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 What happened to our offensive line 
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Post What happened to our offensive line
Last year the offensive line was Kalil and Fusco, Berger, Harris and Clemmings. That line helped get AD a rushing title...
Move a year ahead we have had, Berger,Fusco and Clemming on the right side. Even Smith who beat out Clemmings was there for a few games.
And we could only average 2-2.5 ypc. Did Harris make that much of a difference?

The left side this season was Kalil, Boone and Berger center. Boone better than Fusco. Not much yardage off of that side of the line.
14 games and we haven't even had a 100 yard rushing game. We have had 3 players from last years line playing this season.
What's the problem??


Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:03 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Short answer: It was never good to begin with.

Longer answer: Kalil would be major upgrade right now. Andre Smith would be better than Sirles, but the line would still be poor even if everyone was healthy. It is disgusting how terribly neglected this position has been in Minnesota. I don't see how it will get too much better next season either. Nick Easton, Jeremiah Sirles, Willie Beavers, and T.J. Clemmings are not future starters. They aren't even good backups.

The line needs to be gutted, but that isn't even feasible. Unfortunately, we will have to keep some bad players.

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Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:28 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
HardcoreVikesFan wrote:
Short answer: It was never good to begin with.

Longer answer: Kalil would be major upgrade right now. Andre Smith would be better than Sirles, but the line would still be poor even if everyone was healthy. It is disgusting how terribly neglected this position has been in Minnesota. I don't see how it will get too much better next season either. Nick Easton, Jeremiah Sirles, Willie Beavers, and T.J. Clemmings are not future starters. They aren't even good backups.

The line needs to be gutted, but that isn't even feasible. Unfortunately, we will have to keep some bad players.


Nick Easton has played well at C over the past few weeks. Sirles I can deal with. Beavers and Clemmings, no.

If Easton wasnt playing good enough they would have started Berger this week and put Kerin at guard but they didnt.

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Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:04 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
It’s surprising that we haven’t seen Hill yet considering the Vikings plucked him off the Jaguars’ practice squad and TJ Clemmings has been one of the worst rated tackles in the NFL. It would make sense to see what they have in Hill.


Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:17 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
halfgiz wrote:
Last year the offensive line was Kalil and Fusco, Berger, Harris and Clemmings. That line helped get AD a rushing title...
Move a year ahead we have had, Berger,Fusco and Clemming on the right side. Even Smith who beat out Clemmings was there for a few games.
And we could only average 2-2.5 ypc. Did Harris make that much of a difference?

The left side this season was Kalil, Boone and Berger center. Boone better than Fusco. Not much yardage off of that side of the line.
14 games and we haven't even had a 100 yard rushing game. We have had 3 players from last years line playing this season.
What's the problem??

1) The left side this season was Kalil? Dude, Matt Kalil played just two games. Andre Smith played four. Phil Loadholt, who was supposed to make a difference, played zero.
2) Yes, Harris did a good job for the Vikings in 2015. So given the suck level of the rest of our line, yes ... he does make that much of a difference.
3) Due to injuries, we've had 3 different starters at each tackle position.
4) Fusco's play has spiraled down the commode faster than a lumberjack's poop after a chili dinner.

Bottom line: We stink.

Oh, but for the record, we're averaging 3.0 ypc. Woo hoo!

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Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:30 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
halfgiz wrote:
Last year the offensive line was Kalil and Fusco, Berger, Harris and Clemmings. That line helped get AD a rushing title...
Move a year ahead we have had, Berger,Fusco and Clemming on the right side. Even Smith who beat out Clemmings was there for a few games.
And we could only average 2-2.5 ypc. Did Harris make that much of a difference?

The left side this season was Kalil, Boone and Berger center. Boone better than Fusco. Not much yardage off of that side of the line.
14 games and we haven't even had a 100 yard rushing game. We have had 3 players from last years line playing this season.
What's the problem??

1) The left side this season was Kalil? Dude, Matt Kalil played just two games. Andre Smith played four. Phil Loadholt, who was supposed to make a difference, played zero.
2) Yes, Harris did a good job for the Vikings in 2015. So given the suck level of the rest of our line, yes ... he does make that much of a difference.
3) Due to injuries, we've had 3 different starters at each tackle position.
4) Fusco's play has spiraled down the commode faster than a lumberjack's poop after a chili dinner.

Bottom line: We stink.

Oh, but for the record, we're averaging 3.0 ypc. Woo hoo!


Agree again Kapp. Harris was good. I don't care what anyone says. I said all of last year he was our best lineman and 95% of this board argued with say saying he was average to below average. He was a top 22-ish guard in the NFL last year according to PFF

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Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:33 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Harris was solid last year, I don't know if he was great. However, I'll take solid.

Been through this many times. Long story short: We never got to see the improved line play this season. Harris never took a snap. Kalil was injured after week 1 and put on IR after week 2. Smith was on IR by week 5.

On top of injuries we've now had 2 different players play at both guard positions and center. We've had three different players at each tackle position. In addition to the injuries we've had no continuity on the line for the entire season. Seems like nearly every game there is someone in a new or different position. Fusco has been the player who started the most games and most would argue that of our starters he is the weak link.

In addition to the injury related lack of continuity, we started the year with a line that had 3 of 5 players in a new a position from 2015. The only two who were in the same spot as 2015 were Berger and Kalil.

The early part of the season was almost guaranteed to be a struggle due to the last point. From there we never had a chance to benefit from consistency, plus we are starting the backup and backup to the backup at Tackle.

This probably won't be popular, but I think the continuity and injury thing equate to us not knowing what we have in our line. We definitely know that our backup tackle situation sucks. They need to add talent, but I think having our guys healthy and having them actually get some time to play together will equal them no longer being the worst line or amongst the worst lines. I doubt they'll be Dallas good, but I also doubt they'll be as bad as they are today.

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Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:16 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
lolol....everyone knows what we have....a whole lot of nothing for an OL.

Kalil is a bust...thas been obvious forever.
Clemmings...our newest bust
Fusco....a journeyman back up at best
The rest of the guys are NOT players who belong on a Super Bowl contender...THAT is all that matters.

a rebuild of the OL is unavoidable if you are honestly trying to FINALLY be a top notch team.

otherwise...have fun treading water in a sea of mediocrity


Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:56 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
HardcoreVikesFan wrote:
Short answer: It was never good to begin with.


That sums it up. The Vikings OL has been deteriorating for a while now. What's left presently is a crippled mess.


Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:56 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
chicagopurple wrote:
lolol....everyone knows what we have....a whole lot of nothing for an OL.

Kalil is a bust...thas been obvious forever.
Clemmings...our newest bust
Fusco....a journeyman back up at best
The rest of the guys are NOT players who belong on a Super Bowl contender...THAT is all that matters.

a rebuild of the OL is unavoidable if you are honestly trying to FINALLY be a top notch team.

otherwise...have fun treading water in a sea of mediocrity



I don't think you understand what bust means. Clemmings is probably a bust. But Kalil is Far from a bust. more likely classified as a reach. But to call him a bust at the level he performed makes me question if you actually have ever watched an Oline play? :?


Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:00 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Said it before and will continue to say it till Vikings wake up and understand that Championships are won in the trenches, not with flashy ball handler RBs WRs ect ect. The Line, The Line, The Line. Wake up Minnesota


Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:31 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
The Harbaugh 49ers had great OL play, but never won it all. The recent DEN team had a patchwork line that was hardly the teams calling card. The recent SEA teams have not had great OL play either. Other SB teams have had good to great OL play, recent Ravens team was solid as were the Patriots.

I would submit that our currnet level of OL play is obviously not good enough, however I do not think we need a DAL level OL to win the big game either. We need to be more competitive up front for sure, but I suspect we are closer than it seems.

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Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:48 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Here's my offseason OL and obviously intending to upgrade...
LT - Beavers
LG - Boone
C - Easton
RG - Shepherd
RT - Clemmings

I think we have interior depth with Berger and Fusco
Harris is probably our RG or RT if he wants to play ?
I would offer Kalil a backup LT contract and Jake Long too

I would go after Riley Reiff or some LT in FA.
I would go get an OG like Pork Chop Warmack in FA.

In the draft I would look at Chad Wheeler, Adam Bisnowaty, Taylor Moton, Dan Skipper, Zack Banner, Tyrone Crowder, Pat Elfein, Ethan Pocic. These are OT, OG, and C that we should be able to land at least 2 with our 5 picks between the 2-4th rds


Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:56 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
chicagopurple wrote:
lolol....everyone knows what we have....a whole lot of nothing for an OL.

Kalil is a bust...thas been obvious forever.
Clemmings...our newest bust
Fusco....a journeyman back up at best
The rest of the guys are NOT players who belong on a Super Bowl contender...THAT is all that matters.

a rebuild of the OL is unavoidable if you are honestly trying to FINALLY be a top notch team.

otherwise...have fun treading water in a sea of mediocrity


To be drafted in the 4th round and be called a bust doesnt make much sense. I wouldnt consider Kalil a bust.

But some how Joe Berger (#6 C according to PFF) and Mike Harris who was a top 20 guard according to PFF last year dont belong on a SB contender. Yeah dude makes total sense :confused:

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Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:04 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Another thing regarding this OL and the posts I'm seeing saying "it wasnt good to begin with so the injuries are just an excuse". Another reason I completely disagree with this (not saying original OL was great or anything before guys jump down my throat) is that our original OL was NOT season altering. This current offensive line is. With this offensive line, we've gotten our QB absolutely killed, ended up losing our OC mainly due to the OL issues and in turn had to modify our entire offense around quick drops and quick passes, no less we have no running game with AP out. Sit there and say what you will about AP but if I remember correctly, everyone on this board was saying he was washed up last year when he ran for 31 yards against SF, yet he ended up leading the league in rushing yards. The only game he really got a legitimate amount of carries was the Tennessee game which wasnt good just like SF last year.

But bottom line is, our starting OL we had all year last year wasnt the reason we lost in the playoffs. So it wasnt a season altering type OL that we had to modify our offense around like this current one is. And going into this year, we had a better LG than last year in Boone and a better RT than last year in Smith. Even with our original OL playing at their worst, it wouldnt have been season altering. If anything there were better players on it than last year (minus Fusco).

So guys can sit here and ignore the injury side of it all they want and point the finger at this guy and that guy but bottom line is, after we lost our tackles, this season gradually started to get much worse. It's clear as day. The post-injury offensive line ruined this season when you look at the big picture

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Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:07 am
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Another thing regarding this OL and the posts I'm seeing saying "it wasnt good to begin with so the injuries are just an excuse". Another reason I completely disagree with this (not saying original OL was great or anything before guys jump down my throat) is that our original OL was NOT season altering. This current offensive line is. With this offensive line, we've gotten our QB absolutely killed, ended up losing our OC mainly due to the OL issues and in turn had to modify our entire offense around quick drops and quick passes, no less we have no running game with AP out. Sit there and say what you will about AP but if I remember correctly, everyone on this board was saying he was washed up last year when he ran for 31 yards against SF, yet he ended up leading the league in rushing yards. The only game he really got a legitimate amount of carries was the Tennessee game which wasnt good just like SF last year.

But bottom line is, our starting OL we had all year last year wasn't the reason we lost in the playoffs.


It was certainly one of the reasons they lost that game. Seattle's defense dominated the Vikings offensive front. The Vikings gained just 58 yards on 29 rushing plays. That's indicative of poor OL play and it was obvious during the game the OL couldn't create room for the backs.

Bridgewater was sacked 3 times too and pressured more than that.

Last year's OL was obviously detrimental to the team. That's why Davidson was fired and why upgrading it was supposed to be a priority this offseason.

Quote:
So it wasnt a season altering type OL that we had to modify our offense around like this current one is. And going into this year, we had a better LG than last year in Boone and a better RT than last year in Smith. Even with our original OL playing at their worst, it wouldn't have been season altering. If anything there were better players on it than last year (minus Fusco).


It sure looked season-altering when the season began. Articles about the negative impact the OL was having were appearing before both tackles were lost for the year. In fact, they were appearing after week 1. Vikings backs were barely able to gain a yard before contact against the Titans. Bradford was hammered by the Packers in week 2 and the running game couldn't even muster an average of 1.5 yards per rush.

I don't care how the line looked on paper in May. They looked bad on the field from the start. Injuries exacerbated a problem that was already glaringly obvious.


Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:30 am
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Mothman wrote:
It was certainly one of the reasons they lost that game. Seattle's defense dominated the Vikings offensive front. The Vikings gained just 58 yards on 29 rushing plays. That's indicative of poor OL play and it was obvious during the game the OL couldn't create room for the backs.

Bridgewater was sacked 3 times too and pressured more than that.

Last year's OL was obviously detrimental to the team. That's why Davidson was fired and why upgrading it was supposed to be a priority this offseason.


Lets be honest we had the game won if it wasnt for one person. We're also talking about arguably the best defense in the NFL outside of Denver last year.

I mean Dallas has the best OL in football and we sacked them 3 times this year. And had pressure on Dak all night. So is it really saying much that the Seattle Seahawks of all teams had 3 sacks on Teddy Bridgewater? No. Bottom line is, we had the game won last year.

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It sure looked season-altering when the season began. Articles about the negative impact the OL was having were appearing before both tackles were lost for the year. In fact, they were appearing after week 1. Vikings backs were barely able to gain a yard before contact against the Titans. Bradford was hammered by the Packers in week 2 and the running game couldn't even muster an average of 1.5 yards per rush.

I don't care how the line looked on paper in May. They looked bad on the field from the start. Injuries exacerbated a problem that was already glaringly obvious.


But there is a difference. We were winning. Now we have 2 garbage cans out there for tackles and we can no longer win. Blame it on whatever else you want. The tackle situation has gotten so bad that we had to use a new offensive scheme. And we cant win. Notice the pattern here? I sure do. Point being, if our line was SO bad last year, we wouldnt have been in that opportunity to beat Seattle. What do you think would happen this year if we played them after these injuries??? I can guarantee you we wouldnt be in a 1 point game with them. If we had Matt Kalil, Andre Smith, Mike Harris and Adrian Peterson, we very well could be.

Bottom line is this current OL is game and season altering. If Matt Kalil, Andre Smith and Mike Harris were healthy and starting right now, along with Berger and Boone, we would be well into the playoff hunt, probably still have Norv Turner, and I would imagine have a better running game as well (something Harris was very good at, Fusco, not so much). The original line could obviously be better, but they werent going to cost you a season like this current one is. They didnt cost us a season last year and TJ Clemmings was starting and we didnt have Alex Boone

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Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:22 am
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Lets be honest we had the game won if it wasnt for one person. We're also talking about arguably the best defense in the NFL outside of Denver last year.


That's the kind of competition a team can expect to face when trying to get to a Super Bowl. The quality of Seattle's defense isn't an argument against the point I was making, which is that OL play was one of the reasons the Vikings lost the game. Their OL was dominated by Seattle's defense. in other words, they couldn't match up. That clearly hurt their chances to win.

An honest assessment of the game takes the team's overall performance into consideration, not just one kick at the end.

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But there is a difference. We were winning.


That doesn't alter the fact the OL was highly problematic from the start. It just means the Vikings were finding ways to win despite that.

Quote:
Bottom line is this current OL is game and season altering. If Matt Kalil, Andre Smith and Mike Harris were healthy and starting right now, along with Berger and Boone, we would be well into the playoff hunt, probably still have Norv Turner, and I would imagine have a better running game as well (something Harris was very good at, Fusco, not so much).


That's pure conjecture and not supported by the performance of the OL this season when all of those players except Harris were healthy and playing.


Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:50 am
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Mothman wrote:

That's the kind of competition a team can expect to face when trying to get to a Super Bowl. The quality of Seattle's defense isn't an argument against the point I was making, which is that OL play was one of the reasons the Vikings lost the game. Their OL was dominated by Seattle's defense. in other words, they couldn't match up. That clearly hurt their chances to win.

An honest assessment of the game takes the team's overall performance into consideration, not just one kick at the end.


I understand what you're saying but the game was literally over. If we had any other kicker on our team outside of Walsh that day, this wouldnt even be discussed.

Also, like I said, were talking about Seattles defense here. If you told me we were dominated by a terrible DL like Indy's last week and we had a healthy OL, then yeah thats a huge concern. But we're talking about one of the better defenses in the league. We dominated Dallas' OL this year and Oaklands last year. Those are the two best OLs in the league. Does that mean they are bad because they got dominated by a good OL? No.

I'm not saying our original OL was "good". But I am saying that they were manageable. This current one is not. It altered the coaches, the play calling, the scheme, the entire season.

Quote:

That's pure conjecture and not supported by the performance of the OL this season when all of those players except Harris were healthy and playing.


The two games that Kalil and Smith were both on the field, we allowed 0 sacks and 3 sacks. So it was up and down. Not sure if having Bradford in there for the first time could have been a cause or not for the 3 sack game. These current guys are downright horrific. I mean we have the worst tackle of the decade in TJ Clemmings (got like a 24.9 rating which was the worst grade PFF has given out in the last decade) manning our blindside right now. That's how bad it has gotten. This line isnt manageable. Our original line was. Either way it obviously needs to get better but this just shows how much these injuries to Kalil, Harris and Smith hurt this team.

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Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:25 pm
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Post Re: What happened to our offensive line
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
I understand what you're saying but the game was literally over. If we had any other kicker on our team outside of Walsh that day, this wouldnt even be discussed


It might simply be discussed in a different context. After all, we're discussing the OL's performance in the game, not simply the outcome of the game. the result of that FG has no real bearing on how the line played.

Quote:
Also, like I said, were talking about Seattles defense here. If you told me we were dominated by a terrible DL like Indy's last week and we had a healthy OL, then yeah thats a huge concern. But we're talking about one of the better defenses in the league.


So what? That's not the only defense the line struggled against last year and as i said earlier, it's the type of defense a team can expect to face when trying to get to a Super Bowl so being able to block better against a defense like that matters.

Quote:
I'm not saying our original OL was "good". But I am saying that they were manageable. This current one is not. It altered the coaches, the play calling, the scheme, the entire season.


I think it altered what they could do last year as well. Again, that's why upgrading their OL was considered a priority going into 2016.

They're managing the line now in much the same way they were managing it in week 1, when Hill was getting the ball out of his hands quickly to avoid sacks.


Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:35 pm
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