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 Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgiving 
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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
randomghost11 wrote:
Maybe if the offense could put up more than 16 points in either game vs the Lions than the defense wouldn't be able to cough it up

We had the lead what does it matter how many points you put up? Yeah it would be nice putting 40 points a game up but the offense is missing to many pieces.
Last game Lions drove 99 yards on the defense and we couldn't stop them.

So it's a team effort the offense has to many injuries and the defense is under performing.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:33 am
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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Has O-line been a priority in the early draft rounds for Spielman. No. But not every team builds a line that way. The Vikings have gone the "draft low and develop" route. As I've said many times, it may not be the way we think he ought to build an O-line, but it's what he's chosen to do, and there's precedent for it. He's far from the only GM to go this route.


True, he's far from the only GM to go that route but explaining Spielman's fundamental strategy and noting that other teams have used it doesn't excuse his failure in this area and it's the failure that's the problem.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
IIsweet wrote:
Having read all of your thoughts, there is much over reaction and undue hatred being thrown around.
I have always been overly critical of Spielman and if I am placing blame anywhere, it's him.
Bradford didn't draft or sign these OL and continue to pay for subpar performances.
Zimmer may have selected Norv, Shurmur, and the coaching staff, but the personnel is not entirely on him.

Bradford has the natural tools and when given some time, has the ability to make every throw. Biggest knock on him is just how quickly he checks down and his lack of mobility.

If I am Zygi..... I look at my roster and ask if it's a SB contending roster. IMO, not even close. Defensively, I think that we are good enough to win a SB, realistically another year though and they are special. I hope that we finally add a big fat strong DT. Joseph is a great talent, but remember the Williams wall? I would look for a big fella like fat Pat was.

Offensively though I think we suck. I think that we have a lot of really good pieces but their talents are not being utilized to the fullest. Problem starts and ends with the OL. Very little can be accomplished if we cannot either open up running lanes or pass block. You have to be able to do one or the other to win. Right now, they cannot do neither. The QB cannot feel comfortable allowing for the WR routes to develop. The RB have nowhere to run, the OC has no idea how to move the ball because these guys continue to get hurt and now our line looks like Legos...

So, again, the blame falls on the OL, but I think it's a bigger problem. I think the problem is Spielman. He obviously believes that athletes and play makers win games, but he does not value building the OL. He has missed often with his selection of OL in the draft and not even that good with FA. Until he believes that you win the LOS and you win the game.... We will continue to be disappointed as fans.
On a side note, ever thought that we're the team that always drafts the guy that falls ???? Floyd, Patterson, Bridgewater, Treadwell, Alexander, Clemmings.

I'm going to challenge you (and others) on this one.

Phil Loadholt -- not an All-Pro, but a solid tackle, especially in the running game. Spielman didn't cause his achilles to tear.
Matt Kalil -- considered to be easily the best O-lineman coming out of college when he was drafted, and made the Pro Bowl as a rookie. Spielman didn't cause him to suddenly go into suck mode, or to be constantly hurt, or to go on IR. And how many of us would KILL to have him at LT right now?
John Sullivan -- on the cusp of being an All-Pro until he hurt his back. Spielman didn't cause his back to go out, nor did he force Sullivan to lift weights before his back was ready.
Brandon Fusco -- among the top-rated guards on PFF a couple of years ago. Now he gets knocked on his a$$ every other play. Why has he descended into suckitude? I'm sure Spielman is as perplexed as anyone.
Joe Berger -- good enough to replace Sullivan, but now he's hurt.
Alex Boone -- after a slow start, he's been solid, but even he has missed time due to injury.
Andre Smith -- we can argue whether he was any good, but the fact remains that he was a high draft choice and gave us at least a chance of being average at RT -- until he got hurt and went on IR.
Mike Harris -- Widely regarded as one of our top O-linemen last year. Where is he now? He's like Jimmy Hoffa -- has disappeared without a trace. Rick's fault?

Has O-line been a priority in the early draft rounds for Spielman. No. But not every team builds a line that way. The Vikings have gone the "draft low and develop" route. As I've said many times, it may not be the way we think he ought to build an O-line, but it's what he's chosen to do, and there's precedent for it. He's far from the only GM to go this route. And we can sit here and go "Dallas Cowboys" all we want, but the Cowboys haven't won squat for years, and until they do, there's no reason to make their "draft the entire line in the first round" the model. Their defense is not terribly good, and I believe they will get exposed in the playoffs.

Here's the other truth ... we are 6-5, having played with a line that has had 10 or 11 different combinations due to injury. I honestly believe that if our opening day line had been able to stay together, we might very well be 8-3 or better right now. Continuity is everything with an O-line, and we've had none. I believe there has only been one instance this entire season where the same 5 guys were together for 2 games in a row -- we won the second of those two games against the Cardinals.

We all like to say, "Can't make injuries an excuse." That's a nice buzz phrase, but the truth is that talent wins in this league, and virtually every O-lineman close to having real talent is on the shelf. When you're trotting out Willie Beavers at RT and T.J. Clemmings at LT, it's a miracle this team even had a chance to win on the road.

Obviously something's got to be done for next season. But I doubt you'll ever see another year like this for injuries to one unit of a Vikings football team. It's been brutal.


Okay, let's see...
Loadholt, has been injured recently and at 6'8 340, players don't last very long. He had a productive career but signs of injury were apparent. Was actually surprised that they resigned him and that he thought he could come back and play.
Kalil has been regressing every year and never had another LT to compete. Knee surgeries had become an annual occurrence. Signs had pointed to a very short injury plagued career for quite some time now. Would I have drafted him when he came out, probably so. We had a need and he was prototype and seemingly ready to plug and play.
Sullivan also was returning from multiple injuries. True about the weightlifting, but that's like telling a fat guy to stop eating... Not going to happen! Back injuries ruin football careers, ALWAYS! A good friend of mine was a 2nd rd OL that had his career ended by back injuries much to soon. Once they start, they don't go away.
Fusco, surprising to me how poorly his play has been since his first couple of years. Just been very dissappointing his last few years... I had always thought that we had found a gem, but he gets manhandled now and has for a few years.
Berger, tough to count on a 34 year old to continually battle young bulls that are bigger and stronger than you. Remember, he had always been a career backup until Sullivan started getting hurt.
Boone I thought was a very good signing. He has just had so much inconsistency surrounding him. + for Ricky
Smith had been widely regarded as a bust prior to coming here. He's serviceable at best.
Harris ??? Know idea what the heck he's doing! I would never blame a GM on that unless they knew something prior, heck, I still don't even know what his deal is ?
Jake Long experiment was a desperation move and played out that way

I agree that Spielman cannot control injury, I also know that this OL has been decimmated like none I have ever seen before. The Vikings are doing exceptionally well considering the injuries they have had to overcome. There's a chance of even being 11-5. Albeit unlikely, but a chance. I really enjoy watching the team compete and have a real chance at winning every game. They're a few pieces away like I said. Those pieces are along the OL.
However, there were warning signs and Spielman hoped to survive this season. It didn't work. The fact that we have salary constraints is the GMs fault. In his position, he is to protect the shield, the Minnesota Vikings, more than he is the player. It's a tough job and you must have the right type of personality, and I think that he does that to a pretty good drum. However, not heading the warning signs and running oft injured OL out there is never a good idea. Could I have done a better job, probably not. I am in a similar position dealing with player personnel daily. You have to always develop the backups and you hope that they are ready to produce, not be completely overwhelmed.
Special OL are rare. However, not investing in them until 3rd rd picks and hoping to find hidden small school gems is never a good idea, IMO. Nearly 1/2 of the offensive players on the field on EVERY PLAY are OL !!!
Think about that for a minute.... 11 offensive players and always 5 OL on the field.
You gave me our best most prolific 7-8 OL and all of them, but Boone, had serious concerns coming into the season. You still had 80% of the most important unit to a teams success in limbo with health concerns, physical or mental. What happens next you hope doesn't, but the warning signs were there.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:08 am
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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
IIsweet wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
IIsweet wrote:
Having read all of your thoughts, there is much over reaction and undue hatred being thrown around.
I have always been overly critical of Spielman and if I am placing blame anywhere, it's him.
Bradford didn't draft or sign these OL and continue to pay for subpar performances.
Zimmer may have selected Norv, Shurmur, and the coaching staff, but the personnel is not entirely on him.

Bradford has the natural tools and when given some time, has the ability to make every throw. Biggest knock on him is just how quickly he checks down and his lack of mobility.

If I am Zygi..... I look at my roster and ask if it's a SB contending roster. IMO, not even close. Defensively, I think that we are good enough to win a SB, realistically another year though and they are special. I hope that we finally add a big fat strong DT. Joseph is a great talent, but remember the Williams wall? I would look for a big fella like fat Pat was.

Offensively though I think we suck. I think that we have a lot of really good pieces but their talents are not being utilized to the fullest. Problem starts and ends with the OL. Very little can be accomplished if we cannot either open up running lanes or pass block. You have to be able to do one or the other to win. Right now, they cannot do neither. The QB cannot feel comfortable allowing for the WR routes to develop. The RB have nowhere to run, the OC has no idea how to move the ball because these guys continue to get hurt and now our line looks like Legos...

So, again, the blame falls on the OL, but I think it's a bigger problem. I think the problem is Spielman. He obviously believes that athletes and play makers win games, but he does not value building the OL. He has missed often with his selection of OL in the draft and not even that good with FA. Until he believes that you win the LOS and you win the game.... We will continue to be disappointed as fans.
On a side note, ever thought that we're the team that always drafts the guy that falls ???? Floyd, Patterson, Bridgewater, Treadwell, Alexander, Clemmings.

I'm going to challenge you (and others) on this one.

Phil Loadholt -- not an All-Pro, but a solid tackle, especially in the running game. Spielman didn't cause his achilles to tear.
Matt Kalil -- considered to be easily the best O-lineman coming out of college when he was drafted, and made the Pro Bowl as a rookie. Spielman didn't cause him to suddenly go into suck mode, or to be constantly hurt, or to go on IR. And how many of us would KILL to have him at LT right now?
John Sullivan -- on the cusp of being an All-Pro until he hurt his back. Spielman didn't cause his back to go out, nor did he force Sullivan to lift weights before his back was ready.
Brandon Fusco -- among the top-rated guards on PFF a couple of years ago. Now he gets knocked on his a$$ every other play. Why has he descended into suckitude? I'm sure Spielman is as perplexed as anyone.
Joe Berger -- good enough to replace Sullivan, but now he's hurt.
Alex Boone -- after a slow start, he's been solid, but even he has missed time due to injury.
Andre Smith -- we can argue whether he was any good, but the fact remains that he was a high draft choice and gave us at least a chance of being average at RT -- until he got hurt and went on IR.
Mike Harris -- Widely regarded as one of our top O-linemen last year. Where is he now? He's like Jimmy Hoffa -- has disappeared without a trace. Rick's fault?

Has O-line been a priority in the early draft rounds for Spielman. No. But not every team builds a line that way. The Vikings have gone the "draft low and develop" route. As I've said many times, it may not be the way we think he ought to build an O-line, but it's what he's chosen to do, and there's precedent for it. He's far from the only GM to go this route. And we can sit here and go "Dallas Cowboys" all we want, but the Cowboys haven't won squat for years, and until they do, there's no reason to make their "draft the entire line in the first round" the model. Their defense is not terribly good, and I believe they will get exposed in the playoffs.

Here's the other truth ... we are 6-5, having played with a line that has had 10 or 11 different combinations due to injury. I honestly believe that if our opening day line had been able to stay together, we might very well be 8-3 or better right now. Continuity is everything with an O-line, and we've had none. I believe there has only been one instance this entire season where the same 5 guys were together for 2 games in a row -- we won the second of those two games against the Cardinals.

We all like to say, "Can't make injuries an excuse." That's a nice buzz phrase, but the truth is that talent wins in this league, and virtually every O-lineman close to having real talent is on the shelf. When you're trotting out Willie Beavers at RT and T.J. Clemmings at LT, it's a miracle this team even had a chance to win on the road.

Obviously something's got to be done for next season. But I doubt you'll ever see another year like this for injuries to one unit of a Vikings football team. It's been brutal.


Okay, let's see...
Loadholt, has been injured recently and at 6'8 340, players don't last very long. He had a productive career but signs of injury were apparent. Was actually surprised that they resigned him and that he thought he could come back and play.
Kalil has been regressing every year and never had another LT to compete. Knee surgeries had become an annual occurrence. Signs had pointed to a very short injury plagued career for quite some time now. Would I have drafted him when he came out, probably so. We had a need and he was prototype and seemingly ready to plug and play.
Sullivan also was returning from multiple injuries. True about the weightlifting, but that's like telling a fat guy to stop eating... Not going to happen! Back injuries ruin football careers, ALWAYS! A good friend of mine was a 2nd rd OL that had his career ended by back injuries much to soon. Once they start, they don't go away.
Fusco, surprising to me how poorly his play has been since his first couple of years. Just been very dissappointing his last few years... I had always thought that we had found a gem, but he gets manhandled now and has for a few years.
Berger, tough to count on a 34 year old to continually battle young bulls that are bigger and stronger than you. Remember, he had always been a career backup until Sullivan started getting hurt.
Boone I thought was a very good signing. He has just had so much inconsistency surrounding him. + for Ricky
Smith had been widely regarded as a bust prior to coming here. He's serviceable at best.
Harris ??? Know idea what the heck he's doing! I would never blame a GM on that unless they knew something prior, heck, I still don't even know what his deal is ?
Jake Long experiment was a desperation move and played out that way

I agree that Spielman cannot control injury, I also know that this OL has been decimmated like none I have ever seen before. The Vikings are doing exceptionally well considering the injuries they have had to overcome. There's a chance of even being 11-5. Albeit unlikely, but a chance. I really enjoy watching the team compete and have a real chance at winning every game. They're a few pieces away like I said. Those pieces are along the OL.
However, there were warning signs and Spielman hoped to survive this season. It didn't work. The fact that we have salary constraints is the GMs fault. In his position, he is to protect the shield, the Minnesota Vikings, more than he is the player. It's a tough job and you must have the right type of personality, and I think that he does that to a pretty good drum. However, not heading the warning signs and running oft injured OL out there is never a good idea. Could I have done a better job, probably not. I am in a similar position dealing with player personnel daily. You have to always develop the backups and you hope that they are ready to produce, not be completely overwhelmed.
Special OL are rare. However, not investing in them until 3rd rd picks and hoping to find hidden small school gems is never a good idea, IMO. Nearly 1/2 of the offensive players on the field on EVERY PLAY are OL !!!
Think about that for a minute.... 11 offensive players and always 5 OL on the field.
You gave me our best most prolific 7-8 OL and all of them, but Boone, had serious concerns coming into the season. You still had 80% of the most important unit to a teams success in limbo with health concerns, physical or mental. What happens next you hope doesn't, but the warning signs were there.



:appl:

Great exchange, both of you! Exhibit A of why I am thankful for this board!


Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:23 am
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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
randomghost11 wrote:
Maybe if the offense could put up more than 16 points in either game vs the Lions than the defense wouldn't be able to cough it up


Very true however if you have a truly "great" defense they don't; A) Cough up a 3 point lead with 23 seconds left in the game and the Lions on their own 25 with zero time outs and B) Cough up a 3 point lead with the Lions on their own 1 yard line.

Neither of the above happens to truly great defenses.


Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:23 am
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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
the biggest concern for me about the line, which i prefer to refer to as 4wheel chairs and a walker, is that in spite of all the draft picks and other UDFAs brought in to compete for jobs in the past few seasons, the only depth that stuck was Clemmings and Beavers. And Beavers was cut and brought back because of injuries.
-
The injuries, the FAs, coacing changes aside, that^^ to me is the biggest problem. I don't care who or what you wish to blame for T J Beavers....the fact is they haven't produced a decent OL through the draft since Fusco and his decencey is now questionable.
I can't recall if Harris was a draft pick....I think no.
-
A blind suirrel coulda/woulda picked Kalil, so I'm not really giving them any cred there when it comes to talent evaluation for this unit.
-
I understand, as allof us do!, that there have been other areas of need as well...it's just strange that in all those other areas they have come up with solid starters and/or depth through the draft but have only TJ n Willie to show for the line.
-
It will be interesting to see how this all gets addressed this offseason. Lots of salary cap yoga ahead.~


Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:53 am
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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
IIsweet wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
IIsweet wrote:
Having read all of your thoughts, there is much over reaction and undue hatred being thrown around.
I have always been overly critical of Spielman and if I am placing blame anywhere, it's him.
Bradford didn't draft or sign these OL and continue to pay for subpar performances.
Zimmer may have selected Norv, Shurmur, and the coaching staff, but the personnel is not entirely on him.

Bradford has the natural tools and when given some time, has the ability to make every throw. Biggest knock on him is just how quickly he checks down and his lack of mobility.

If I am Zygi..... I look at my roster and ask if it's a SB contending roster. IMO, not even close. Defensively, I think that we are good enough to win a SB, realistically another year though and they are special. I hope that we finally add a big fat strong DT. Joseph is a great talent, but remember the Williams wall? I would look for a big fella like fat Pat was.

Offensively though I think we suck. I think that we have a lot of really good pieces but their talents are not being utilized to the fullest. Problem starts and ends with the OL. Very little can be accomplished if we cannot either open up running lanes or pass block. You have to be able to do one or the other to win. Right now, they cannot do neither. The QB cannot feel comfortable allowing for the WR routes to develop. The RB have nowhere to run, the OC has no idea how to move the ball because these guys continue to get hurt and now our line looks like Legos...

So, again, the blame falls on the OL, but I think it's a bigger problem. I think the problem is Spielman. He obviously believes that athletes and play makers win games, but he does not value building the OL. He has missed often with his selection of OL in the draft and not even that good with FA. Until he believes that you win the LOS and you win the game.... We will continue to be disappointed as fans.
On a side note, ever thought that we're the team that always drafts the guy that falls ???? Floyd, Patterson, Bridgewater, Treadwell, Alexander, Clemmings.

I'm going to challenge you (and others) on this one.

Phil Loadholt -- not an All-Pro, but a solid tackle, especially in the running game. Spielman didn't cause his achilles to tear.
Matt Kalil -- considered to be easily the best O-lineman coming out of college when he was drafted, and made the Pro Bowl as a rookie. Spielman didn't cause him to suddenly go into suck mode, or to be constantly hurt, or to go on IR. And how many of us would KILL to have him at LT right now?
John Sullivan -- on the cusp of being an All-Pro until he hurt his back. Spielman didn't cause his back to go out, nor did he force Sullivan to lift weights before his back was ready.
Brandon Fusco -- among the top-rated guards on PFF a couple of years ago. Now he gets knocked on his a$$ every other play. Why has he descended into suckitude? I'm sure Spielman is as perplexed as anyone.
Joe Berger -- good enough to replace Sullivan, but now he's hurt.
Alex Boone -- after a slow start, he's been solid, but even he has missed time due to injury.
Andre Smith -- we can argue whether he was any good, but the fact remains that he was a high draft choice and gave us at least a chance of being average at RT -- until he got hurt and went on IR.
Mike Harris -- Widely regarded as one of our top O-linemen last year. Where is he now? He's like Jimmy Hoffa -- has disappeared without a trace. Rick's fault?

Has O-line been a priority in the early draft rounds for Spielman. No. But not every team builds a line that way. The Vikings have gone the "draft low and develop" route. As I've said many times, it may not be the way we think he ought to build an O-line, but it's what he's chosen to do, and there's precedent for it. He's far from the only GM to go this route. And we can sit here and go "Dallas Cowboys" all we want, but the Cowboys haven't won squat for years, and until they do, there's no reason to make their "draft the entire line in the first round" the model. Their defense is not terribly good, and I believe they will get exposed in the playoffs.

Here's the other truth ... we are 6-5, having played with a line that has had 10 or 11 different combinations due to injury. I honestly believe that if our opening day line had been able to stay together, we might very well be 8-3 or better right now. Continuity is everything with an O-line, and we've had none. I believe there has only been one instance this entire season where the same 5 guys were together for 2 games in a row -- we won the second of those two games against the Cardinals.

We all like to say, "Can't make injuries an excuse." That's a nice buzz phrase, but the truth is that talent wins in this league, and virtually every O-lineman close to having real talent is on the shelf. When you're trotting out Willie Beavers at RT and T.J. Clemmings at LT, it's a miracle this team even had a chance to win on the road.

Obviously something's got to be done for next season. But I doubt you'll ever see another year like this for injuries to one unit of a Vikings football team. It's been brutal.


Okay, let's see...
Loadholt, has been injured recently and at 6'8 340, players don't last very long. He had a productive career but signs of injury were apparent. Was actually surprised that they resigned him and that he thought he could come back and play.
Kalil has been regressing every year and never had another LT to compete. Knee surgeries had become an annual occurrence. Signs had pointed to a very short injury plagued career for quite some time now. Would I have drafted him when he came out, probably so. We had a need and he was prototype and seemingly ready to plug and play.
Sullivan also was returning from multiple injuries. True about the weightlifting, but that's like telling a fat guy to stop eating... Not going to happen! Back injuries ruin football careers, ALWAYS! A good friend of mine was a 2nd rd OL that had his career ended by back injuries much to soon. Once they start, they don't go away.
Fusco, surprising to me how poorly his play has been since his first couple of years. Just been very dissappointing his last few years... I had always thought that we had found a gem, but he gets manhandled now and has for a few years.
Berger, tough to count on a 34 year old to continually battle young bulls that are bigger and stronger than you. Remember, he had always been a career backup until Sullivan started getting hurt.
Boone I thought was a very good signing. He has just had so much inconsistency surrounding him. + for Ricky
Smith had been widely regarded as a bust prior to coming here. He's serviceable at best.
Harris ??? Know idea what the heck he's doing! I would never blame a GM on that unless they knew something prior, heck, I still don't even know what his deal is ?
Jake Long experiment was a desperation move and played out that way

I agree that Spielman cannot control injury, I also know that this OL has been decimmated like none I have ever seen before. The Vikings are doing exceptionally well considering the injuries they have had to overcome. There's a chance of even being 11-5. Albeit unlikely, but a chance. I really enjoy watching the team compete and have a real chance at winning every game. They're a few pieces away like I said. Those pieces are along the OL.
However, there were warning signs and Spielman hoped to survive this season. It didn't work. The fact that we have salary constraints is the GMs fault. In his position, he is to protect the shield, the Minnesota Vikings, more than he is the player. It's a tough job and you must have the right type of personality, and I think that he does that to a pretty good drum. However, not heading the warning signs and running oft injured OL out there is never a good idea. Could I have done a better job, probably not. I am in a similar position dealing with player personnel daily. You have to always develop the backups and you hope that they are ready to produce, not be completely overwhelmed.
Special OL are rare. However, not investing in them until 3rd rd picks and hoping to find hidden small school gems is never a good idea, IMO. Nearly 1/2 of the offensive players on the field on EVERY PLAY are OL !!!
Think about that for a minute.... 11 offensive players and always 5 OL on the field.
You gave me our best most prolific 7-8 OL and all of them, but Boone, had serious concerns coming into the season. You still had 80% of the most important unit to a teams success in limbo with health concerns, physical or mental. What happens next you hope doesn't, but the warning signs were there.

Yes, I did. But you're talking about this year. Even Dallas didn't build its O-line in a year. i'm talking about building an O-line over time. You say the line is 5 of 11 players on offense. That's absolutely true, but DBs are 4 of 11 on defense, and arguably just as important as the O-line in the pass-happy NFL. D-linemen are the first line of defense against the pass, and in our system, that's also 4 of 11.

The point I'm making is that it's all dependent on how you believe a football team should be built. When you're talking draft picks and salary cap, you have limited resources. So the question becomes, "where do you allocate those scarce resources?" Spielman's choice, for the most part has been to draft linemen lower and develop them. Most of what an O-lineman does is based on strength and technique, both of which can be developed or taught. You can't take an average athlete at WR and make him into Dez Bryant, but you can take an average athlete at guard and make him serviceable. You don't have to agree with that idea -- and I'm not even sure I would do it that way if I were GM -- but the facts show that it's how many teams in the NFL approach the O-line. For example, New England has taken TWO offensive linemen earlier than Round 4 in the past 10 years. Seattle has drafted THREE. The Vikings have drafted two. So you can't tell me that it's not a viable way to do things.

It simply hasn't worked out for the Vikings. Why? No idea. Coaching? Bad scouting on the linemen they DO draft? Luck? Injuries? Probably all of the above.

You talk about Kalil "regressing for years." But the fact is that the Vikings invested a No. 4 pick for him, and he started his career looking like the second coming of Anthony Munoz. So while it's fair to criticize Spielman and company for believing he'd be a good tackle THIS YEAR, it's not fair to say they didn't invest in the left tackle position, and it's not fair to say they scouted poorly or drafted a bust -- he was dominant as a rookie, a Pro-Bowler.

And in all fairness, this team is legitimately two gut-punch losses to the stupid Lions from being 8-3. From where I sit, that's pretty amazing, considering all the injuries. Again, it's about continuity along the O-line. Because of the injuries, we've had none. Would we be likely to make a deep playoff run with a rag-tag line? No, that would be very unlikely. But I think credit needs to be given where it's due. This team has held it together fairly well.

Good discussion.

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Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:31 am
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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !


Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:37 am
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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
IIsweet wrote:
On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !


:appl:


Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:43 am
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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
IIsweet wrote:
On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !


I agree. But right now the Vikings are using their QB as a game manager and not a playmaker. If they draft another guy to be a game manager, I think the results will be the same. The overall offensive philosophy has to change, in my view.

Now that would definitely be proactive and not simply reactive.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
IIsweet wrote:
On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !

Drafting a QB (at least one who has a chance of actually playing next year) seems unlikely.

SB and TB are both under contract for next season. My guess is that the Vikings will view the QB position as set. Also, with at least 6 wins, the top guys aren't likely to be available (although you never know -- Derek Carr went later than Bridgewater -- ugh!).

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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
By the way, really good discussions happening on here today. It's nice to see that we can disagree like gentlemen. Lots of great points being made on all sides of every argument. Everybody wants the same thing ... we just have different views on how to get there.

Sometimes I wish we all could sit down face-to-face and have a great talk about our team over wings and beers.

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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
halfgiz wrote:
randomghost11 wrote:
Maybe if the offense could put up more than 16 points in either game vs the Lions than the defense wouldn't be able to cough it up

We had the lead what does it matter how many points you put up? Yeah it would be nice putting 40 points a game up but the offense is missing to many pieces.
Last game Lions drove 99 yards on the defense and we couldn't stop them.

So it's a team effort the offense has to many injuries and the defense is under performing.


Yeah, we had the lead 20-14 at half time against Washington, but you normally can't expect the defense to shut out the other team for a whole half. If we could put up 20 points the first half we should be able to score something the second half. I don't believe you can put all the blame on the defense for the Washington game. Yes, I know this is picky, but Detroit didn't drive 99 yards. It was officially 68 yards before they kicked the tying field goal, but I do understand your point.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
IIsweet wrote:
On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !


To be honest I would like to see what Heinicke could do in a real game situation. He's mobile has a decent arm and Norv said the players respone to him. Just no game experience.

I agree about drafting a QB to develop.

Nice discussion going on :thumbsup:


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
By the way, really good discussions happening on here today. It's nice to see that we can disagree like gentlemen. Lots of great points being made on all sides of every argument. Everybody wants the same thing ... we just have different views on how to get there.

Sometimes I wish we all could sit down face-to-face and have a great talk about our team over wings and beers.


I think it would be a lot more relaxed and a lot more fun. :) It has been a great day on the board so far!


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Purple Reign wrote:

Yeah, we had the lead 20-14 at half time against Washington, but you normally can't expect the defense to shut out the other team for a whole half. If we could put up 20 points the first half we should be able to score something the second half. I don't believe you can put all the blame on the defense for the Washington game. Yes, I know this is picky, but Detroit didn't drive 99 yards. It was officially 68 yards before they kicked the tying field goal, but I do understand your point.


Yep offense laid an egg the 2nd half of that game.
You got some time check out the drives...interesting.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/b ... 130was.htm

I'll smoke the wings :rock:


Last edited by halfgiz on Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
By the way, really good discussions happening on here today. It's nice to see that we can disagree like gentlemen. Lots of great points being made on all sides of every argument. Everybody wants the same thing ... we just have different views on how to get there.

Sometimes I wish we all could sit down face-to-face and have a great talk about our team over wings and beers.


Ponder sucks!


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
VikingPaul73 wrote:
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
By the way, really good discussions happening on here today. It's nice to see that we can disagree like gentlemen. Lots of great points being made on all sides of every argument. Everybody wants the same thing ... we just have different views on how to get there.

Sometimes I wish we all could sit down face-to-face and have a great talk about our team over wings and beers.


Ponder sucks!

Gah! You beat me to it!

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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Sorry to have left fellas, Christmas decorating, cleaning of garage, mowing and edging the yard, and getting yard watered before the light show tomorrow.
Anyways, a get together would be a great time. i am wanting to go to the combine. One of my bucket list of things to do, but I wish I could do it annually.

Also, Heinecke ?? Has he ever pushed anyone though ? How good is he really ? He's a great QB with the 3rd stringers and practice squad. Would you feel that we had a chance at getting to the playoffs with him at the helm ?


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Purple Reign wrote:
Iron Lion wrote:
While I agree with what you're saying, Bradford did lead a game-winning touchdown drive against the Lions in week 9.


Did I miss something? I thought Detroit won that game. :lol:


Of course, I'm just saying that it doesn't take away from what Bradford did. He had a deficit in the 4th quarter and put the team in a position to win... in a position where they had greater than a 99.9% chance of victory. I'm not a Bradford supporter by any stretch, but I calls 'em likes I sees 'em and Bradford put together a game-winning touchdown drive.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Iron Lion wrote:
Purple Reign wrote:
Iron Lion wrote:
While I agree with what you're saying, Bradford did lead a game-winning touchdown drive against the Lions in week 9.


Did I miss something? I thought Detroit won that game. :lol:


Of course, I'm just saying that it doesn't take away from what Bradford did. He had a deficit in the 4th quarter and put the team in a position to win... in a position where they had greater than a 99.9% chance of victory. I'm not a Bradford supporter by any stretch, but I calls 'em likes I sees 'em and Bradford put together a game-winning touchdown drive.


Are you saying that any drive that takes the lead is a 'game-winning' drive? They are 'lead-changing' drives, but there can only be 1 'game-winning' drive per game, plus the team has to actually win the game before you can call it a game-winning drive. :whistle:


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Purple Reign wrote:

Are you saying that any drive that takes the lead is a 'game-winning' drive? They are 'lead-changing' drives, but there can only be 1 'game-winning' drive per game, plus the team has to actually win the game before you can call it a game-winning drive. :whistle:


As stats go, Bradford did not have a game-winning touchdown drive. If you want to take things away from your QB, don't let me stop you.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Iron Lion wrote:
Purple Reign wrote:

Are you saying that any drive that takes the lead is a 'game-winning' drive? They are 'lead-changing' drives, but there can only be 1 'game-winning' drive per game, plus the team has to actually win the game before you can call it a game-winning drive. :whistle:


As stats go, Bradford did not have a game-winning touchdown drive. If you want to take things away from your QB, don't let me stop you.


What am I taking away from Bradford? He wasn't credited with a game-winning drive so how can it be taken away from him? Your logic doesn't make any sense.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Purple Reign wrote:
Iron Lion wrote:
Purple Reign wrote:

Are you saying that any drive that takes the lead is a 'game-winning' drive? They are 'lead-changing' drives, but there can only be 1 'game-winning' drive per game, plus the team has to actually win the game before you can call it a game-winning drive. :whistle:


As stats go, Bradford did not have a game-winning touchdown drive. If you want to take things away from your QB, don't let me stop you.


What am I taking away from Bradford? He wasn't credited with a game-winning drive so how can it be taken away from him? Your logic doesn't make any sense.


I understand what he's saying.

Upthread, you wrote: "I just feel like he is not the type of quarterback to lead a team back to win a game. At least teddy had that over bradford, example is the wild card playoff game (thanks walsh). Bradford is not clutch."

Iron Lion's point is Bradford demonstrated the capability you're saying he lacks at the end of regulation in the first game against the Lions. He led the Vikings to what would have been a game-winning score. It just didn't end up actually being a game-winning score because the Vikings defense collapsed in the final 23 seconds and allowed the Lions to drive for a FG and force OT. The Lions won the game but Bradford demonstrated he is capable of being clutch and leading the team on the kind of drive it takes to win a game late.

Your own example illustrates the same point using a similar situation. Bridgewater led the Vikes on what should have been a game-winning drive at the end of last year's wildcard game. Unfortunately, Walsh missed the kick.

Put simply: Walsh's missed kick = the Vikings defensive collapse against Detroit. Both QBs led the team on late drives that should have clinched wins. Both games were lost anyway.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
IIsweet wrote:
On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !


Nah...It's time to overcompensate and draft nothing but offensive lineman. Teddy will be back to push Sam, after all. :P


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Iron Lion wrote:
Purple Reign wrote:

Are you saying that any drive that takes the lead is a 'game-winning' drive? They are 'lead-changing' drives, but there can only be 1 'game-winning' drive per game, plus the team has to actually win the game before you can call it a game-winning drive. :whistle:


As stats go, Bradford did not have a game-winning touchdown drive. If you want to take things away from your QB, don't let me stop you.


Game WINNING drive? No.

But he did EVERYTHING he could have to win that first game. Lead a long TD drive to take the lead only to have his defense cough it it in regulation then lose it in OT, without Bradford ever touching the ball again.

If YOU want to hold that against the QB I can't help you.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Mothman wrote:
I understand what he's saying.

Upthread, you wrote: "I just feel like he is not the type of quarterback to lead a team back to win a game. At least teddy had that over bradford, example is the wild card playoff game (thanks walsh). Bradford is not clutch."

Iron Lion's point is Bradford demonstrated the capability you're saying he lacks at the end of regulation in the first game against the Lions. He led the Vikings to what would have been a game-winning score. It just didn't end up actually being a game-winning score because the Vikings defense collapsed in the final 23 seconds and allowed the Lions to drive for a FG and force OT. The Lions won the game but Bradford demonstrated he is capable of being clutch and leading the team on the kind of drive it takes to win a game late.

Your own example illustrates the same point using a similar situation. Bridgewater led the Vikes on what should have been a game-winning drive at the end of last year's wildcard game. Unfortunately, Walsh missed the kick.

Put simply: Walsh's missed kick = the Vikings defensive collapse against Detroit. Both QBs led the team on late drives that should have clinched wins. Both games were lost anyway.


Sorry Jim, but I didn't say any of those things - you must have me confused with someone else (PurpleMustReign maybe?). The only thing I responded to was the 'game-winning drive' statement, pointing out that it really isn't a 'game-winning drive'. I've never said anything negative about Bradford. I wouldn't have said anything if he had said potential game-winning drive, but he didn't say that and that is the only thing I was referring to.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Purple Reign wrote:
Sorry Jim, but I didn't say any of those things - you must have me confused with someone else (PurpleMustReign maybe?).


You're right, I'm very sorry. I was thinking you wrote that but it was someone else.

Nevertheless, the explanation is the same. You're talking about the fact that it wasn't literally a game-winning drive and Iron Lion is saying that drive illustrates Bradford's capability of leading a clutch, game-winning drive.


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
Mothman wrote:
Purple Reign wrote:
Sorry Jim, but I didn't say any of those things - you must have me confused with someone else (PurpleMustReign maybe?).


You;re right, I'm very sorry. I was thinking you wrote that but it was someone else.

Nevertheless, the explanation is the same. You're talking about the fact that it wasn't literally a game-winning drive and Iron Lion is saying that drive illustrates Bradford's capability of leading a clutch, game-winning drive.


Yes, that is what I was saying - it wasn't literally a game-winning drive and that is the only point I was making. I understood what Iron Lion was trying to say - just pointing out his terminology was incorrect. Plus the fact that my first post referring to it was in jest (game-winning - I thought Detroit won the game? :D) but somehow it turned into I was slamming Bradford. :?:


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Post Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi
IIsweet wrote:
On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !


So 2 Quarterbacks and 5 offensive linemen next draft?


Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:55 am
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