- have not served him well this season as a head coach. It's fair to question the environment his program has created, and it is a reminder that running a football team is similar in many ways to a leader in the business world. You should have deep knowledge of the product, of course, but more importantly you must connect with and properly manage your people.

When a respected coach quits and veteran players are in open defiance, the tendency, of course, is to redirect. But don't be fooled here. Sometimes, a fire is in fact a fire.


I'm also going to share this line from the end of the Souhan column I linked to above:

Quote:
Zimmer is 25-22 and 0-1 in the playoffs as an NFL head coach. He built up enough goodwill in 2015 to survive this implosion, but let’s not kid ourselves:

His performance over the past 10 games would have gotten Brad Childress, Leslie Frazier or Mike Tice fired.


I think Souhan's absolutely right in that assessment and to borrow the phrase Seifert used, I think in the case of Zimmer and the Vikings, the apparent fire is, in fact, a fire. The attributes Seifert described above do make Zimmer likable and I think they're among the main reasons fans have been quick to believe in him and remain eager to defend him but let's face it, when a season goes off the rails like this one did for the Vikings, in the various ways it did, there's more to it than just bad luck or injuries. The clear warning signs of bigger problems are there. Hopefully, Zimmer and company can get a good handle on things this offseason and come back with their best season in 2017 but frankly, he's fortunate he was in a position to survive a collapse like this.

Amidst all the rationalizations and explanations in his defense, let's not forget that Zimmer's team barely showed up, at home, for arguably the most crucial game of their season, with their playoff hopes on the line. By halftime against the Colts, in a game the Vikes desperately needed to stay in the playoff hunt, Zimmer's vaunted defense had allowed 27 points and the Vikings had failed to score. A week later, with a slim window still open to make the playoffs, we saw insubordination from key players and another blowout loss. Don't let an easy win over a Bears team that already had one foot out the door fool you: with the season on the line in December, Zimmer's team was barely competitive against teams that finished with more than 3 wins for the season. If they hadn't been fortunate enough to have Jacksonville and Chicago on the schedule near the end of the season, I wonder if they would have even won another game.

There are problems with this team that go FAR beyond injuries to the o-line, Blair Walsh failing to execute in a few games or Adrian Peterson making too much money. Coaching problems.


Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:28 am
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Mothman wrote:
Kevin Seifert wrote this after the Vikings loss at Green Bay a few weeks ago and I'm re-posting it because I think he hit the nail on the head:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post ... snt-add-up

Quote:
The personal attributes that many people love about Zimmer -- his blunt assessments, his honest answers, his salt-of-the-earth demeanor -- have not served him well this season as a head coach. It's fair to question the environment his program has created, and it is a reminder that running a football team is similar in many ways to a leader in the business world. You should have deep knowledge of the product, of course, but more importantly you must connect with and properly manage your people.

When a respected coach quits and veteran players are in open defiance, the tendency, of course, is to redirect. But don't be fooled here. Sometimes, a fire is in fact a fire.


I'm also going to share this line from the end of the Souhan column I linked to above:

Quote:
Zimmer is 25-22 and 0-1 in the playoffs as an NFL head coach. He built up enough goodwill in 2015 to survive this implosion, but let’s not kid ourselves:

His performance over the past 10 games would have gotten Brad Childress, Leslie Frazier or Mike Tice fired.


I think Souhan's absolutely right in that assessment and to borrow the phrase Seifert used, I think in the case of Zimmer and the Vikings, the apparent fire is, in fact, a fire. The attributes Seifert described above do make Zimmer likable and I think they're among the main reasons fans have been quick to believe in him and remain eager to defend him but let's face it, when a season goes off the rails like this one did for the Vikings, in the various ways it did, there's more to it than just bad luck or injuries. The clear warning signs of bigger problems are there. Hopefully, Zimmer and company can get a good handle on things this offseason and come back with their best season in 2017 but frankly, he's fortunate he was in a position to survive a collapse like this.

Amidst all the rationalizations and explanations in his defense, let's not forget that Zimmer's team barely showed up, at home, for arguably the most crucial game of their season, with their playoff hopes on the line. By halftime against the Colts, in a game the Vikes desperately needed to stay in the playoff hunt, Zimmer's vaunted defense had allowed 27 points and the Vikings had failed to score. A week later, with a slim window still open to make the playoffs, we saw insubordination from key players, and another blowout loss. Don't let an easy win over a Bears team that already had one foot out the door fool you: with the season on the line in December, Zimmer's team was barely competitive against teams that finished with more than 3 wins for the season. If they hadn't been fortunate enough to have Jacksonville and Chicago on the schedule last month, I wonder if they would have even won another game.

There are problems with this team that go FAR beyond injuries to the o-line, Blair Walsh failing to execute in a few games or Adrian Peterson making too much money. Coaching problems.


Regardless of injuries, the offense was not that good to begin with. I still believe the season would have went the same way even if the injuries to Teddy and AP would not have happened. A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.


Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:41 am
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Mothman wrote:
Kevin Seifert wrote this after the Vikings loss at Green Bay a few weeks ago and I'm re-posting it because I think he hit the nail on the head:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post ... snt-add-up

Quote:
The personal attributes that many people love about Zimmer -- his blunt assessments, his honest answers, his salt-of-the-earth demeanor -- have not served him well this season as a head coach. It's fair to question the environment his program has created, and it is a reminder that running a football team is similar in many ways to a leader in the business world. You should have deep knowledge of the product, of course, but more importantly you must connect with and properly manage your people.

When a respected coach quits and veteran players are in open defiance, the tendency, of course, is to redirect. But don't be fooled here. Sometimes, a fire is in fact a fire.


I'm also going to share this line from the end of the Souhan column I linked to above:

Quote:
Zimmer is 25-22 and 0-1 in the playoffs as an NFL head coach. He built up enough goodwill in 2015 to survive this implosion, but let’s not kid ourselves:

His performance over the past 10 games would have gotten Brad Childress, Leslie Frazier or Mike Tice fired.


I think Souhan's absolutely right in that assessment and to borrow the phrase Seifert used, I think in the case of Zimmer and the Vikings, the apparent fire is, in fact, a fire. The attributes Seifert described above do make Zimmer likable and I think they're among the main reasons fans have been quick to believe in him and remain eager to defend him but let's face it, when a season goes off the rails like this one did for the Vikings, in the various ways it did, there's more to it than just bad luck or injuries. The clear warning signs of bigger problems are there. Hopefully, Zimmer and company can get a good handle on things this offseason and come back with their best season in 2017 but frankly, he's fortunate he was in a position to survive a collapse like this.

Amidst all the rationalizations and explanations in his defense, let's not forget that Zimmer's team barely showed up, at home, for arguably the most crucial game of their season, with their playoff hopes on the line. By halftime against the Colts, in a game the Vikes desperately needed to stay in the playoff hunt, Zimmer's vaunted defense had allowed 27 points and the Vikings had failed to score. A week later, with a slim window still open to make the playoffs, we saw insubordination from key players and another blowout loss. Don't let an easy win over a Bears team that already had one foot out the door fool you: with the season on the line in December, Zimmer's team was barely competitive against teams that finished with more than 3 wins for the season. If they hadn't been fortunate enough to have Jacksonville and Chicago on the schedule near the end of the season, I wonder if they would have even won another game.

There are problems with this team that go FAR beyond injuries to the o-line, Blair Walsh failing to execute in a few games or Adrian Peterson making too much money. Coaching problems.


I agree with Seifert, but not with Souhan.

I agree with some of what you say, but not all. :lol:


Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:31 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
I think Zimmer's coaching style is very much like his defense. It's high pressure, aggressive, and requires discipline. Those risks can often lead to good things but it can also at times burn you. I think with the defense, he has a pretty good handle on juggling the risk/reward aspect but there will be times when you get beat. Nature of the beast. Perhaps he's not quite there in the coaching risk/reward assessment. But I think he's making strides.

This was a difficult season for everyone but I think it's important to take a macro perspective. Is Bruce Arians a bad coach because the Cardinals went 7-8-1 this year? He's a great coach. Is Ron Rivera a bad coach because Carolina went 6-10? Hell, even Packer fans were calling for McCarthy's head earlier this year. It's easy to get into knee jerk reactions rather than look at the macro picture.

Over their first 3 seasons:

Mike Zimmer: 26-22
Leslie Frazier: 18-29
Bill Belichick: 20-28

My point is with the revolving door at HC where instant gratification is demanded these days, it often takes time to build a vision. It would be great to have a Denny Green or Arians step through the door and immediately be successful but that's the exception rather than the norm. The best leaders are those that learn from their mistakes. Not those who never make mistakes. I for one, am excited to see what happens next year, I think we have a good HC but like most new HC's, there will be growing pains.


Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:54 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Holzberg wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Holzberg wrote:
As for the defense under Zim who is a defensive coach, it has been good and bad. So far neither of these coaches have been able to get things going consistently on both sides of the ball.


Good and bad?? This defense has done nothing but gone up since he's gotten here and him and Spielman are the ones that brought in the talent. Not sure how you can say its been "bad". Within the last two years, this defense has been one of the best in the NFL. If you're going to pick apart 2 games this year and 1 maybe 2 last year, go ahead, but overall, this defense under Zimmer has been very good. Not just good. Frazier oversaw the last ranked defense in the NFL and Zim has oversaw one of the best in the league for 2 years now. After being left with Fraziers garbage defense. There is no comparison. Literally zero. Especially when it comes to defense.


You can't say it has been all good and then say we forget about 2 games. Besides, it wasn't just 2 games. As other writers have posted, the defense was not able to close out games. The defense flat out broke in 2 minute drills. Maybe the play of the offense affected the defense, but either way, let's see how Zim and the players respond next year. I think Zim has finally realized that there will be no excuses next year and if it doesn't go better then he will be without a job. Speaking of which, he was interviewed before by a couple other teams and it didn't go well. So if he loses his HC job with the Vikings, he may never get another opportunity. But maybe DC is where he should stay at that point because that's his greatest strength.


We broke in two minute drills?? So against Detroit? Where else?? In any of these closer games we had this year, it was in our offenses hands to close out the game. Detroit the second time, Dallas, Washington, etc. I think you need to actually look into these games before you sit here and say the defense "broke" under two minutes because that happened 1 time out of 16 games. So I would say that is pretty much false if you ask me

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Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:17 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Mothman wrote:
S197 wrote:
I think Zimmer's coaching style is very much like his defense. It's high pressure, aggressive, and requires discipline. Those risks can often lead to good things but it can also at times burn you. I think with the defense, he has a pretty good handle on juggling the risk/reward aspect but there will be times when you get beat. Nature of the beast. Perhaps he's not quite there in the coaching risk/reward assessment. But I think he's making strides.

This was a difficult season for everyone but I think it's important to take a macro perspective. Is Bruce Arians a bad coach because the Cardinals went 7-8-1 this year? He's a great coach. Is Ron Rivera a bad coach because Carolina went 6-10? Hell, even Packer fans were calling for McCarthy's head earlier this year. It's easy to get into knee jerk reactions rather than look at the macro picture.


It's easy but I don't think we're seeing knee-jerk reactions or anybody saying Zimmer is a bad coach. He's simply being criticized and justly so.

I see regression rather than strides forward. I see a coach who had a defense that struggled against the run in 2014 and still has a defense that struggles against the run. I see a coach whose team has had scoring and red zone issues since his first season and still has those issues. Zimmer's Vikes have had OL issues for 3 straight years. His team has shown a tendency to get blown out, sometimes by less-than-stellar opponents, every year. I could go on but my point is that too many weaknesses in Zimmer's team at the start remain weaknesses after 3 seasons. That is not encouraging.

I've been trying to take the macro perspective all along but doesn't that mean taking everything into account, from the talent level to preparation, in-game coaching, player management, organizational support, etc.? An 8-8 finish after a 5-0 start should be alarming to most fans, and yet it seems more like people want to shrug it off, as if Zimmer has somehow proven himself as a head coach after just one winning season.


And like I said before we can all tell that you clearly have your doubts and by what you try and point out, its perceived like you ARE trying to say he is a bad coach. Or at least not a good one. But all in all, I'm starting to take what you say regarding Zimmer with a grain of salt and that's for various reasons that I won't bother bringing up again. All I know is, he had an 8-8 season with a team that many coaches wouldnt have done any better and possibly much worse with. Not trying to make up excuses, but its the truth. If he flops next year, then yeah maybe he isn't the right guy, but with the defense he has and with a rebuilt OL (hopefully), I don't really see that happening

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Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:44 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
S197 wrote:

Over their first 3 seasons:

Mike Zimmer: 26-22
Leslie Frazier: 18-29
Bill Belichick: 20-28



I think this says a lot. About a lot of different things

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Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:46 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Posts deleted. I give up.

Seriously, It's just not worth it anymore.


Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:40 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Holzberg wrote:

Regardless of injuries, the offense was not that good to begin with. I still believe the season would have went the same way even if the injuries to Teddy and AP would not have happened. A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.


this could be true. or it could not even be close. to suggest injuries didn't matter and they actually saved zimmer his job seems far fetched to me. zimmer wasn't going anywhere this year, unless he went winless or just won a few games.

our line was bad to begin with. that falls on coaching. but then that already weak line was destroyed with injury. what did we have, 12 different combos in 16 games?! that is nuts. no AP, though I concede this was not as life-changing as it would have been years ago. losing your stating qb a week from the season is ALWAYS going to have effects on the year.

this isn't giving zimmer or his staff a pass at all. he needs to do better. and he'll likely be on a shorter leach next season. but we also don't want to be the browns or bills and just hire a new coach every couple of years and hope one has success. many times that success takes a little bit. if we continue a downward spiral next season it may be time to weigh options.

for me at least, zimmer has shown me more promise of success than failure. and while all of the injuries this year aren't a pass, I have a hard time ignoring all that and focusing 100% on coaching.

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Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:00 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Holzberg wrote:
A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.



All I know is, if the injuries DIDN'T happen, we wouldnt be sitting at 8-8 and would probably be playing this weekend. But either way, they didnt "save his job". It's not like he finished 3-12.

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Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:29 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
How did injuries save his job?


Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:23 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Holzberg wrote:
A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.



All I know is, if the injuries DIDN'T happen, we wouldnt be sitting at 8-8 and would probably be playing this weekend. But either way, they didnt "save his job". It's not like he finished 3-12.


Im not nessicarily saying thats not true, or that I disagree, but that is still rather speculative.

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Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:07 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Jordysghost wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Holzberg wrote:
A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.



All I know is, if the injuries DIDN'T happen, we wouldnt be sitting at 8-8 and would probably be playing this weekend. But either way, they didnt "save his job". It's not like he finished 3-12.


Im not nessicarily saying thats not true, or that I disagree, but that is still rather speculative.


Oh of course it is. But at the same time, are you honestly going to sit there and say if we had AP, Kalil, Smith and Harris for the entire year that we would be 8-8 or worse? Highly; highly doubtful. Our OC resigned and we had to modfiy our offense because of those 3 OL being out. Not sure how we could go 8-8 or worse with all those guys in the fold and we'd probably still have turner here

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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Mothman wrote:
Posts deleted. I give up.

Seriously, It's just not worth it anymore.


That's the conclussion I've come to. :confused:


Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:03 am
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
It is my personal opinion that the offense was not that great coming into the season and therefore I think the season would have went the same way it did even with Teddy and AP here. The OL wasn't good. This would not have had people whining about the injuries and thus giving Zim a pass. Can I prove this... NO! Can you prove otherwise... NO! It's just my opinion just as much as what you come back with is your opinion.

The issues with the team are not only related to injuries, but they sure did give the team an excuse.


Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
I hope Jim comes back.

I agree with that comment by Seifert regarding the last 10 games and the coaches it would have gotten fired.

To me there isn't an argument to be made. Ultimately in the NFL you are what your record is. We can debate why it happened, but frankly, who cares?

The only question regarding Zimmer that matters is this: Can he turn things around to a point where they are competitive for a championship. It is a binary question, if the answer is no then they should fire him and move on.

I think the answer is yes. But I agree with the more negative people on here in one regard: It needs to happen next year. We've seen probably 8 games where the team has just been flat and/or tanked hard in the past two seasons. it is a sure sign of an issue where this coach somehow loses his team. That issue needs to get fixed before next season.

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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
mansquatch wrote:
I hope Jim comes back.


Thanks. I was referring to the turn the discussion had taken, not the whole board.

Quote:
I agree with that comment by Seifert regarding the last 10 games and the coaches it would have gotten fired.

To me there isn't an argument to be made. Ultimately in the NFL you are what your record is. We can debate why it happened, but frankly, who cares?

The only question regarding Zimmer that matters is this: Can he turn things around to a point where they are competitive for a championship. It is a binary question, if the answer is no then they should fire him and move on.

I think the answer is yes. But I agree with the more negative people on here in one regard: It needs to happen next year. We've seen probably 8 games where the team has just been flat and/or tanked hard in the past two seasons. it is a sure sign of an issue where this coach somehow loses his team. That issue needs to get fixed before next season.


Well said. That's pretty much how I feel about it, from the binary question to your conclusion about next season.

I'm undecided on my own answer to that binary question but so far, I'm leaning toward no, mainly because after 3 years, issues I saw in Zimmer's first season remain largely unresolved, particularly on offense. When combined with the "flat" games you mentioned and the collapse and dissent we saw this season, it's hard for me to feel confident that a championship run is just around the corner.


Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:14 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Mothman wrote:
mansquatch wrote:
I hope Jim comes back.


Thanks. I was referring to the turn the discussion had taken, not the whole board.


We had Hutchinson, Longwell, and Allen on a plane ready to go!


Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:32 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
S197 wrote:
Mothman wrote:
mansquatch wrote:
I hope Jim comes back.


Thanks. I was referring to the turn the discussion had taken, not the whole board.


We had Hutchinson, Longwell, and Allen on a plane ready to go!



:lol:


Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:40 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
I should clarify that I meant that the flat game issue needs to be resolved next season. The championship thing might be a different animal.

However, I'd like to point out that this team beat the Giants and Packers this season, two of the six NFC playoff teams. We played both DET and DAL to the wire, losing stupidly to both. I doubt anyone would argue that we were not competitive in those games. I like our chances against a team like ATL where our defense matches up well. We played a full strength SEA to the wire last year in the post season. So against the class of the NFC it is plausible that this roster can be quite competitive and even win. So in that respect a trip to the SB is not out of the question. (And this was in spite of the crap OL.)

Injuries are a factor, but IMO, confidence is the bigger issue. It is probably the single largest reason why we are 8-8 and not something better than that. This of course is exactly the issue with the flat games and what Zimmer needs to fix.

I differ from you Jim in that I think Zimmer can fix it. He has been honest about the issue and specifically identified the problem publicly. So really the only question is if he can succeed or not. We'll find out.

As an aside: I do think that Walsh was a factor in the first part of the slump and probably an underrated source of "angst" for the team going back to 2015. He was integral to our first loss to DET in 2016 as well as the playoff loss to SEA last year. Having Forbath on the team probably isn't much of a tangible improvement on paper, but I think "not having Walsh" removes a source of locker room stress from the team. I doubt that on it's own it will solve their woes, but I think having Walsh out of the picture will make it easier to accomplish fixing the above issues.

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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Quote:
Regardless of injuries, the offense was not that good to begin with. I still believe the season would have went the same way even if the injuries to Teddy and AP would not have happened. A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.


I think either way his job was safe.
Without them, this team wins more than 7 games.
With them they are clearly a big reason they didn't win more than 7 games.

This isn't fans using a couple half #### injuries as an excuse to feel better about their team and the failed season. The entire offense fell apart. And I don't put any of that on a defensive minded head coach who help up his side of the equation as long as could be expected. This isn't Childress with full control getting the job based on Andy Reid and keeping it based on his defense. There was nothing Zimmer could have done to affect the outcome of this season in a more positive direction IMO. Spielman? The offensive coaches he hired? The offense he put together?...


Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:15 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Demi wrote:
Quote:
Regardless of injuries, the offense was not that good to begin with. I still believe the season would have went the same way even if the injuries to Teddy and AP would not have happened. A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.


I think either way his job was safe.
Without them, this team wins more than 7 games.
With them they are clearly a big reason they didn't win more than 7 games.

This isn't fans using a couple half #### injuries as an excuse to feel better about their team and the failed season. The entire offense fell apart. And I don't put any of that on a defensive minded head coach who help up his side of the equation as long as could be expected. This isn't Childress with full control getting the job based on Andy Reid and keeping it based on his defense. There was nothing Zimmer could have done to affect the outcome of this season in a more positive direction IMO. Spielman? The offensive coaches he hired? The offense he put together?...



Zimmer put together his coaching staff, not Spielman. Zimmer is the head coach, in charge of the team,. It doesn't matter if he's a defensive-minded coach or an offensive-minded coach. As the head coach, his responsibility is to coach the entire team, not one unit.


Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:34 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
mansquatch wrote:
I should clarify that I meant that the flat game issue needs to be resolved next season. The championship thing might be a different animal.


I understood what you meant. :)

Quote:
However, I'd like to point out that this team beat the Giants and Packers this season, two of the six NFC playoff teams. We played both DET and DAL to the wire, losing stupidly to both. I doubt anyone would argue that we were not competitive in those games. I like our chances against a team like ATL where our defense matches up well. We played a full strength SEA to the wire last year in the post season. So against the class of the NFC it is plausible that this roster can be quite competitive and even win. So in that respect a trip to the SB is not out of the question. (And this was in spite of the crap OL.)

Injuries are a factor, but IMO, confidence is the bigger issue. It is probably the single largest reason why we are 8-8 and not something better than that. This of course is exactly the issue with the flat games and what Zimmer needs to fix.

I differ from you Jim in that I think Zimmer can fix it. He has been honest about the issue and specifically identified the problem publicly. So really the only question is if he can succeed or not. We'll find out.


I don't know if he can fix it or not. I'm not ruling that out. I just lack confidence in his ability to get this team where it needs to go, especially after this season. As you said, we'll find out.


Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:37 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:


All I know is, if the injuries DIDN'T happen, we wouldnt be sitting at 8-8 and would probably be playing this weekend. But either way, they didnt "save his job". It's not like he finished 3-12.


Im not nessicarily saying thats not true, or that I disagree, but that is still rather speculative.


Oh of course it is. But at the same time, are you honestly going to sit there and say if we had AP, Kalil, Smith and Harris for the entire year that we would be 8-8 or worse? Highly; highly doubtful. Our OC resigned and we had to modfiy our offense because of those 3 OL being out. Not sure how we could go 8-8 or worse with all those guys in the fold and we'd probably still have turner here


First off, I think AP would have made a difference, but you took a distinct risk making a back his age with his injury history a key offensive cog.

Yea, I have seen plenty of teams forced to adjust their offense due to injuries on the like, every single year there is always one. You act like this is some unfathomable sutuation thay noone ever encountered before.

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Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:23 am
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Mothman wrote:
Demi wrote:
Quote:
Regardless of injuries, the offense was not that good to begin with. I still believe the season would have went the same way even if the injuries to Teddy and AP would not have happened. A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.


I think either way his job was safe.
Without them, this team wins more than 7 games.
With them they are clearly a big reason they didn't win more than 7 games.

This isn't fans using a couple half #### injuries as an excuse to feel better about their team and the failed season. The entire offense fell apart. And I don't put any of that on a defensive minded head coach who help up his side of the equation as long as could be expected. This isn't Childress with full control getting the job based on Andy Reid and keeping it based on his defense. There was nothing Zimmer could have done to affect the outcome of this season in a more positive direction IMO. Spielman? The offensive coaches he hired? The offense he put together?...



Zimmer put together his coaching staff, not Spielman. Zimmer is the head coach, in charge of the team,. It doesn't matter if he's a defensive-minded coach or an offensive-minded coach. As the head coach, his responsibility is to coach the entire team, not one unit.



It seems to me that Demi's post is EXACTLY the fan opinion that troubles you most, right Jim? I totally get why. He isn't just a D coordinator. He's our head coach. It's time for him to fulfill all of the duties of that position.


Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:08 am
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Texas Vike wrote:
It seems to me that Demi's post is EXACTLY the fan opinion that troubles you most, right Jim?


Correct!

Quote:
I totally get why. He isn't just a D coordinator. He's our head coach. It's time for him to fulfill all of the duties of that position.


Exactly right.

Zimmer did a great job of taking a defense in need of an overhaul and building it into one of the league's better units but too many people are willing to overlook the fact that an offense that had climbed to 13th in the league (with Ponder and Cassel at QB!) dropped into the bottom 15% or so in Zimmer's first season and has stayed there.

That drop and stagnation is indicative of what worries me most about Zimmer's Vikings. Under Zimmer, the team's been able to significantly improve in the area he knows best: pass defense. The improvement there has been dramatic. The run defense isn't better. In fact, the Vikings have allowed a higher yards per carry average in each of the past 3 seasons than they did in each of the previous 3. The offense has grown worse and this year, without Peterson and with the o-line woes, the running game was the worst in the NFL.

It's been evident for 3 years now that the offense and run defense needed to get better and that hasn't happened in any substantive way. Combine that with the dissension in the ranks and the collapse this season and I'm left wondering if Zimmer's a pass defense specialist who's simply in over his head as a head coach.


Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:57 am
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Mothman wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
It seems to me that Demi's post is EXACTLY the fan opinion that troubles you most, right Jim?


Correct!

Quote:
I totally get why. He isn't just a D coordinator. He's our head coach. It's time for him to fulfill all of the duties of that position.


Exactly right.

Zimmer did a great job of taking a defense in need of an overhaul and building it into one of the league's better units but too many people are willing to overlook the fact that an offense that had climbed to 13th in the league (with Ponder and Cassel at QB!) dropped into the bottom 15% or so in Zimmer's first season and has stayed there.

That drop and stagnation is indicative of what worries me most about Zimmer's Vikings. Under Zimmer, the team's been able to significantly improve in the area he knows best: pass defense. The improvement there has been dramatic. The run defense isn't better. In fact, the Vikings have allowed a higher yards per carry average in each of the past 3 seasons than they did in each of the previous 3. The offense has grown worse and this year, without Peterson and with the o-line woes, the running game was the worst in the NFL.

It's been evident for 3 years now that the offense and run defense needed to get better and that hasn't happened in any substantive way. Combine that with the dissension in the ranks and the collapse this season and I'm left wondering if Zimmer's a pass defense specialist who's simply in over his head as a head coach.



Great post, Jim. Your position seems completely reasonable to me. I think this is the clearest that I've ever seen it stated, btw.


Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:11 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
Texas Vike wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
It seems to me that Demi's post is EXACTLY the fan opinion that troubles you most, right Jim?


Correct!

Quote:
I totally get why. He isn't just a D coordinator. He's our head coach. It's time for him to fulfill all of the duties of that position.


Exactly right.

Zimmer did a great job of taking a defense in need of an overhaul and building it into one of the league's better units but too many people are willing to overlook the fact that an offense that had climbed to 13th in the league (with Ponder and Cassel at QB!) dropped into the bottom 15% or so in Zimmer's first season and has stayed there.

That drop and stagnation is indicative of what worries me most about Zimmer's Vikings. Under Zimmer, the team's been able to significantly improve in the area he knows best: pass defense. The improvement there has been dramatic. The run defense isn't better. In fact, the Vikings have allowed a higher yards per carry average in each of the past 3 seasons than they did in each of the previous 3. The offense has grown worse and this year, without Peterson and with the o-line woes, the running game was the worst in the NFL.

It's been evident for 3 years now that the offense and run defense needed to get better and that hasn't happened in any substantive way. Combine that with the dissension in the ranks and the collapse this season and I'm left wondering if Zimmer's a pass defense specialist who's simply in over his head as a head coach.



Great post, Jim. Your position seems completely reasonable to me. I think this is the clearest that I've ever seen it stated, btw.


Thanks. I'm glad to hear that. I realized as I was typing it that if I'd actually been able to state my position that clearly in the first place, I might have saved myself some difficult discussions. :lol:

I'm not giving up on Zimmer but I very much feel he's entering a "prove it" year.


Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:16 pm
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
IMO, Zimmer and Spielman had a lot of rebuilding to do. Pretty tough to rebuild an entire team at once. They seemed to concentrate on the defense first as that was the most in need. They did not exclude the offense, but focused more on the defense. In that Zimm has been very successful. Losing Teddy was devastating but was negated by Ricks trade for Sam. I may be in the minority, but I don't see losing AP as a huge factor. Loadholts inability to recover from injuries and retirement hurt us. The Smith signing didn't work out. I think CJ would have been better at RT than moving last minute to LT when Kalil went down. Whatever happened to Harris head hurt also. He was good at RG the previous year. Fusco never regained his solid play at RG. Not keeping Sully was a mistake as it pushed Berger to start at C instead of having an exceptional backup at multiple positions, although C was our best oline spot this year. Boone, although a major improvment, was not what was hoped for. Kalil is below average, but we did find out that it could get worse. Sirles and Easton have performed well when called upon. Long may have been an improvement had he not gone down so quickly. I think you can easily blame injuries for this years record and give Zimm a pass.


Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:45 am
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Post Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"
mmvikes wrote:
IMO, Zimmer and Spielman had a lot of rebuilding to do. Pretty tough to rebuild an entire team at once. They seemed to concentrate on the defense first as that was the most in need. They did not exclude the offense, but focused more on the defense. In that Zimm has been very successful. Losing Teddy was devastating but was negated by Ricks trade for Sam. I may be in the minority, but I don't see losing AP as a huge factor. Loadholts inability to recover from injuries and retirement hurt us. The Smith signing didn't work out. I think CJ would have been better at RT than moving last minute to LT when Kalil went down. Whatever happened to Harris head hurt also. He was good at RG the previous year. Fusco never regained his solid play at RG. Not keeping Sully was a mistake as it pushed Berger to start at C instead of having an exceptional backup at multiple positions, although C was our best oline spot this year. Boone, although a major improvment, was not what was hoped for. Kalil is below average, but we did find out that it could get worse. Sirles and Easton have performed well when called upon. Long may have been an improvement had he not gone down so quickly. I think you can easily blame injuries for this years record and give Zimm a pass.


As I have said before, it was a huge killer and I don't look at this season as a true tell of Zims abilities as a coach. He went 8-8 with a team that had an offense that wasnt great to begin with and then got murdered by injuries. I think Zim is a great coach for this team and have no worries when it comes to him and Spielman

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Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:11 pm
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