Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote: I disagree.

His role prior to 2012 is not mysterious. He ran the scouting department. He conducted the draft. As 1/3 of the "Triangle of Authority" he was supposed to work closely with the head coach to arrive at a consensus.

In other words, he was intimately involved in the decisions that led to how the team was built and managed.
Spielman joined the team after the 2006 draft so the second part of that list should begin in 2007 and include the best draft pick he ever made, Adrian Peterson. Brian Robison was also drafted during that time. Harvin and Rice were good players as well, although we could make a distinction between good players and good picks that worked out well for the team over time.

Frankly, when I look closely at how the Vikes drafted from 2007-2011 and how they've drafted since, I don't see any drastic change or dramatic improvement over the past 5 years.

I disagree heartily and believe the difference is quite clear. And obviously I just took a 4 year span because I was comparing it to a four year span.

Banquo wrote:I disagree heartily and believe the difference is quite clear. And obviously I just took a 4 year span because I was comparing it to a four year span.

That seems a rather convenient and unnecessary distinction if the point was to compare the quality of the team's drafts under Spielman before and after he became GM.

The 2016 draft doesn't help your case much (at least at this point) and the 2007 draft clearly hurts it.

In some ways, trying to wipe the slate clean for the first 5 years Spielman spent with the Vikings actually hurts the case for him because his best pick and the team's only playoff win since hiring him occurred during that period. On top of that, the mental gymnastics involved in somehow writing off the 2011 draft, in particular, as something we can't attribute to Spielman because he wasn't GM are too much for me to accept. Does anyone really think Leslie Frazier was calling the shots in that draft?

Mothman wrote: That seems a rather convenient and unnecessary distinction if the point was to compare the quality of the team's drafts under Spielman before and after he became GM.

The 2016 draft doesn't help your case much (at least at this point) and the 2007 draft clearly hurts it.

In some ways, trying to wipe the slate clean for the first 5 years Spielman spent with the Vikings actually hurts the case for him because his best pick and the team's only playoff win since hiring him occurred during that period. On top of that, the mental gymnastics involved in somehow writing off the 2011 draft, in particular, as something we can't attribute to Spielman because he wasn't GM are too much for me to accept. Does anyone really think Leslie Frazier was calling the shots in that draft?

Lol. Are you accusing me of manipulating the results because I chose equal time spans? That's... odd.

Go back to 2006 then. 7 quality starters in 6 years. 8 since in 4 years, not including Teddy and also considering that Kalil was a great rookie sabotaged by knee injuries. I'll leave the math to you.

Anyone who wants to declare victory or defeat on 2016 when we aren't even through one season is on a fool's errand.

Banquo wrote:Lol. Are you accusing me of manipulating the results because I chose equal time spans? That's... odd.

The equality of the time spans isn't terribly relevant to your point and you could have had even time spans without excluding two seasons.

I'll leave it at that.

Mothman wrote: The equality of the time spans isn't terribly relevant to your point and you could have had even time spans without excluding two seasons.

I'll leave it at that.

That's rather paranoid, pal. We all have access to the same information... I'm not under the impression that I can cook the results and not have anyone find out about it.

Silly old me thought that since I was comparing total numbers of quality starters drafted, it would be fair to review equal spans of time.

Awesome point. I totally agree with you now.

Mothman wrote: That seems a rather convenient and unnecessary distinction if the point was to compare the quality of the team's drafts under Spielman before and after he became GM.

The 2016 draft doesn't help your case much (at least at this point) and the 2007 draft clearly hurts it.

In some ways, trying to wipe the slate clean for the first 5 years Spielman spent with the Vikings actually hurts the case for him because his best pick and the team's only playoff win since hiring him occurred during that period. On top of that, the mental gymnastics involved in somehow writing off the 2011 draft, in particular, as something we can't attribute to Spielman because he wasn't GM are too much for me to accept. Does anyone really think Leslie Frazier was calling the shots in that draft?

My question is, how can anyone NOT believe Spielman was calling a majority of the shots in the 2011 draft? His paws are all over it. The narrative leading up to that draft was that Minnesota needed a QB. Spielman himself even stated this in the pre-draft process. The result? A reach for a QB. The next player picked? Kyle Rudolph. A player who Rick Spielman paid a handsome extension to in exchange for potential a few short years later. The only other player remaining from 2011 on the team? Brandon Fusco. Same thing as Kyle - a premature extension from Rick Spielman based on potential. Let's just say if those weren't true Spielman guys they probably wouldn't have received big-time early extensions (not to say they wouldn't have received extensions eventually).

I will still contend to this day that Minnesota panicked when Jake Locker went to Tennessee. Instead of staying 'true to the board' (something Rick Spielman preached significantly after the 2011 draft - interesting huh?), the first-time Vikings GM (i.e. Rick) panicked and reached for Ponder.

Rick obviously learned quite a bit from that draft. Minnesota could have traded down after Locker went (something we have seen Rick do when a 'target' is off the board). Minnesota could have tried to trade up for Locker (something we have seen Rick do for a QB even - Teddy). Finally, Minnesota could have stayed put and drafted based on the board (and no one can sit here and tell me that Ponder was the best player on the Vikings' board).

My point is the evidence points to Rick being in charge of that 2011 draft. It was a failure and a learning experience. Regardless, that draft did more to hinder the team than help it.

He has been a failure
The team is not consistently improving
The future is not laid out on a promising pass, its slipping lower

Time to move on and Upgrade the entire front office...period.

chicagopurple wrote:He has been a failure
The team is not consistently improving
The future is not laid out on a promising pass, its slipping lower

Time to move on and Upgrade the entire front office...period.

And maybe upgrade more than that!

Sorry, folks, but I'm in a bad mood today...

So... How long until we take a hard look at at the defensive guru head coach who's hand built defense couldn't stop the Colts all game? He has had some #### games on defense this year, god awful ones. Not a lot but enough to make me question the pedigree a little.

IrishViking wrote:So... How long until we take a hard look at at the defensive guru head coach who's hand built defense couldn't stop the Colts all game? He has had some #### games on defense this year, god awful ones. Not a lot but enough to make me question the pedigree a little.

There's no time like the present.

HardcoreVikesFan wrote: My question is, how can anyone NOT believe Spielman was calling a majority of the shots in the 2011 draft? His paws are all over it. The narrative leading up to that draft was that Minnesota needed a QB. Spielman himself even stated this in the pre-draft process. The result? A reach for a QB. The next player picked? Kyle Rudolph. A player who Rick Spielman paid a handsome extension to in exchange for potential a few short years later. The only other player remaining from 2011 on the team? Brandon Fusco. Same thing as Kyle - a premature extension from Rick Spielman based on potential. Let's just say if those weren't true Spielman guys they probably wouldn't have received big-time early extensions (not to say they wouldn't have received extensions eventually).

I will still contend to this day that Minnesota panicked when Jake Locker went to Tennessee. Instead of staying 'true to the board' (something Rick Spielman preached significantly after the 2011 draft - interesting huh?), the first-time Vikings GM (i.e. Rick) panicked and reached for Ponder.

Rick obviously learned quite a bit from that draft. Minnesota could have traded down after Locker went (something we have seen Rick do when a 'target' is off the board). Minnesota could have tried to trade up for Locker (something we have seen Rick do for a QB even - Teddy). Finally, Minnesota could have stayed put and drafted based on the board (and no one can sit here and tell me that Ponder was the best player on the Vikings' board).

My point is the evidence points to Rick being in charge of that 2011 draft. It was a failure and a learning experience. Regardless, that draft did more to hinder the team than help it.

Excellent post, HardcoreVikesFan.

Mothman wrote: There's no time like the present.

When you set aside Zimmer as Zimmer and just look at the "bullet points" as "generic HC" it honestly, is a seriously mixed bag.

25-21 with a playoff loss.
Oversaw the rise and slight drop of the defense.
OC quit on him halfway through 3rd year
Has HCd an utterly enemic Offense entire tenure
Has overseen dumpster fire at Online entire tenure
Defensive consistentcy has been unbalanced
Seems like a solid honest guy


He has shown skill at being in charge of a defense this is true. But he has shown to be utterly flumexed by offense and so far has had as much luck delegating duties for that part of the team as Spielman has had with drafting Olinemen

3 years two OCs two Oline coach's, three terrible offenses

HardcoreVikesFan wrote: My question is, how can anyone NOT believe Spielman was calling a majority of the shots in the 2011 draft? His paws are all over it. The narrative leading up to that draft was that Minnesota needed a QB. Spielman himself even stated this in the pre-draft process. The result? A reach for a QB. The next player picked? Kyle Rudolph. A player who Rick Spielman paid a handsome extension to in exchange for potential a few short years later. The only other player remaining from 2011 on the team? Brandon Fusco. Same thing as Kyle - a premature extension from Rick Spielman based on potential. Let's just say if those weren't true Spielman guys they probably wouldn't have received big-time early extensions (not to say they wouldn't have received extensions eventually).

I will still contend to this day that Minnesota panicked when Jake Locker went to Tennessee. Instead of staying 'true to the board' (something Rick Spielman preached significantly after the 2011 draft - interesting huh?), the first-time Vikings GM (i.e. Rick) panicked and reached for Ponder.

Rick obviously learned quite a bit from that draft. Minnesota could have traded down after Locker went (something we have seen Rick do when a 'target' is off the board). Minnesota could have tried to trade up for Locker (something we have seen Rick do for a QB even - Teddy). Finally, Minnesota could have stayed put and drafted based on the board (and no one can sit here and tell me that Ponder was the best player on the Vikings' board).

My point is the evidence points to Rick being in charge of that 2011 draft. It was a failure and a learning experience. Regardless, that draft did more to hinder the team than help it.

That's not evidence; that's conjecture and supposition based on the theory he panick.