Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

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Mothman
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Mothman » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:28 am

Kevin Seifert wrote this after the Vikings loss at Green Bay a few weeks ago and I'm re-posting it because I think he hit the nail on the head:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post ... snt-add-up
The personal attributes that many people love about Zimmer -- his blunt assessments, his honest answers, his salt-of-the-earth demeanor -- have not served him well this season as a head coach. It's fair to question the environment his program has created, and it is a reminder that running a football team is similar in many ways to a leader in the business world. You should have deep knowledge of the product, of course, but more importantly you must connect with and properly manage your people.

When a respected coach quits and veteran players are in open defiance, the tendency, of course, is to redirect. But don't be fooled here. Sometimes, a fire is in fact a fire.
I'm also going to share this line from the end of the Souhan column I linked to above:
Zimmer is 25-22 and 0-1 in the playoffs as an NFL head coach. He built up enough goodwill in 2015 to survive this implosion, but let’s not kid ourselves:

His performance over the past 10 games would have gotten Brad Childress, Leslie Frazier or Mike Tice fired.
I think Souhan's absolutely right in that assessment and to borrow the phrase Seifert used, I think in the case of Zimmer and the Vikings, the apparent fire is, in fact, a fire. The attributes Seifert described above do make Zimmer likable and I think they're among the main reasons fans have been quick to believe in him and remain eager to defend him but let's face it, when a season goes off the rails like this one did for the Vikings, in the various ways it did, there's more to it than just bad luck or injuries. The clear warning signs of bigger problems are there. Hopefully, Zimmer and company can get a good handle on things this offseason and come back with their best season in 2017 but frankly, he's fortunate he was in a position to survive a collapse like this.

Amidst all the rationalizations and explanations in his defense, let's not forget that Zimmer's team barely showed up, at home, for arguably the most crucial game of their season, with their playoff hopes on the line. By halftime against the Colts, in a game the Vikes desperately needed to stay in the playoff hunt, Zimmer's vaunted defense had allowed 27 points and the Vikings had failed to score. A week later, with a slim window still open to make the playoffs, we saw insubordination from key players and another blowout loss. Don't let an easy win over a Bears team that already had one foot out the door fool you: with the season on the line in December, Zimmer's team was barely competitive against teams that finished with more than 3 wins for the season. If they hadn't been fortunate enough to have Jacksonville and Chicago on the schedule near the end of the season, I wonder if they would have even won another game.

There are problems with this team that go FAR beyond injuries to the o-line, Blair Walsh failing to execute in a few games or Adrian Peterson making too much money. Coaching problems.

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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Holzberg » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:41 am

Mothman wrote:Kevin Seifert wrote this after the Vikings loss at Green Bay a few weeks ago and I'm re-posting it because I think he hit the nail on the head:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post ... snt-add-up
I'm also going to share this line from the end of the Souhan column I linked to above:
I think Souhan's absolutely right in that assessment and to borrow the phrase Seifert used, I think in the case of Zimmer and the Vikings, the apparent fire is, in fact, a fire. The attributes Seifert described above do make Zimmer likable and I think they're among the main reasons fans have been quick to believe in him and remain eager to defend him but let's face it, when a season goes off the rails like this one did for the Vikings, in the various ways it did, there's more to it than just bad luck or injuries. The clear warning signs of bigger problems are there. Hopefully, Zimmer and company can get a good handle on things this offseason and come back with their best season in 2017 but frankly, he's fortunate he was in a position to survive a collapse like this.

Amidst all the rationalizations and explanations in his defense, let's not forget that Zimmer's team barely showed up, at home, for arguably the most crucial game of their season, with their playoff hopes on the line. By halftime against the Colts, in a game the Vikes desperately needed to stay in the playoff hunt, Zimmer's vaunted defense had allowed 27 points and the Vikings had failed to score. A week later, with a slim window still open to make the playoffs, we saw insubordination from key players, and another blowout loss. Don't let an easy win over a Bears team that already had one foot out the door fool you: with the season on the line in December, Zimmer's team was barely competitive against teams that finished with more than 3 wins for the season. If they hadn't been fortunate enough to have Jacksonville and Chicago on the schedule last month, I wonder if they would have even won another game.

There are problems with this team that go FAR beyond injuries to the o-line, Blair Walsh failing to execute in a few games or Adrian Peterson making too much money. Coaching problems.
Regardless of injuries, the offense was not that good to begin with. I still believe the season would have went the same way even if the injuries to Teddy and AP would not have happened. A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.

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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Texas Vike » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:31 pm

Mothman wrote:Kevin Seifert wrote this after the Vikings loss at Green Bay a few weeks ago and I'm re-posting it because I think he hit the nail on the head:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post ... snt-add-up
I'm also going to share this line from the end of the Souhan column I linked to above:
I think Souhan's absolutely right in that assessment and to borrow the phrase Seifert used, I think in the case of Zimmer and the Vikings, the apparent fire is, in fact, a fire. The attributes Seifert described above do make Zimmer likable and I think they're among the main reasons fans have been quick to believe in him and remain eager to defend him but let's face it, when a season goes off the rails like this one did for the Vikings, in the various ways it did, there's more to it than just bad luck or injuries. The clear warning signs of bigger problems are there. Hopefully, Zimmer and company can get a good handle on things this offseason and come back with their best season in 2017 but frankly, he's fortunate he was in a position to survive a collapse like this.

Amidst all the rationalizations and explanations in his defense, let's not forget that Zimmer's team barely showed up, at home, for arguably the most crucial game of their season, with their playoff hopes on the line. By halftime against the Colts, in a game the Vikes desperately needed to stay in the playoff hunt, Zimmer's vaunted defense had allowed 27 points and the Vikings had failed to score. A week later, with a slim window still open to make the playoffs, we saw insubordination from key players and another blowout loss. Don't let an easy win over a Bears team that already had one foot out the door fool you: with the season on the line in December, Zimmer's team was barely competitive against teams that finished with more than 3 wins for the season. If they hadn't been fortunate enough to have Jacksonville and Chicago on the schedule near the end of the season, I wonder if they would have even won another game.

There are problems with this team that go FAR beyond injuries to the o-line, Blair Walsh failing to execute in a few games or Adrian Peterson making too much money. Coaching problems.
I agree with Seifert, but not with Souhan.

I agree with some of what you say, but not all. :lol:

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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by S197 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:54 pm

I think Zimmer's coaching style is very much like his defense. It's high pressure, aggressive, and requires discipline. Those risks can often lead to good things but it can also at times burn you. I think with the defense, he has a pretty good handle on juggling the risk/reward aspect but there will be times when you get beat. Nature of the beast. Perhaps he's not quite there in the coaching risk/reward assessment. But I think he's making strides.

This was a difficult season for everyone but I think it's important to take a macro perspective. Is Bruce Arians a bad coach because the Cardinals went 7-8-1 this year? He's a great coach. Is Ron Rivera a bad coach because Carolina went 6-10? Hell, even Packer fans were calling for McCarthy's head earlier this year. It's easy to get into knee jerk reactions rather than look at the macro picture.

Over their first 3 seasons:

Mike Zimmer: 26-22
Leslie Frazier: 18-29
Bill Belichick: 20-28

My point is with the revolving door at HC where instant gratification is demanded these days, it often takes time to build a vision. It would be great to have a Denny Green or Arians step through the door and immediately be successful but that's the exception rather than the norm. The best leaders are those that learn from their mistakes. Not those who never make mistakes. I for one, am excited to see what happens next year, I think we have a good HC but like most new HC's, there will be growing pains.

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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:17 pm

Holzberg wrote: You can't say it has been all good and then say we forget about 2 games. Besides, it wasn't just 2 games. As other writers have posted, the defense was not able to close out games. The defense flat out broke in 2 minute drills. Maybe the play of the offense affected the defense, but either way, let's see how Zim and the players respond next year. I think Zim has finally realized that there will be no excuses next year and if it doesn't go better then he will be without a job. Speaking of which, he was interviewed before by a couple other teams and it didn't go well. So if he loses his HC job with the Vikings, he may never get another opportunity. But maybe DC is where he should stay at that point because that's his greatest strength.
We broke in two minute drills?? So against Detroit? Where else?? In any of these closer games we had this year, it was in our offenses hands to close out the game. Detroit the second time, Dallas, Washington, etc. I think you need to actually look into these games before you sit here and say the defense "broke" under two minutes because that happened 1 time out of 16 games. So I would say that is pretty much false if you ask me
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:44 pm

Mothman wrote: It's easy but I don't think we're seeing knee-jerk reactions or anybody saying Zimmer is a bad coach. He's simply being criticized and justly so.

I see regression rather than strides forward. I see a coach who had a defense that struggled against the run in 2014 and still has a defense that struggles against the run. I see a coach whose team has had scoring and red zone issues since his first season and still has those issues. Zimmer's Vikes have had OL issues for 3 straight years. His team has shown a tendency to get blown out, sometimes by less-than-stellar opponents, every year. I could go on but my point is that too many weaknesses in Zimmer's team at the start remain weaknesses after 3 seasons. That is not encouraging.

I've been trying to take the macro perspective all along but doesn't that mean taking everything into account, from the talent level to preparation, in-game coaching, player management, organizational support, etc.? An 8-8 finish after a 5-0 start should be alarming to most fans, and yet it seems more like people want to shrug it off, as if Zimmer has somehow proven himself as a head coach after just one winning season.
And like I said before we can all tell that you clearly have your doubts and by what you try and point out, its perceived like you ARE trying to say he is a bad coach. Or at least not a good one. But all in all, I'm starting to take what you say regarding Zimmer with a grain of salt and that's for various reasons that I won't bother bringing up again. All I know is, he had an 8-8 season with a team that many coaches wouldnt have done any better and possibly much worse with. Not trying to make up excuses, but its the truth. If he flops next year, then yeah maybe he isn't the right guy, but with the defense he has and with a rebuilt OL (hopefully), I don't really see that happening
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:46 pm

S197 wrote:
Over their first 3 seasons:

Mike Zimmer: 26-22
Leslie Frazier: 18-29
Bill Belichick: 20-28
I think this says a lot. About a lot of different things
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Mothman » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:40 pm

Posts deleted. I give up.

Seriously, It's just not worth it anymore.

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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by vikeinmontana » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:00 pm

Holzberg wrote:
Regardless of injuries, the offense was not that good to begin with. I still believe the season would have went the same way even if the injuries to Teddy and AP would not have happened. A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.
this could be true. or it could not even be close. to suggest injuries didn't matter and they actually saved zimmer his job seems far fetched to me. zimmer wasn't going anywhere this year, unless he went winless or just won a few games.

our line was bad to begin with. that falls on coaching. but then that already weak line was destroyed with injury. what did we have, 12 different combos in 16 games?! that is nuts. no AP, though I concede this was not as life-changing as it would have been years ago. losing your stating qb a week from the season is ALWAYS going to have effects on the year.

this isn't giving zimmer or his staff a pass at all. he needs to do better. and he'll likely be on a shorter leach next season. but we also don't want to be the browns or bills and just hire a new coach every couple of years and hope one has success. many times that success takes a little bit. if we continue a downward spiral next season it may be time to weigh options.

for me at least, zimmer has shown me more promise of success than failure. and while all of the injuries this year aren't a pass, I have a hard time ignoring all that and focusing 100% on coaching.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:29 pm

Holzberg wrote: A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.

All I know is, if the injuries DIDN'T happen, we wouldnt be sitting at 8-8 and would probably be playing this weekend. But either way, they didnt "save his job". It's not like he finished 3-12.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Dmizzle0 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:23 pm

How did injuries save his job?

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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Jordysghost » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:07 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
All I know is, if the injuries DIDN'T happen, we wouldnt be sitting at 8-8 and would probably be playing this weekend. But either way, they didnt "save his job". It's not like he finished 3-12.
Im not nessicarily saying thats not true, or that I disagree, but that is still rather speculative.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:19 am

Jordysghost wrote: Im not nessicarily saying thats not true, or that I disagree, but that is still rather speculative.
Oh of course it is. But at the same time, are you honestly going to sit there and say if we had AP, Kalil, Smith and Harris for the entire year that we would be 8-8 or worse? Highly; highly doubtful. Our OC resigned and we had to modfiy our offense because of those 3 OL being out. Not sure how we could go 8-8 or worse with all those guys in the fold and we'd probably still have turner here
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:03 am

Mothman wrote:Posts deleted. I give up.

Seriously, It's just not worth it anymore.
That's the conclussion I've come to. :confused:

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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Holzberg » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am

It is my personal opinion that the offense was not that great coming into the season and therefore I think the season would have went the same way it did even with Teddy and AP here. The OL wasn't good. This would not have had people whining about the injuries and thus giving Zim a pass. Can I prove this... NO! Can you prove otherwise... NO! It's just my opinion just as much as what you come back with is your opinion.

The issues with the team are not only related to injuries, but they sure did give the team an excuse.

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