View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:26 pm



Reply to topic  [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 Lack of big plays. 
Author Message
Online
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4398
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Mothman wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Like I said above, by no means am I going to sit here and say Spielman hasn't made his mistakes. I'm clearly a big supporter of him but to build an elite defense and have a strong offense or just offensive line for that matter, isn't as easy as some on here feel like it may be. Look at Seattle as well. Elite defense but also an extremely poor OL.


Yes, after winning a Super Bowl and going to back-to-back Super Bowls. They had cap issues, made tough choices and it's not working out for them up front but this season isn't in a bubble.

By all means, take a closer look at Seattle but look deeper than the present. They're a team that hired a new head coach and GM in 2010. They built an elite defense, built a strong, effective o-line that could move people and create holes for their power running back, found and developed a franchise QB and won a Super Bowl within 4 years. They nearly won 2 in a row.

It's not impossible. Nobody thinks it's easy. Nobody thinks there are a bunch of magical extra draft picks out there that make it easy. It's about decision-making: get the right coach, draft the right QB, make the right choices and yes, have a bit of luck. Above all, hire the right GM.

Spielman's been in MN for a decade and the Vikes have only tasted post-season success once yet people defend him as if he's been a builder of champions. :confused:



Just like you said to me, nobody said he's been a "builder of champions". Clearly you missed the part where I said, by all means he has made his mistakes. It's just I'm not going to sit here and complain and beat a dead horse when he's built an elite defense and got killed by injuries on the offensive side and say he's some bum for a GM and we need a new one. Nobody knows what the offense would've looked like if we had Teddy who looked solid in the offseason, the leagues leading rusher and the two most important positions back in the OL no matter how bad people think Kalil and Smith are. Everyone wants to refer to the past two years and how the offense hasn't been good. It's easy to sit here and say it's terrible now. Look what's happened.

_________________
Image


Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:31 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37200
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Just like you said to me, nobody said he's been a "builder of champions".


Of course not.There's no reason to say that. :) My point was that people defend him as if he's achieved more than he actually has in the past.

Quote:
Clearly you missed the part where I said, by all means he has made his mistakes.


I didn't miss it but whatever mistakes you feel he's made doesn't appear to have undermined your overall confidence in his judgment. Most of what I see from you on the subject is comments like those below.

Quote:
It's just I'm not going to sit here and complain and beat a dead horse when he's built an elite defense and got killed by injuries on the offensive side and say he's some bum for a GM and we need a new one. Nobody knows what the offense would've looked like if we had Teddy who looked solid in the offseason, the leagues leading rusher and the two most important positions back in the OL no matter how bad people think Kalil and Smith are. Everyone wants to refer to the past two years and how the offense hasn't been good. It's easy to sit here and say it's terrible now. Look what's happened.


It's easy to sit here and say the offense is terrible because it's actually terrible. However, I've been critical of the offense for 3 years so it's not like I waited to jump on a bandwagon. People continue referring to the poor quality of the offense over the previous 2 years because it's relevant.

As for Bridgewater. I thought he was on a trajectory that suggested he was going to be a disappointment and a career backup, not a player who was about to guide the Vikings to glory. You're right, nobody knows what might have been but to me, he's another swing-and-a-miss for Spielman at QB.

I don't think Spielman's a "bum GM", just the wrong man for the job and as I've said repeatedly, my estimation of him is not based on this season, it's based on 10 seasons, 5 as VP of Personnel and 5 as GM. In all that time, the Vikes have really only had a good passing game once, in 2009, and it's pretty easy to identify why that season was the exception.

A decade is enough. If he was a fresh hire as a GM and hadn't played such a key role in the 5 seasons prior to his promotion, I'd be inclined to be more patient but Spielman was a key player in the mismanagement of the team that ultimately led to them bottoming out in 2011 and left them facing a monumental rebuild. I'm not impressed with the job he's done rebuilding, although I do give him credit for putting together a very good defense. I just think we've seen enough if his management style and the mediocrity it tends to yield.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:05 am
Profile
Online
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4398
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Mothman wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
PacificNorseWest wrote:
In order to go down the field, the line needs to be able to sustain a block for more than 3.6 seconds, which hasn't been achieved much this season. If you're asking for blind hail mary passes in the general direction of a receiver, then this offense is still better off dinking and dunking...Be realistic here...


Exactly. Many like to just spit things out and not actually think about it. Or think magically that we had all these extra picks we could've used to build an OL and could've still sustained an elite d at the same time.

Everyone has ideas, but I've yet to hear one solution. Or past solution. Pretty easy to sit behind a computer screen and criticize an NFL personnel man acting like you have all the answers. When in reality, they don't. I've laid every draft for the past 3 years out. Nobody acknowledges it, and everyone continues to say, "Spielman doesn't know how to build an OL". No different than if he put all his eggs in the OL basket and passed on guys like Barr, Rhodes, Kendricks, Hunter, Waynes,etc.

Guess what everyone would be saying....."wow look at the lack of depth at LB or CB or DE.. Our defense is terrible. Spielman doesn't have a clue how to build a defense", etc etc. It gets old. I feel like some think we magically had 3 first round picks that Spielman decided not to use on OL. We can't have the best of both worlds here people. Especially when you were rebuilding from the ground up back in 2012.

I'm not sitting here saying the guy didn't make some mistakes along the line. But I'm not going to sit here and say the guy took a bad approach. How can you when we have the defense we do and got raped by injuries on the offensive side. No less he hired a great coach.


Did he? I'd say the jury is still out on that point. Zimmer was "crowned" awfully fast but it still looks to me like the Vikes just hired a terrific defensive coordinator and made him head coach/defensive coordinator.


Listen in all my years following this team and the NFL, I've never seen a team turn their attitude around and believe in their coach like this team does. So yes. Everyone said this guy deserved a head coaching job for years now. What he's done in 3 years with this team. Now he gets killed by injuries and guys are going to question him now? Little premature if you ask me. And weren't you a Leslie Frazier supporter? Not saying you don't support Zimmer but by the looks of the post you don't. And the fact that you backed Frazier makes me scratch my head even more.

_________________
Image


Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:13 am
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:40 am
Posts: 567
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
@PHP
Ya know it's comments like your last one that really makes me doubt your comprehension in conversation. I know it's different on the internet than in real life. but hmmmmm
-
It is to soon to pass judgement on Zimmer...but there are definitely some reasons to be concerned. He was passed over for a HC position for the better part of two decades. Mostly, from what I've read, because of concerns that he wasn't an offensive mind...or offensive-minded enough.
-
The players play hard for him. There have been several coaches who fit that category for the vikings. Fraizer even. Tice. Green. Burns. Grant.
-
all have come and gone....no championships.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:35 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37200
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Listen in all my years following this team and the NFL, I've never seen a team turn their attitude around and believe in their coach like this team does.


I have so maybe we just have a different perspective due to experience and a different idea of what makes a coach great.

Quote:
So yes. Everyone said this guy deserved a head coaching job for years now. What he's done in 3 years with this team. Now he gets killed by injuries and guys are going to question him now? Little premature if you ask me.


I've questioned him from the start, rather than eagerly declaring him the team's best coach since Grant as I've seen many others do. I think he's a good coach but I don't toss around the word great in regards to coaches and players casually. You're right, many people believed Zimmer deserved a head coaching job and many were puzzled that he didn't get one for so long. I think perhaps we've seen both why he deserved a shot and why some teams were reluctant to give him that shot. He's done an excellent job with the defense. His players clearly respect him and play hard for him. However, as I feared when they hired him, he's basically a glorified defensive coordinator. He hasn't had any real vision for the offense and it shows. As an in-game manager of the team, he's been average. His team's offenses have been far too conservative and I think that's been detrimental. He's been a real mix of positives and negatives.

Quote:
And weren't you a Leslie Frazier supporter? Not saying you don't support Zimmer but by the looks of the post you don't.


I support him to the same extent I supported Frazier but I think the two are in very, very different situations. I genuinely like Zimmer and I'd love to see him succeed. but I don't think he's a great head coach and I didn't think his predecessor was either.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:39 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37200
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Nunin wrote:
@PHP
Ya know it's comments like your last one that really makes me doubt your comprehension in conversation. I know it's different on the internet than in real life. but hmmmmm
-
It is to soon to pass judgement on Zimmer...but there are definitely some reasons to be concerned. He was passed over for a HC position for the better part of two decades. Mostly, from what I've read, because of concerns that he wasn't an offensive mind...or offensive-minded enough.
-
The players play hard for him. There have been several coaches who fit that category for the vikings. Fraizer even. Tice. Green. Burns. Grant.
-
all have come and gone....no championships.


Exactly and I see signs that Zimmer is more likely to fall into that rather frustrating Vikings tradition than become the coach who breaks it. :( He might become a great head coach but I think it's too soon to put that label on him and as you said, there are reasons to be concerned.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:42 am
Profile
Online
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4398
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Nunin wrote:
@PHP
Ya know it's comments like your last one that really makes me doubt your comprehension in conversation. I know it's different on the internet than in real life. but hmmmmm
-
It is to soon to pass judgement on Zimmer...but there are definitely some reasons to be concerned. He was passed over for a HC position for the better part of two decades. Mostly, from what I've read, because of concerns that he wasn't an offensive mind...or offensive-minded enough.
-
The players play hard for him. There have been several coaches who fit that category for the vikings. Fraizer even. Tice. Green. Burns. Grant.
-
all have come and gone....no championships.


Doubt my comprehension? How so? I can say now that both you and mothman took me saying "great" way out of context. I'm not saying he's the next Vince Lombardi. So sorrry that I worded that wrong. However I will say he's a good coach. I haven't heard anything regarding him not being offensive minded. That goes for any defensive coach. I've heard that he was too straight forward and says it how it is. That supposedly pushed people away

_________________
Image


Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:05 am
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6343
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Nunin wrote:
The players play hard for him. There have been several coaches who fit that category for the vikings. Fraizer even. Tice. Green. Burns. Grant.
-
all have come and gone....no championships.

So that's the only measuring stick? By that logic, Bud Grant, a Hall-of-Famer, wasn't a great head coach. Really?

Look, nobody wants a championship more than I do. In 3 years, I'll hit 50 years as a Vikings fan. This sucks. The free-fall after the 5-0 start? Sucks. The loss in '98? Sucks. '09? Sucks. The 4 Super Bowl losses? I watched them all, and they all sucked. But if the only standard for coaching excellence is a championship, then every coach the Vikings have ever had is a failure. The truth is that every Vikings coach since Bud Grant has led his team to the playoffs at least once except for Les Steckel. We've had some good coaches here, and some good teams.

I just don't think it's fair to place every Vikings coach on the same level. Brad Childress isn't on the same level as Grant. Neither are Tice or Frazier. They're just not. But none of those is on the same level as Les Steckel. That would be just as unfair.

Where will Zimmer end up? There's no way of knowing, but for now, he has a winning record and a division championship in 2+ seasons. Childress had two division titles in four years, but the players all wanted to dump him in Lake Minnetonka wearing a concrete ankle bracelet. The players will run through a wall for Zimmer, so it's a good bet he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Maybe we all ought to settle back and let this play out before we either crown him OR declare him a bust.

_________________
Image


Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:15 am
Profile
Commissioner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:47 am
Posts: 10040
Location: Burbank, California
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Mothman wrote:
Nunin wrote:
@PHP
Ya know it's comments like your last one that really makes me doubt your comprehension in conversation. I know it's different on the internet than in real life. but hmmmmm
-
It is to soon to pass judgement on Zimmer...but there are definitely some reasons to be concerned. He was passed over for a HC position for the better part of two decades. Mostly, from what I've read, because of concerns that he wasn't an offensive mind...or offensive-minded enough.
-
The players play hard for him. There have been several coaches who fit that category for the vikings. Fraizer even. Tice. Green. Burns. Grant.
-
all have come and gone....no championships.


Exactly and I see signs that Zimmer is more likely to fall into that rather frustrating Vikings tradition than become the coach who breaks it. :( He might become a great head coach but I think it's too soon to put that label on him and as you said, there are reasons to be concerned.


I agree with both of you. Maybe I see things differently than most on the board about Zimmer, who is a heck of a defensive coach, but seems to me the offense was oftentimes playing small ball or at least conservatively even when guys were healthy. One of the reasons why is the offense had no signature, which also comes down to Turner trying to pound square pegs into round holes because of his precious system. But seriously, shouldn't a head coach take a closer look at the team personnel and hire an offensive coordinator according to the talent?

As a defensive-minded coach, perhaps Zimmer has fallen for the myth that defense wins championships. It doesn't. Good teams win championships. Quality from every unit is needed. That doesn't mean every unit (offense, defense, special teams) has to be perfect but none of them can suck. The Vikings presently have a mostly dink and dunk offense which cannot do its job and score enough points, even if the defense plays hard.

It's "half a team" time for the Vikings yet again. And the head coach must be held accountable for changing that dynamic.


Last edited by losperros on Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:21 am
Profile
Online
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Posts: 4398
Location: Watertown, NY
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Mothman wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Listen in all my years following this team and the NFL, I've never seen a team turn their attitude around and believe in their coach like this team does.


I have so maybe we just have a different perspective due to experience and a different idea of what makes a coach great.

Quote:
So yes. Everyone said this guy deserved a head coaching job for years now. What he's done in 3 years with this team. Now he gets killed by injuries and guys are going to question him now? Little premature if you ask me.


I've questioned him from the start, rather than eagerly declaring him the team's best coach since Grant as I've seen many others do. I think he's a good coach but I don't toss around the word great in regards to coaches and players casually. You're right, many people believed Zimmer deserved a head coaching job and many were puzzled that he didn't get one for so long. I think perhaps we've seen both why he deserved a shot and why some teams were reluctant to give him that shot. He's done an excellent job with the defense. His players clearly respect him and play hard for him. However, as I feared when they hired him, he's basically a glorified defensive coordinator. He hasn't had any real vision for the offense and it shows. As an in-game manager of the team, he's been average. His team's offenses have been far too conservative and I think that's been detrimental. He's been a real mix of positives and negatives.

Quote:
And weren't you a Leslie Frazier supporter? Not saying you don't support Zimmer but by the looks of the post you don't.


I support him to the same extent I supported Frazier but I think the two are in very, very different situations. I genuinely like Zimmer and I'd love to see him succeed. but I don't think he's a great head coach and I didn't think his predecessor was either.


Like i said, you guys pinpointed the word great and went above and beyond with it. I'm not comparing him to great coaches so clearly I worded it wrong. However I am a coach. Of two sports. Grew up watching my father coach and having my father as a coach. 21 years worth to be exact for him. I know what it takes and what it looks like to be a great coach. I've seen it all. I will say that Zimmer is a good coach and has some traits of a great coach. Something Frazier didn't have IMO. I love his old school approach, his demeanor, the toughness he instills in these players, his discipline, etc. etc.

_________________
Image


Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:21 am
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6343
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Like i said, you guys pinpointed the word great and went above and beyond with it. I'm not comparing him to great coaches so clearly I worded it wrong. However I am a coach. Of two sports. Grew up watching my father coach and having my father as a coach. 21 years worth to be exact for him. I know what it takes and what it looks like to be a great coach. I've seen it all. I will say that Zimmer is a good coach and has some traits of a great coach. Something Frazier didn't have IMO. I love his old school approach, his demeanor, the toughness he instills in these players, his discipline, etc. etc.

For what it's worth, I agree with you to the degree that Zimmer shows SIGNS of being a great coach. I'm solidly in his corner. But I admit he's not there.

Here are three areas I can think of where he needs to improve.

a) He's GOT to get this offense figured out. It's a very tall order, given the state of this O-line, and it's not gonna happen this season, but it's been three years of low output. Got to find a way to get some points on the board. Teams with great defenses win championships, but it's very rare for a team that relies exclusively on its defense to win a championship.

b) He still makes some mistakes of inexperience. His record on challenges is abysmal, with the notable exception being the 2-for-2 he had against the Cardinals (although 66,000 people in the stands made both of those calls easily). He's made some mistakes in clock management, particularly the first game against Detroit -- it cost us the game. Gotta clean those things up.

c) He has yet to establish himself (or the Vikings) as a coach (or a team) that can win late. We've held some leads for great wins, but I can't think of many instances where we've erased a fourth-quarter deficit to win, especially late in the fourth. The Bears game in Chicago last season comes to mind, but I can't think of others. Part of this, of course, is tied to having an offense that can put up points.

Just my 2 cents. I think he's done well for his first head coaching position. But he's not on the level of Belichick, Carroll, etc. Not yet.

_________________
Image


Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:41 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37200
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Where will Zimmer end up? There's no way of knowing, but for now, he has a winning record and a division championship in 2+ seasons. Childress had two division titles in four years, but the players all wanted to dump him in Lake Minnetonka wearing a concrete ankle bracelet. The players will run through a wall for Zimmer, so it's a good bet he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Maybe we all ought to settle back and let this play out before we either crown him OR declare him a bust.


We should let it play out but as far as I know, he hasn't actually been declared a bust. However, it's certainly fair to criticize him almost 3 full seasons into his tenure with the team. his strengths and weaknesses seem apparent.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Like i said, you guys pinpointed the word great and went above and beyond with it. I'm not comparing him to great coaches so clearly I worded it wrong. However I am a coach. Of two sports. Grew up watching my father coach and having my father as a coach. 21 years worth to be exact for him. I know what it takes and what it looks like to be a great coach. I've seen it all. I will say that Zimmer is a good coach and has some traits of a great coach. Something Frazier didn't have IMO. I love his old school approach, his demeanor, the toughness he instills in these players, his discipline, etc. etc.


I agree that Zim's a good coach and I also agree he has some traits of a great coach. He's a great assistant coach/defensive coordinator so in that sense, he's already a great coach. If partnered with the right offensive mind, maybe he could even be a great head coach. He clearly understands defense and has a handle on what kind of personnel best fits his defensive approach. He has a vision for that unit and it shows. I'm thinking he'll need to be paired with offensive minds that have similar vision and understanding of offensive personnel for him to achieve greatness as a head coach. That's one reason I'm not crazy about Spielman staying in charge going forward, although I realize Zimmer's fate is probably tied to Spielman's.

As Kapp said, we'll have to see how it plays out.

If you don't mind me asking, what sports do you coach and what does your father coach?


Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:42 am
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6343
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Mothman wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Where will Zimmer end up? There's no way of knowing, but for now, he has a winning record and a division championship in 2+ seasons. Childress had two division titles in four years, but the players all wanted to dump him in Lake Minnetonka wearing a concrete ankle bracelet. The players will run through a wall for Zimmer, so it's a good bet he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Maybe we all ought to settle back and let this play out before we either crown him OR declare him a bust.


We should let it play out but as far as I know, he hasn't actually been declared a bust. However, it's certainly fair to criticize him almost 3 full seasons into his tenure with the team. his strengths and weaknesses seem apparent.

I agree with you totally, Jim.

Over in the Lions thread from Thanksgiving, I outline three major areas I think he needs to improve. There are likely others -- I just like odd numbers. 8)

I think he has the potential to be a great coach for the precise reasons PHP outlined. But he's not there yet, and the real tale of the tape, as we all know, is winning. If he can win a championship with a great defense and high-school offense, more power to him. But it's highly unlikely because it takes a historically great defense to do that (see the 2000 Ravens). I do think, however, that he's the kind of guy who will bust his butt to fix what's broken, including his own coaching. He's really good at in-game adjustments -- now let's see if he can make a major adjustment in the team's offense.

_________________
Image


Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:47 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37200
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
For what it's worth, I agree with you to the degree that Zimmer shows SIGNS of being a great coach. I'm solidly in his corner. But I admit he's not there.

Here are three areas I can think of where he needs to improve.

a) He's GOT to get this offense figured out. It's a very tall order, given the state of this O-line, and it's not gonna happen this season, but it's been three years of low output. Got to find a way to get some points on the board. Teams with great defenses win championships, but it's very rare for a team that relies exclusively on its defense to win a championship.

b) He still makes some mistakes of inexperience. His record on challenges is abysmal, with the notable exception being the 2-for-2 he had against the Cardinals (although 66,000 people in the stands made both of those calls easily). He's made some mistakes in clock management, particularly the first game against Detroit -- it cost us the game. Gotta clean those things up.

c) He has yet to establish himself (or the Vikings) as a coach (or a team) that can win late. We've held some leads for great wins, but I can't think of many instances where we've erased a fourth-quarter deficit to win, especially late in the fourth. The Bears game in Chicago last season comes to mind, but I can't think of others. Part of this, of course, is tied to having an offense that can put up points.

Just my 2 cents. I think he's done well for his first head coaching position. But he's not on the level of Belichick, Carroll, etc. Not yet.


All very good points, Kapp. As a subset of your first point, I think part of getting the offense figured out needs to involve a shift in philosophy. As Craig mentioned above, the offense has shown a tendency to play conservatively even when healthy. There's a real tendency to settle for FGs and to quickly go into a shell with a second half lead. It seems Zimmer prefers to get a lead and then hang onto the ball and count on his defense to close out the game. It's a strategy that gets him into trouble.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:49 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37200
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
I agree with you totally, Jim.

Over in the Lions thread from Thanksgiving, I outline three major areas I think he needs to improve. There are likely others -- I just like odd numbers. 8)

I think he has the potential to be a great coach for the precise reasons PHP outlined. But he's not there yet, and the real tale of the tape, as we all know, is winning. If he can win a championship with a great defense and high-school offense, more power to him. But it's highly unlikely because it takes a historically great defense to do that (see the 2000 Ravens). I do think, however, that he's the kind of guy who will bust his butt to fix what's broken, including his own coaching. He's really good at in-game adjustments -- now let's see if he can make a major adjustment in the team's offense.


I hope he can. As I said above, it may be a question of pairing him with the right offensive minds. I'm not convinced Shurmur would be the best choice as the next OC so I hope his "field promotion" doesn't automatically translate to getting the OC job next season. Maybe he'll be the best candidate for it but I'd like to see them consider their options.

You're absolutely right that winning a championship with a "high-school offense" (I laughed at that one) is a very tall order. That's taking the extra hard road and winning in the NFL seems hard enough already.

The upcoming offseason will present a lot of opportunity for change. Let's see where this goes.

Meanwhile, this season isn't over just yet so let's see where that goes too!


Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:55 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37200
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Look, nobody wants a championship more than I do. In 3 years, I'll hit 50 years as a Vikings fan.


I just had to acknowledge this because I'll be hitting that same anniversary and I know we're not alone I sure hope we get a Super Bowl win before that 50 year mark comes and goes.

For any fans here who think I sound increasingly impatient, Kapp's comment above explains why. It's been a long wait.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:02 pm
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:40 am
Posts: 567
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Nunin wrote:
@PHP
Ya know it's comments like your last one that really makes me doubt your comprehension in conversation. I know it's different on the internet than in real life. but hmmmmm
-
It is to soon to pass judgement on Zimmer...but there are definitely some reasons to be concerned. He was passed over for a HC position for the better part of two decades. Mostly, from what I've read, because of concerns that he wasn't an offensive mind...or offensive-minded enough.
-
The players play hard for him. There have been several coaches who fit that category for the vikings. Fraizer even. Tice. Green. Burns. Grant.
-
all have come and gone....no championships.


Doubt my comprehension? How so? I can say now that both you and mothman took me saying "great" way out of context. I'm not saying he's the next Vince Lombardi. So sorrry that I worded that wrong. However I will say he's a good coach. I haven't heard anything regarding him not being offensive minded. That goes for any defensive coach. I've heard that he was too straight forward and says it how it is. That supposedly pushed people away


I said that because you seemed to take Jim's criticism of Zimmer as a vote of no support rather than just a criticism. I should have just let Jim, explain it before I jumped in. Sorry for that.

AS for Zimmer's past, I heard more of the 'straight forward blutness' talk than I did concern over his ability to coach an offense...but I did hear that as well.

I think he's a good coach...but like anybody doing something for the first time, he has things to learn and mistakes to make. I like him so far.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:16 pm
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:40 am
Posts: 567
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
So that's the only measuring stick? By that logic, Bud Grant, a Hall-of-Famer, wasn't a great head coach. Really?



Absolutely not and it's not what I meant. I was referring the comment and the implication that motivating the players and creating a culture in the locker room makes a great coach. The list I supplied has, arguably, a couple of great coaches but all of their teams played hard for them and loved them. I threw in the championship thing just as an aside...it takes more than a great coach to win a championship.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Look, nobody wants a championship more than I do. In 3 years, I'll hit 50 years as a Vikings fan. This sucks. The free-fall after the 5-0 start? Sucks. The loss in '98? Sucks. '09? Sucks. The 4 Super Bowl losses? I watched them all, and they all sucked. But if the only standard for coaching excellence is a championship, then every coach the Vikings have ever had is a failure. The truth is that every Vikings coach since Bud Grant has led his team to the playoffs at least once except for Les Steckel. We've had some good coaches here, and some good teams.

I just don't think it's fair to place every Vikings coach on the same level. Brad Childress isn't on the same level as Grant. Neither are Tice or Frazier. They're just not. But none of those is on the same level as Les Steckel. That would be just as unfair.

Where will Zimmer end up? There's no way of knowing, but for now, he has a winning record and a division championship in 2+ seasons. Childress had two division titles in four years, but the players all wanted to dump him in Lake Minnetonka wearing a concrete ankle bracelet. The players will run through a wall for Zimmer, so it's a good bet he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Maybe we all ought to settle back and let this play out before we either crown him OR declare him a bust.
[/quote]

I agree fully. His legacy is being written as we type.

Same with this defense. In terms of my definition of elite? This group is not there yet. I've seen this team since the early 70's and I've seen them have elite defenses.

I think Seattle has an elite defense and Denver is right there close.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:26 pm
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:40 am
Posts: 567
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Mothman wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Look, nobody wants a championship more than I do. In 3 years, I'll hit 50 years as a Vikings fan.


I just had to acknowledge this because I'll be hitting that same anniversary and I know we're not alone I sure hope we get a Super Bowl win before that 50 year mark comes and goes.

For any fans here who think I sound increasingly impatient, Kapp's comment above explains why. It's been a long wait.


It isn't just the wait either. It's also the losses. This franchise lost a superbowl while fielding at team that had the #1 offense and #1 defense. The 98 team with the most potent offense....blah blah blah, you know what i'm saying.... :deadhorse:


Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:30 pm
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:40 am
Posts: 567
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Mothman wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
I agree with you totally, Jim.

Over in the Lions thread from Thanksgiving, I outline three major areas I think he needs to improve. There are likely others -- I just like odd numbers. 8)

I think he has the potential to be a great coach for the precise reasons PHP outlined. But he's not there yet, and the real tale of the tape, as we all know, is winning. If he can win a championship with a great defense and high-school offense, more power to him. But it's highly unlikely because it takes a historically great defense to do that (see the 2000 Ravens). I do think, however, that he's the kind of guy who will bust his butt to fix what's broken, including his own coaching. He's really good at in-game adjustments -- now let's see if he can make a major adjustment in the team's offense.


I hope he can. As I said above, it may be a question of pairing him with the right offensive minds. I'm not convinced Shurmur would be the best choice as the next OC so I hope his "field promotion" doesn't automatically translate to getting the OC job next season. Maybe he'll be the best candidate for it but I'd like to see them consider their options.

You're absolutely right that winning a championship with a "high-school offense" (I laughed at that one) is a very tall order. That's taking the extra hard road and winning in the NFL seems hard enough already.

The upcoming offseason will present a lot of opportunity for change. Let's see where this goes.

Meanwhile, this season isn't over just yet so let's see where that goes too!


I am tending to agree about Shurmur and next season... but I abhor the idea of yet another offensive system being installed.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:31 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6343
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Mothman wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
For what it's worth, I agree with you to the degree that Zimmer shows SIGNS of being a great coach. I'm solidly in his corner. But I admit he's not there.

Here are three areas I can think of where he needs to improve.

a) He's GOT to get this offense figured out. It's a very tall order, given the state of this O-line, and it's not gonna happen this season, but it's been three years of low output. Got to find a way to get some points on the board. Teams with great defenses win championships, but it's very rare for a team that relies exclusively on its defense to win a championship.

b) He still makes some mistakes of inexperience. His record on challenges is abysmal, with the notable exception being the 2-for-2 he had against the Cardinals (although 66,000 people in the stands made both of those calls easily). He's made some mistakes in clock management, particularly the first game against Detroit -- it cost us the game. Gotta clean those things up.

c) He has yet to establish himself (or the Vikings) as a coach (or a team) that can win late. We've held some leads for great wins, but I can't think of many instances where we've erased a fourth-quarter deficit to win, especially late in the fourth. The Bears game in Chicago last season comes to mind, but I can't think of others. Part of this, of course, is tied to having an offense that can put up points.

Just my 2 cents. I think he's done well for his first head coaching position. But he's not on the level of Belichick, Carroll, etc. Not yet.


All very good points, Kapp. As a subset of your first point, I think part of getting the offense figured out needs to involve a shift in philosophy. As Craig mentioned above, the offense has shown a tendency to play conservatively even when healthy. There's a real tendency to settle for FGs and to quickly go into a shell with a second half lead. It seems Zimmer prefers to get a lead and then hang onto the ball and count on his defense to close out the game. It's a strategy that gets him into trouble.

Yeah, we all saw that "second-half shell" against Arizona. The team moved the ball really well in the first half and got a bonus from the defense with Rhodes' big return. Arizona had almost a 2-1 advantage in time of possession, but the Vikings had 20 points and the lead.

Then in the second half, the entire tempo and sense of urgency on offense just went flat after Patterson's return. And the feeling of tension in the stadium was palpable. When the offense was on the field, everybody was squirming in their seats. When the defense was on the field, it was a freaking party. Both the offense and the defense did a complete 180 after halftime. The offense went into a shell, while the defense completely stifled Arizona.

It worked that weekend, but it's not a sustainable formula.

_________________
Image


Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:59 pm
Profile
Pro Bowl Elite Player

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:34 am
Posts: 980
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
i wouldn't worry about another offensive system being installed because the way i see it we don't have ANY offensive system in place. that game was downright painful to watch on thursday. and as far as our defense goes, are they really in the great category? twice against the lions this year they had them backed inside their own 5 and they easily drove it into field goal range near the end of both games and ended up winning.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:29 pm
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37200
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Nunin wrote:
It isn't just the wait either. It's also the losses. This franchise lost a superbowl while fielding at team that had the #1 offense and #1 defense. The 98 team with the most potent offense....blah blah blah, you know what i'm saying.... :deadhorse:


Yes, I do. It hasn't just been a long wait. It's been a particularly painful wait!


Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:09 am
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 2229
Location: Seattle, Wa
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Purple Reign wrote:
PacificNorseWest wrote:
In order to go down the field, the line needs to be able to sustain a block for more than 3.6 seconds, which hasn't been achieved much this season. If you're asking for blind hail mary passes in the general direction of a receiver, then this offense is still better off dinking and dunking...Be realistic here...


The point is you have to keep the defense honest. If you never throw a deep ball, then they aren't going to worry about a deep pass and sit on the short throws. You don't even have to complete the pass, just the fact you attempt a couple keeps them somewhat honest. Just like if you don't have a running game you still have to run it a few times.


I agree with the philosophy, but the methodology of it is hard to apply to this particular offense. I would agree if the line could sustain a block long enough for Sam to hurl it down the field like that, but essentially, what's being asked, is that the Vikings throw away a play that has a high probability of a sack or failure in general, in order to make the attempt at stretching the defense. It seemed to work in weeks 2-5, in spots, but the regression up front is real here...I know everyone loves to nitpick and offer opinions of the playcalling, but in reality, you only need to average 3.4 yards per play in order to get a first down. Chunk yardage would be nice, but when a lot of those attempts end with chunks of negative yardage, it digs the hole even deeper. Playing it safe is a tiresome objective and one that requires efficiency, but given how this team is built, it's almost essential that the defense is relied upon...because that's how Zimmer wanted it, right? Whether he and Spielman knew the repercussions of that or not is almost irrelevant at this very point...The Vikings need to be meticulous in how they handle the offense or a lot of these games get away from them quickly. And honestly, without much of a running game, it's hard to accept the idea that the Vikings try and keep a defense honest when everyone in the country knows they cannot run the football.

Patterson's involvement is a nice touch. McKinnon's effort to stretch negative or no gains into 3 or 4 yards is important. Diggs underneath and Thielen making plays in the cover 2 zone is huge...Give it time, they will get there, but they have to pick very critical spots. Puts a lot on playcalling, but I don't see how the structure of this offense lends itself to anything else right now.


Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:28 pm
Profile
Practice Squad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:30 pm
Posts: 12
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
I don't know if it's habit, tendencies, mechanics, or poor play design, but the only time I have seen Bradford fake a body movement, or pump-fake was on the TD throw to Thielen in the first quarter of the game against Houston. His mechanics are so predictable and telegraphed that it gives the secondary little reason for guessing and blowing coverage. I think this, coupled with our s hit O-line translates into crappy conservative dink/dunks.


Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:32 pm
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37200
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Trkn10 wrote:
I don't know if it's habit, tendencies, mechanics, or poor play design, but the only time I have seen Bradford fake a body movement, or pump-fake was on the TD throw to Thielen in the first quarter of the game against Houston. His mechanics are so predictable and telegraphed that it gives the secondary little reason for guessing and blowing coverage. I think this, coupled with our s hit O-line translates into crappy conservative dink/dunks.


There's not much reason for unpredictable mechanics if the goal on almost every play is to get rid of the ball very quickly. The former interferes with the latter goal.

The bad OL is definitely a factor but I suspect the biggest factor is Pat Shurmur, who's practically running a horizontal passing game. He's a well-known conservative, "dink and dunk" play caller. It's a complaint about him that goes back years. I suspect his ultra-conservative approach is just what Zimmer wants and it may be part of the philosophical difference of opinion the led to Turner's resignation.


Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:46 pm
Profile
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 pm
Posts: 1542
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
We had something like 5 4th & 2's and a 4 & 1...we need to convert them. I would think it would be the responsibility of the receivers to run a route that would allow for a 1st down. Or is Bradford getting rid of the ball that quick.
Our running game the long carry up the middle was 2yds. And some minus yard plays.
Most of running yardage was left or right. But our running yards per carry was 5.1


Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:08 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 2229
Location: Seattle, Wa
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
Mothman wrote:
Trkn10 wrote:
I don't know if it's habit, tendencies, mechanics, or poor play design, but the only time I have seen Bradford fake a body movement, or pump-fake was on the TD throw to Thielen in the first quarter of the game against Houston. His mechanics are so predictable and telegraphed that it gives the secondary little reason for guessing and blowing coverage. I think this, coupled with our s hit O-line translates into crappy conservative dink/dunks.


There's not much reason for unpredictable mechanics if the goal on almost every play is to get rid of the ball very quickly. The former interferes with the latter goal.

The bad OL is definitely a factor but I suspect the biggest factor is Pat Shurmur, who's practically running a horizontal passing game. He's a well-known conservative, "dink and dunk" play caller. It's a complaint about him that goes back years. I suspect his ultra-conservative approach is just what Zimmer wants and it may be part of the philosophical difference of opinion the led to Turner's resignation.


I wouldn't say this is much of an issue so long as they executed most of the time. "Most" almost means all of the time, given the small margin for error in an offense like that.


Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:15 pm
Profile
Starter

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:32 pm
Posts: 130
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
the horrible OL doesn't give enough time for deep routes to develop. Bradford has all of 1sec or two before he passes. Not enough time for receivers to run deep.


Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:24 pm
Profile
All Pro Elite Player

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 1223
Location: St. Paul, MN
Post Re: Lack of big plays.
The-Purple-Reign wrote:
the horrible OL doesn't give enough time for deep routes to develop. Bradford has all of 1sec or two before he passes. Not enough time for receivers to run deep.


I think everyone is pretty much in agreement about that. However, it doesn't mean you shouldn't at least try a couple of deep passes (try a moving pocket or max protect). Our running game is bad too but we don't completely abandon the run like we do the deep pass. A good example today was the Arizona/Atlanta game. Palmer wasn't getting any time all game either but they were still throwing passes more than 10 yards.


Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:39 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 808vikingsfan, Baidu [Spider], dead_poet, Husker Vike, me4get, Pondering Her Percy, PsyDanny, Rhodes Closed, ThePiper and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.