Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgiving

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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by halfgiz » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:33 am

randomghost11 wrote:Maybe if the offense could put up more than 16 points in either game vs the Lions than the defense wouldn't be able to cough it up
We had the lead what does it matter how many points you put up? Yeah it would be nice putting 40 points a game up but the offense is missing to many pieces.
Last game Lions drove 99 yards on the defense and we couldn't stop them.

So it's a team effort the offense has to many injuries and the defense is under performing.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Mothman » Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:12 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:Has O-line been a priority in the early draft rounds for Spielman. No. But not every team builds a line that way. The Vikings have gone the "draft low and develop" route. As I've said many times, it may not be the way we think he ought to build an O-line, but it's what he's chosen to do, and there's precedent for it. He's far from the only GM to go this route.
True, he's far from the only GM to go that route but explaining Spielman's fundamental strategy and noting that other teams have used it doesn't excuse his failure in this area and it's the failure that's the problem.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by IIsweet » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:08 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: I'm going to challenge you (and others) on this one.

Phil Loadholt -- not an All-Pro, but a solid tackle, especially in the running game. Spielman didn't cause his achilles to tear.
Matt Kalil -- considered to be easily the best O-lineman coming out of college when he was drafted, and made the Pro Bowl as a rookie. Spielman didn't cause him to suddenly go into suck mode, or to be constantly hurt, or to go on IR. And how many of us would KILL to have him at LT right now?
John Sullivan -- on the cusp of being an All-Pro until he hurt his back. Spielman didn't cause his back to go out, nor did he force Sullivan to lift weights before his back was ready.
Brandon Fusco -- among the top-rated guards on PFF a couple of years ago. Now he gets knocked on his a$$ every other play. Why has he descended into suckitude? I'm sure Spielman is as perplexed as anyone.
Joe Berger -- good enough to replace Sullivan, but now he's hurt.
Alex Boone -- after a slow start, he's been solid, but even he has missed time due to injury.
Andre Smith -- we can argue whether he was any good, but the fact remains that he was a high draft choice and gave us at least a chance of being average at RT -- until he got hurt and went on IR.
Mike Harris -- Widely regarded as one of our top O-linemen last year. Where is he now? He's like Jimmy Hoffa -- has disappeared without a trace. Rick's fault?

Has O-line been a priority in the early draft rounds for Spielman. No. But not every team builds a line that way. The Vikings have gone the "draft low and develop" route. As I've said many times, it may not be the way we think he ought to build an O-line, but it's what he's chosen to do, and there's precedent for it. He's far from the only GM to go this route. And we can sit here and go "Dallas Cowboys" all we want, but the Cowboys haven't won squat for years, and until they do, there's no reason to make their "draft the entire line in the first round" the model. Their defense is not terribly good, and I believe they will get exposed in the playoffs.

Here's the other truth ... we are 6-5, having played with a line that has had 10 or 11 different combinations due to injury. I honestly believe that if our opening day line had been able to stay together, we might very well be 8-3 or better right now. Continuity is everything with an O-line, and we've had none. I believe there has only been one instance this entire season where the same 5 guys were together for 2 games in a row -- we won the second of those two games against the Cardinals.

We all like to say, "Can't make injuries an excuse." That's a nice buzz phrase, but the truth is that talent wins in this league, and virtually every O-lineman close to having real talent is on the shelf. When you're trotting out Willie Beavers at RT and T.J. Clemmings at LT, it's a miracle this team even had a chance to win on the road.

Obviously something's got to be done for next season. But I doubt you'll ever see another year like this for injuries to one unit of a Vikings football team. It's been brutal.
Okay, let's see...
Loadholt, has been injured recently and at 6'8 340, players don't last very long. He had a productive career but signs of injury were apparent. Was actually surprised that they resigned him and that he thought he could come back and play.
Kalil has been regressing every year and never had another LT to compete. Knee surgeries had become an annual occurrence. Signs had pointed to a very short injury plagued career for quite some time now. Would I have drafted him when he came out, probably so. We had a need and he was prototype and seemingly ready to plug and play.
Sullivan also was returning from multiple injuries. True about the weightlifting, but that's like telling a fat guy to stop eating... Not going to happen! Back injuries ruin football careers, ALWAYS! A good friend of mine was a 2nd rd OL that had his career ended by back injuries much to soon. Once they start, they don't go away.
Fusco, surprising to me how poorly his play has been since his first couple of years. Just been very dissappointing his last few years... I had always thought that we had found a gem, but he gets manhandled now and has for a few years.
Berger, tough to count on a 34 year old to continually battle young bulls that are bigger and stronger than you. Remember, he had always been a career backup until Sullivan started getting hurt.
Boone I thought was a very good signing. He has just had so much inconsistency surrounding him. + for Ricky
Smith had been widely regarded as a bust prior to coming here. He's serviceable at best.
Harris ??? Know idea what the heck he's doing! I would never blame a GM on that unless they knew something prior, heck, I still don't even know what his deal is ?
Jake Long experiment was a desperation move and played out that way

I agree that Spielman cannot control injury, I also know that this OL has been decimmated like none I have ever seen before. The Vikings are doing exceptionally well considering the injuries they have had to overcome. There's a chance of even being 11-5. Albeit unlikely, but a chance. I really enjoy watching the team compete and have a real chance at winning every game. They're a few pieces away like I said. Those pieces are along the OL.
However, there were warning signs and Spielman hoped to survive this season. It didn't work. The fact that we have salary constraints is the GMs fault. In his position, he is to protect the shield, the Minnesota Vikings, more than he is the player. It's a tough job and you must have the right type of personality, and I think that he does that to a pretty good drum. However, not heading the warning signs and running oft injured OL out there is never a good idea. Could I have done a better job, probably not. I am in a similar position dealing with player personnel daily. You have to always develop the backups and you hope that they are ready to produce, not be completely overwhelmed.
Special OL are rare. However, not investing in them until 3rd rd picks and hoping to find hidden small school gems is never a good idea, IMO. Nearly 1/2 of the offensive players on the field on EVERY PLAY are OL !!!
Think about that for a minute.... 11 offensive players and always 5 OL on the field.
You gave me our best most prolific 7-8 OL and all of them, but Boone, had serious concerns coming into the season. You still had 80% of the most important unit to a teams success in limbo with health concerns, physical or mental. What happens next you hope doesn't, but the warning signs were there.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Texas Vike » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:23 am

IIsweet wrote: Okay, let's see...
Loadholt, has been injured recently and at 6'8 340, players don't last very long. He had a productive career but signs of injury were apparent. Was actually surprised that they resigned him and that he thought he could come back and play.
Kalil has been regressing every year and never had another LT to compete. Knee surgeries had become an annual occurrence. Signs had pointed to a very short injury plagued career for quite some time now. Would I have drafted him when he came out, probably so. We had a need and he was prototype and seemingly ready to plug and play.
Sullivan also was returning from multiple injuries. True about the weightlifting, but that's like telling a fat guy to stop eating... Not going to happen! Back injuries ruin football careers, ALWAYS! A good friend of mine was a 2nd rd OL that had his career ended by back injuries much to soon. Once they start, they don't go away.
Fusco, surprising to me how poorly his play has been since his first couple of years. Just been very dissappointing his last few years... I had always thought that we had found a gem, but he gets manhandled now and has for a few years.
Berger, tough to count on a 34 year old to continually battle young bulls that are bigger and stronger than you. Remember, he had always been a career backup until Sullivan started getting hurt.
Boone I thought was a very good signing. He has just had so much inconsistency surrounding him. + for Ricky
Smith had been widely regarded as a bust prior to coming here. He's serviceable at best.
Harris ??? Know idea what the heck he's doing! I would never blame a GM on that unless they knew something prior, heck, I still don't even know what his deal is ?
Jake Long experiment was a desperation move and played out that way

I agree that Spielman cannot control injury, I also know that this OL has been decimmated like none I have ever seen before. The Vikings are doing exceptionally well considering the injuries they have had to overcome. There's a chance of even being 11-5. Albeit unlikely, but a chance. I really enjoy watching the team compete and have a real chance at winning every game. They're a few pieces away like I said. Those pieces are along the OL.
However, there were warning signs and Spielman hoped to survive this season. It didn't work. The fact that we have salary constraints is the GMs fault. In his position, he is to protect the shield, the Minnesota Vikings, more than he is the player. It's a tough job and you must have the right type of personality, and I think that he does that to a pretty good drum. However, not heading the warning signs and running oft injured OL out there is never a good idea. Could I have done a better job, probably not. I am in a similar position dealing with player personnel daily. You have to always develop the backups and you hope that they are ready to produce, not be completely overwhelmed.
Special OL are rare. However, not investing in them until 3rd rd picks and hoping to find hidden small school gems is never a good idea, IMO. Nearly 1/2 of the offensive players on the field on EVERY PLAY are OL !!!
Think about that for a minute.... 11 offensive players and always 5 OL on the field.
You gave me our best most prolific 7-8 OL and all of them, but Boone, had serious concerns coming into the season. You still had 80% of the most important unit to a teams success in limbo with health concerns, physical or mental. What happens next you hope doesn't, but the warning signs were there.

:appl:

Great exchange, both of you! Exhibit A of why I am thankful for this board!
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by RFIP » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:23 am

randomghost11 wrote:Maybe if the offense could put up more than 16 points in either game vs the Lions than the defense wouldn't be able to cough it up
Very true however if you have a truly "great" defense they don't; A) Cough up a 3 point lead with 23 seconds left in the game and the Lions on their own 25 with zero time outs and B) Cough up a 3 point lead with the Lions on their own 1 yard line.

Neither of the above happens to truly great defenses.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Nunin » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:53 am

the biggest concern for me about the line, which i prefer to refer to as 4wheel chairs and a walker, is that in spite of all the draft picks and other UDFAs brought in to compete for jobs in the past few seasons, the only depth that stuck was Clemmings and Beavers. And Beavers was cut and brought back because of injuries.
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The injuries, the FAs, coacing changes aside, that^^ to me is the biggest problem. I don't care who or what you wish to blame for T J Beavers....the fact is they haven't produced a decent OL through the draft since Fusco and his decencey is now questionable.
I can't recall if Harris was a draft pick....I think no.
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A blind suirrel coulda/woulda picked Kalil, so I'm not really giving them any cred there when it comes to talent evaluation for this unit.
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I understand, as allof us do!, that there have been other areas of need as well...it's just strange that in all those other areas they have come up with solid starters and/or depth through the draft but have only TJ n Willie to show for the line.
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It will be interesting to see how this all gets addressed this offseason. Lots of salary cap yoga ahead.~
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:31 am

IIsweet wrote: Okay, let's see...
Loadholt, has been injured recently and at 6'8 340, players don't last very long. He had a productive career but signs of injury were apparent. Was actually surprised that they resigned him and that he thought he could come back and play.
Kalil has been regressing every year and never had another LT to compete. Knee surgeries had become an annual occurrence. Signs had pointed to a very short injury plagued career for quite some time now. Would I have drafted him when he came out, probably so. We had a need and he was prototype and seemingly ready to plug and play.
Sullivan also was returning from multiple injuries. True about the weightlifting, but that's like telling a fat guy to stop eating... Not going to happen! Back injuries ruin football careers, ALWAYS! A good friend of mine was a 2nd rd OL that had his career ended by back injuries much to soon. Once they start, they don't go away.
Fusco, surprising to me how poorly his play has been since his first couple of years. Just been very dissappointing his last few years... I had always thought that we had found a gem, but he gets manhandled now and has for a few years.
Berger, tough to count on a 34 year old to continually battle young bulls that are bigger and stronger than you. Remember, he had always been a career backup until Sullivan started getting hurt.
Boone I thought was a very good signing. He has just had so much inconsistency surrounding him. + for Ricky
Smith had been widely regarded as a bust prior to coming here. He's serviceable at best.
Harris ??? Know idea what the heck he's doing! I would never blame a GM on that unless they knew something prior, heck, I still don't even know what his deal is ?
Jake Long experiment was a desperation move and played out that way

I agree that Spielman cannot control injury, I also know that this OL has been decimmated like none I have ever seen before. The Vikings are doing exceptionally well considering the injuries they have had to overcome. There's a chance of even being 11-5. Albeit unlikely, but a chance. I really enjoy watching the team compete and have a real chance at winning every game. They're a few pieces away like I said. Those pieces are along the OL.
However, there were warning signs and Spielman hoped to survive this season. It didn't work. The fact that we have salary constraints is the GMs fault. In his position, he is to protect the shield, the Minnesota Vikings, more than he is the player. It's a tough job and you must have the right type of personality, and I think that he does that to a pretty good drum. However, not heading the warning signs and running oft injured OL out there is never a good idea. Could I have done a better job, probably not. I am in a similar position dealing with player personnel daily. You have to always develop the backups and you hope that they are ready to produce, not be completely overwhelmed.
Special OL are rare. However, not investing in them until 3rd rd picks and hoping to find hidden small school gems is never a good idea, IMO. Nearly 1/2 of the offensive players on the field on EVERY PLAY are OL !!!
Think about that for a minute.... 11 offensive players and always 5 OL on the field.
You gave me our best most prolific 7-8 OL and all of them, but Boone, had serious concerns coming into the season. You still had 80% of the most important unit to a teams success in limbo with health concerns, physical or mental. What happens next you hope doesn't, but the warning signs were there.
Yes, I did. But you're talking about this year. Even Dallas didn't build its O-line in a year. i'm talking about building an O-line over time. You say the line is 5 of 11 players on offense. That's absolutely true, but DBs are 4 of 11 on defense, and arguably just as important as the O-line in the pass-happy NFL. D-linemen are the first line of defense against the pass, and in our system, that's also 4 of 11.

The point I'm making is that it's all dependent on how you believe a football team should be built. When you're talking draft picks and salary cap, you have limited resources. So the question becomes, "where do you allocate those scarce resources?" Spielman's choice, for the most part has been to draft linemen lower and develop them. Most of what an O-lineman does is based on strength and technique, both of which can be developed or taught. You can't take an average athlete at WR and make him into Dez Bryant, but you can take an average athlete at guard and make him serviceable. You don't have to agree with that idea -- and I'm not even sure I would do it that way if I were GM -- but the facts show that it's how many teams in the NFL approach the O-line. For example, New England has taken TWO offensive linemen earlier than Round 4 in the past 10 years. Seattle has drafted THREE. The Vikings have drafted two. So you can't tell me that it's not a viable way to do things.

It simply hasn't worked out for the Vikings. Why? No idea. Coaching? Bad scouting on the linemen they DO draft? Luck? Injuries? Probably all of the above.

You talk about Kalil "regressing for years." But the fact is that the Vikings invested a No. 4 pick for him, and he started his career looking like the second coming of Anthony Munoz. So while it's fair to criticize Spielman and company for believing he'd be a good tackle THIS YEAR, it's not fair to say they didn't invest in the left tackle position, and it's not fair to say they scouted poorly or drafted a bust -- he was dominant as a rookie, a Pro-Bowler.

And in all fairness, this team is legitimately two gut-punch losses to the stupid Lions from being 8-3. From where I sit, that's pretty amazing, considering all the injuries. Again, it's about continuity along the O-line. Because of the injuries, we've had none. Would we be likely to make a deep playoff run with a rag-tag line? No, that would be very unlikely. But I think credit needs to be given where it's due. This team has held it together fairly well.

Good discussion.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by IIsweet » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:37 am

On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Mothman » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:43 am

IIsweet wrote:On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !
:appl:
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by losperros » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:05 am

IIsweet wrote:On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !
I agree. But right now the Vikings are using their QB as a game manager and not a playmaker. If they draft another guy to be a game manager, I think the results will be the same. The overall offensive philosophy has to change, in my view.

Now that would definitely be proactive and not simply reactive.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:24 am

IIsweet wrote:On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !
Drafting a QB (at least one who has a chance of actually playing next year) seems unlikely.

SB and TB are both under contract for next season. My guess is that the Vikings will view the QB position as set. Also, with at least 6 wins, the top guys aren't likely to be available (although you never know -- Derek Carr went later than Bridgewater -- ugh!).
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:30 am

By the way, really good discussions happening on here today. It's nice to see that we can disagree like gentlemen. Lots of great points being made on all sides of every argument. Everybody wants the same thing ... we just have different views on how to get there.

Sometimes I wish we all could sit down face-to-face and have a great talk about our team over wings and beers.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Purple Reign » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:52 am

halfgiz wrote: We had the lead what does it matter how many points you put up? Yeah it would be nice putting 40 points a game up but the offense is missing to many pieces.
Last game Lions drove 99 yards on the defense and we couldn't stop them.

So it's a team effort the offense has to many injuries and the defense is under performing.
Yeah, we had the lead 20-14 at half time against Washington, but you normally can't expect the defense to shut out the other team for a whole half. If we could put up 20 points the first half we should be able to score something the second half. I don't believe you can put all the blame on the defense for the Washington game. Yes, I know this is picky, but Detroit didn't drive 99 yards. It was officially 68 yards before they kicked the tying field goal, but I do understand your point.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by halfgiz » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:54 am

IIsweet wrote:On another note, can we please also draft a QB that will push the starter and provide quality depth ???
Let's be proactive as opposed to reactive !
To be honest I would like to see what Heinicke could do in a real game situation. He's mobile has a decent arm and Norv said the players respone to him. Just no game experience.

I agree about drafting a QB to develop.

Nice discussion going on :thumbsup:
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Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Mothman » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:57 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:By the way, really good discussions happening on here today. It's nice to see that we can disagree like gentlemen. Lots of great points being made on all sides of every argument. Everybody wants the same thing ... we just have different views on how to get there.

Sometimes I wish we all could sit down face-to-face and have a great talk about our team over wings and beers.
I think it would be a lot more relaxed and a lot more fun. :) It has been a great day on the board so far!
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