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 OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL 
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Mothman wrote:

... and that's why it really is time for a change.

I'm starting to hedge in that direction. :?


Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:10 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Nunin wrote:
Mothman wrote:

... and that's why it really is time for a change.

I'm starting to hedge in that direction. :?


Be careful. It snowballs on you. :)


Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:23 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Mothman wrote:

Be careful. It snowballs on you. :)


:lol:

indeed


Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:26 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
I'm interested in how Easton and Sirles do for the rest of the season. Sirles has made some mistakes but has been getting some decent grades. Easton hasn't done bad filling in for Berger and has also got a decent grade.
Rather these 2 are backups or starters remains to be seen.


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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
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You're essentially saying "It's hard and they might fail so they shouldn't try".

Honestly, that's not a compelling argument and I say that because fear of failure is a particularly weak reason for sticking with an approach that has continually failed to produce a team that advances and succeeds in the postseason. If they cling to Spielman, to what are they clinging? Lopsided rosters? Lack of postseason success? A decade of sub-par passing in a league where the rules favor the passing game? In the past decade, the Vikings have only been able to field a passing game ranked higher than #23 once. However, counting this year, they've been ranked 28th or lower in passing 5 times. That begs the question: does Spielman even know how to build a quality NFL passing game? It sure doesn't seem like it.



This is not what I'm saying. I'm speaking risk / reward. I feel that the risk of taking a step backwards is much greater than I'm comfortable with. Rick has done a great job of building a championship defense. One might argue that the only other team in the league having a similar level of success on that side of the ball is Seattle. So if we can him because of the offensive woes, then what guarantee is there we'll continue to enjoy the success we've had in finding defensive talent at all levels of the draft?

Also, I reject your premise on the question of Spielman buidling an NFL quality passing game. He is one part of that process, but not the only part. His job is to find/acquire talent. The coaches are then supposed to take the talent, develop it, and put it in a position to succeed. Your argument is placing the blame for the entire Frasier and Childress eras of offensive ineptitude squarely on his shoulders. 2006-2010 he didn't have full authority, so that isn't really fair. It is well known that Jackson was Childress's guy. After 2011, it is fair to assign blame to him, and that was the Ponder era. However, are you really going to advocate canning him on getting a QB pick wrong. If that was the criteria 2/3 of the NFL GMs would be constantly unemployed. Who are they going to replace him with that will suddenly hit the ball out of the park on QB picks? There is a lot of info out there that points to that particular position being about luck as much as anything else...

I agree on QB and OL being a total mess and WR taking probably too long to reach the point they are at today. However, I believe a lot of this is on coaching. I'm not sure if Spielman is the person solely responsible for coordinator hires, I think the last two head coaches have had that say if I am not mistaken? One might argue based on that this Rick's only full coaching hire, Zimmer, shows he can get that right.

This also points to where I think the finger of blame should be directed. Zimmer has been great in finding defensive assistants and retaining Priefer was also a strong move. On the Offensive side of the ball the people they've brought in have been bad. It was a mistake to give Turner full control of the offense without any input from Zimmer and now they are faced with cleaning up the mess. It looks to have potentially cost them a SB window season. I only hope they have enough time to fix it.

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Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:05 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
mansquatch wrote:
This is not what I'm saying. I'm speaking risk / reward.


Isn't that just another way of saying the risk of failure is too great so they shouldn't try to make a change for the better?

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I feel that the risk of taking a step backwards is much greater than I'm comfortable with. Rick has done a great job of building a championship defense. One might argue that the only other team in the league having a similar level of success on that side of the ball is Seattle. So if we can him because of the offensive woes, then what guarantee is there we'll continue to enjoy the success we've had in finding defensive talent at all levels of the draft?


None. There are no guarantees but again, just what are they risking? They have one playoff win in 10 years. That's a track record the team should cling to as if it's too precious to risk?

Quote:
Also, I reject your premise on the question of Spielman buidling an NFL quality passing game. He is one part of that process, but not the only part. His job is to find/acquire talent. The coaches are then supposed to take the talent, develop it, and put it in a position to succeed. Your argument is placing the blame for the entire Frasier and Childress eras of offensive ineptitude squarely on his shoulders.


Why leave out the most inept era of offense in the bunch, the current era? ;)

I didn't mean that Spielman was solely responsible for the entire era. I assumed by this point it would be obvious that I have a better grasp of football and Vikings history than that. My argument (and you've seen me present it before) is that Spielman has been a key decision maker in the organization for a decade now and the yield from that period of Vikings football is insufficient and unsatisfactory. A lot of that falls on his shoulders. It doesn't all fall on him. He's not the only factor in the failure to build a passing game, just a key factor, the guy who finds the talent and, for 5 years now, the man in charge of putting all of the pieces of a successful football team together. He bears a substantial burden of responsibility for the team's passing struggles over the years, not all of it.

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2006-2010 he didn't have full authority, so that isn't really fair. It is well known that Jackson was Childress's guy. After 2011, it is fair to assign blame to him, and that was the Ponder era. However, are you really going to advocate canning him on getting a QB pick wrong.


How about 2, plus contributing to a situation in which Joe Webb was the only QB on the roster going into 2011, thus necessitating the drafting of a QB like Ponder in the first place... plus, still not having a better backup QB by the end of 2012, when Ponder actually helped the team get into the playoffs, was hurt and they had to turn to the inept passing of Joe Webb in the postseason. I could go on but I don't want to see Spielman replaced because a pick or two went wrong. I want to see him replaced because I don't believe he can build a championship team. Nothing in his history suggests he can do it and 10 years with the Vikings hasn't made a very strong case for it either.

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Who are they going to replace him with that will suddenly hit the ball out of the park on QB picks? There is a lot of info out there that points to that particular position being about luck as much as anything else...


There's a lot that points to it being about considerably more than luck. That's why teams don't just spin the wheel of QBs on draft day and take whichever one they can get.

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I agree on QB and OL being a total mess and WR taking probably too long to reach the point they are at today. However, I believe a lot of this is on coaching. I'm not sure if Spielman is the person solely responsible for coordinator hires, I think the last two head coaches have had that say if I am not mistaken?


That's correct.

Quote:
One might argue based on that this Rick's only full coaching hire, Zimmer, shows he can get that right.

This also points to where I think the finger of blame should be directed. Zimmer has been great in finding defensive assistants and retaining Priefer was also a strong move. On the Offensive side of the ball the people they've brought in have been bad. It was a mistake to give Turner full control of the offense without any input from Zimmer and now they are faced with cleaning up the mess. It looks to have potentially cost them a SB window season. I only hope they have enough time to fix it.


One of the main reasons the offense has been bad is that the line has been bad and in many seasons the QB play has been pretty bad too. Some would argue it's been bad this year but I think Bradford's doing okay under the circumstances.

Talent and personnel have been huge issues. Turner was a poor fit for the Vikings but that was due in no small part to personnel choices that didn't enable him to effectively run the only offensive system he's ever run. That falls back on Spielman because it's his job to fill the roster with that personnel.


Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:24 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Here's an interesting article on the Cowboys' offensive line, and how they've built it. It published just before the Cowboys-Vikings game, and its headline is pretty instructive: "Cowboys' O-line an obstacle for Vikings now, but blueprint later."

Some highlights.

Ben Goessling of ESPN.com wrote:
The Cowboys are reaping the benefits of roster-building decisions they made in the early part of the decade, when they invested three first-round picks in offensive linemen from 2011 to 2014. Long caricatured as a team driven by the headline-grabbing whims of owner Jerry Jones, the Cowboys targeted players who played in pro-style offenses for blue-chip college programs.


Ben Goessling of ESPN.com wrote:
Those choices formed the bedrock of a line that's almost universally regarded as the league's best. And for now, the group remains one of the league's cheapest, with the Cowboys' total line cost of $21.4 million, ranking 21st in the league.


"One of the league's cheapest" ... compared to:
Ben Goessling of ESPN.com wrote:
Despite spending more than $32 million on their linemen in 2016, following an offseason push to acquire veterans for the group, the Vikings are fighting through a liability at the position thanks to a deleterious set of injuries and a smattering of subpar performances from veterans when they've been healthy.

This is the real key. It's not a matter of HOW MANY linemen you take. It's a matter of where you take them. Drafting in the early rounds, getting real athletic talent, making sure they play for big schools that play a pro-style offense and physical football -- that's been the formula for success in Dallas. Not hoping for the best in free agency from guys with big contracts and 100,000 miles on the tread.

Rick, are you paying attention?

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Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:29 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Here's an interesting article on the Cowboys' offensive line, and how they've built it. It published just before the Cowboys-Vikings game, and its headline is pretty instructive: "Cowboys' O-line an obstacle for Vikings now, but blueprint later."

Some highlights.

Ben Goessling of ESPN.com wrote:
The Cowboys are reaping the benefits of roster-building decisions they made in the early part of the decade, when they invested three first-round picks in offensive linemen from 2011 to 2014. Long caricatured as a team driven by the headline-grabbing whims of owner Jerry Jones, the Cowboys targeted players who played in pro-style offenses for blue-chip college programs.


Ben Goessling of ESPN.com wrote:
Those choices formed the bedrock of a line that's almost universally regarded as the league's best. And for now, the group remains one of the league's cheapest, with the Cowboys' total line cost of $21.4 million, ranking 21st in the league.


"One of the league's cheapest" ... compared to:
Ben Goessling of ESPN.com wrote:
Despite spending more than $32 million on their linemen in 2016, following an offseason push to acquire veterans for the group, the Vikings are fighting through a liability at the position thanks to a deleterious set of injuries and a smattering of subpar performances from veterans when they've been healthy.

This is the real key. It's not a matter of HOW MANY linemen you take. It's a matter of where you take them. Drafting in the early rounds, getting real athletic talent, making sure they play for big schools that play a pro-style offense and physical football -- that's been the formula for success in Dallas. Not hoping for the best in free agency from guys with big contracts and 100,000 miles on the tread.

Rick, are you paying attention?


Good post. They will have to either trade up or try to find those guys in round 2 and beyond. Definitely possible but obviously it would be great to have that first rounders. The biggest question for me is who plays LT? I hope they move on from Kalil but who replaces him? Is it still worth considering a trade for Joe Thomas or is he too old? Is someone else available in a trade? I can't see them finding a good LT in the draft without a first round pick. Durability is imo a huge trait that cannot be overlooked. Injury history, toughness, and intelligence are at a premium for me.

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Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:36 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Spielman is undefendable when you look at our history at the OL.

For years he refused to recognize Kalil was a failure. His ego was too big to admit it and fix the problem.
He refused to face the fact that Sully had a very permanent back problem and was extremely unlikely to come back, let alone be a starter for a season.
He staked his rep on a bust like Clemmings, and many others.
And over all, for many years, simply neglected the OL till it was so bad he had to throw money at it willy-nilly when the house was on fire.
As for trying to deflect blame on the coaches, Spielman is responsible for giving the coaches decent players to work with AND picking coaches ( or atleast giving approval for them). He is also the one responsible for assembling a core of scouts......all of whom seem clueless about Offensive Linemen.


Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:41 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Why is it that it seems like every year we are griping about something we should have been paying attention to in the draft but haven't? It was QB for the longest time then receiver and now OLine. We are ALWAYS a couple of positions behind the 8 ball. It always seems like we are one of those "if we only had x we'd be a contender" team.

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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
germannorseman wrote:
Why is it that it seems like every year we are griping about something we should have been paying attention to in the draft but haven't? It was QB for the longest time then receiver and now OLine. We are ALWAYS a couple of positions behind the 8 ball. It always seems like we are one of those "if we only had x we'd be a contender" team.

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Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:18 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
We also need a good Oline coach. Davidson wasnt it, I dont think Sparano is it. He would be as important as an Olineman himself if not more. Id say if we do everything right (which IMHO includes firing Rick) we are looking at 3 years. 2 of which we are in the cellar. I so much want them to win a SB before its time for me to me my Maker.


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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
you cant judge the OL coaches when the "talent" they are given to work with are a sad joke.


Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:47 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2016/12/13 ... ne-edition

Interesting summary of what the offseason market looks like right now. Not sure on how good/bad his opinions are, but some information to add to the discussion.

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Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:37 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
PurpleKoolaid wrote:
We also need a good Oline coach. Davidson wasnt it, I dont think Sparano is it. He would be as important as an Olineman himself if not more. Id say if we do everything right (which IMHO includes firing Rick) we are looking at 3 years. 2 of which we are in the cellar. I so much want them to win a SB before its time for me to me my Maker.


I don't think you can say Sporano isn't "it" when he's regarded as one of the best OL coaches in the NFL

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Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:21 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Not to defend spielman at all but I have yet to see a convincing argument of what should have been done that doesn't depend entirely upon futurvision and hindosight.

most of the conversations seem to go along the lines of "litany of faliures regarding Oline and draft picks that could be attributed to Spielman..." Followed by "admittance that the absurd injury rate this year makes it impossible to determine how the oline would have performed this year"

Again, I am not defending him. I just find it interesting that all the defensive credit on drafts swings farther and farther to Zimmer with little evidence and all the offensive draft issue fall more and more on spielman with the same lack of evidence.

I think it would be silly to give him a free pass. But I think it is also silly to write off every good thing he has done as essentially blind luck that any GM could replicate but all his failures are things that would be completely remedied by replacing him.


Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:40 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Also, apologies for going dark. My work blacklisted this site for a while as a gambling front...


Moth :nono:


Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:41 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
PurpleKoolaid wrote:
We also need a good Oline coach. Davidson wasnt it, I dont think Sparano is it. He would be as important as an Olineman himself if not more. Id say if we do everything right (which IMHO includes firing Rick) we are looking at 3 years. 2 of which we are in the cellar. I so much want them to win a SB before its time for me to me my Maker.


I don't think you can say Sporano isn't "it" when he's regarded as one of the best OL coaches in the NFL


So how'd we get him?
I understand what you mean, but we have to have an Qline coach that makes the older ones play with the younger team. To get mean. Make a statement. Cause if we have a good oline and D line, along with an above average QB, we will start to become a year in, year out. Too bad evevone in the NFL know we will pay anything for OT's.


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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
IrishViking wrote:
Also, apologies for going dark. My work blacklisted this site for a while as a gambling front...


Moth :nono:



Point that finger at Cliff, not me! :tongue:


Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:59 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
IrishViking wrote:
Not to defend spielman at all but I have yet to see a convincing argument of what should have been done that doesn't depend entirely upon futurvision and hindosight.


How can anyone be expected to make an argument about what should have been done (note past tense) without being accused of using hindsight? :) Such an argument literally requires looking back at choices that could or should have been made!


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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
His point is that your argument is essentially "The OL things didn't work out, so we should can him in hopes of finding someone better." or "We haven't won a superbowl yet, so it's time for him to go."

It is the same reason why I've been on your case about it so much. As the rest of his post states: Why do we think we can so readily find someone who will do better?

Also, the argument against Spielman exists in a bit of silo. Everyone is saying he hasn't done enough HERE to win a championship. Well every year 31 GMs have that distinction. The question is more what has he done to get us closer? How does that compare to against the field? And over the same time period? My guess is we'll find that while he has a concentration of failure in one area he also has a huge amount of success in others.

Where I'm struggling making the leap is that the Vikings Failures on offense and specifically OL can be cured by replacing the GM. you guys are throwing around this notion as if it is a simple change and without risk. For me, I can't say any of us have made an adequate and quantified case about what Spielman has done or not done to justify canning him. It feels like a hail mary move to me and that is why I'm not on board with it.

If someone here can show me that Rick is not compettive vs at least the top 25% of the NFL, adjusted for rebuilding, then I'm not on board that a new hire at that position is the answer. IMO there is FAR more risk than reward.

PS: As an addendum ot this post, let us look to our friends to the East. Their GM picked the best QB to come out in the last 10 years. He then road a train to a SB victory in 2010. Since then his team has steadily declined despite having the best QB in Football. This same team is now in 3rd place in the division and each year ooks less and less competitive. Would you say that Ted Thompson is a great GM? He has won a championship. So he gets that box checked. I know many Packer Faithful and they all tell me that they appreciate the championship, but Thompson has wasted the prime of Roger's HOF career and has under performed given the greatness they have at the most important position in football.

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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
mansquatch wrote:

PS: As an addendum ot this post, let us look to our friends to the East. Their GM picked the best QB to come out in the last 10 years. He then road a train to a SB victory in 2010. Since then his team has steadily declined despite having the best QB in Football. This same team is now in 3rd place in the division and each year ooks less and less competitive. Would you say that Ted Thompson is a great GM? He has won a championship. So he gets that box checked. I know many Packer Faithful and they all tell me that they appreciate the championship, but Thompson has wasted the prime of Roger's HOF career and has under performed given the greatness they have at the most important position in football.


In Thompsons SB win, Rodgers was 28- 11 TD INT ratio, under 4000 yards, and the D was significantly higher ranked then the O, not only that, but 3 of the Packers 4 playoff games came down to the D making a stop to protect a one possesion lead. (Team had 15 STARTERS on IR alone)

Idk what train your talking about that Thomson ride to the SB, but it doesnt appear to be the Rodgers train.

Steadily declined? Um, no? Since 2010, the Packers have gone 15-1, 11- 5, 8- 7- 1, 12- 4, 10- 6, and now pending this season. (Spoiler, its going to be 10- 6) That isnt exactly 'Steady decline'.

If you think Thompson has underperformed, then you hold him to the standard of being the hands down best gm in football, since Thompson took over the Packers win pct is second only to NE, and SBs second to the enigma that is the NY Giants. By all measure he has been seconded only to the Pats. (Though typically when we play them we are the better team, on 2010 when we barely lost with Matt Flynn, and 2014 where we beat them)

Sorry but winning the SB is about a lot of varying circumstances, not just QB, post spygate Bellichek has the same amount of SBs as Thompson, has he been a dissapointment? What about that loser Shula, who couldn't win with Marino? Or the 70 Vikes, Fran Tark and no SB win?

Unfortuantly many Packers fans are spoiled greatly by our past success, and refuse to take notice of just how immaculately impressive Thompson's run has been. Had Rodgers not gotten injured in 2014, this would probably be a far different conversation.

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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
mansquatch wrote:
His point is that your argument is essentially "The OL things didn't work out, so we should can him in hopes of finding someone better." or "We haven't won a superbowl yet, so it's time for him to go."


Except that's not my argument and that's never been my argument. It's a complete mischaracterization and honestly, I've put in a great deal of effort to convey a FAR more nuanced point of view so it's disappointing to read that you've come away with the impression above.

How many times do I have to specifically express that my issues with Spielman extend well beyond his handling of the offensive line before that point truly connects and sinks in?

As for the Super Bowl: I don't want Spielman replaced because the Vikes haven't won a Super Bowl yet. I want him replaced because I don't think he can build a team that will win one. That's a very different argument. If I believed he could build a champion, I'd be in favor of the team keeping him.

Quote:
It is the same reason why I've been on your case about it so much. As the rest of his post states: Why do we think we can so readily find someone who will do better?


I don't understand your apparent conviction that it's unlikely or impossible for them to find someone who can do better. The answer to your question is simple: other NFL teams have made such management changes successfully and gone on to win championships. There is no logical reason to believe the pool of GM candidates has run permanently dry and no team could possibly change out their current GM for an upgrade that might build a better team.

Quote:
Also, the argument against Spielman exists in a bit of silo. Everyone is saying he hasn't done enough HERE to win a championship. Well every year 31 GMs have that distinction. The question is more what has he done to get us closer? How does that compare to against the field? And over the same time period? My guess is we'll find that while he has a concentration of failure in one area he also has a huge amount of success in others.


Yes, every year 31 GMs have the distinction of failing to win the Super Bowl. Ironically, that's an argument that "exists in a bit of a silo". I'm not evaluating Spielman on a year-to-year basis, with each year isolated from the others. I'm evaluating his cumulative performance over a decade with the Vikings.

What has he done to get the Vikes closer? Not nearly enough. How does he compare against the field? Well, John Schneider became Seahawks GM in 2010 and they won a Super Bowl within 4 years. They almost won another one the following year. John Elway assumed the role of Broncos GM in 2012 after spending a couple years with the organization as an executive VP. The Broncos have been to 2 Super Bowls since then, winning one.

Over the time Spielman has been with Minnesota, 9 different teams have won the Super Bowl, that's more than 25% of the league. 13 different teams have played in the Super Bowl in that span. That's nearly 40% of the league. We could delve deeper but there are clearly teams out there with more successful management and leadership, teams that have been getting to and winning Super Bowls.

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Where I'm struggling making the leap is that the Vikings Failures on offense and specifically OL can be cured by replacing the GM. you guys are throwing around this notion as if it is a simple change and without risk.


I have never said it's without risk. I've said it's a risk worth taking, which is quite different. I don't think it's simple either, just necessary.

Quote:
If someone here can show me that Rick is not compettive vs at least the top 25% of the NFL, adjusted for rebuilding, then I'm not on board that a new hire at that position is the answer. IMO there is FAR more risk than reward.


So what? The reward for sticking with Spielman appears to be medicority. I see no reason for the Vikings to timidly cling to that mediocrity while other, better-managed teams win titles.

I'm not sure how you'd like someone to illustrate to your satisfaction that Rick Spielman isn't competitive vs. the top 25% in the NFL. Here are some simple answers: As I said above, over the time Spielman has been with Minnesota, 9 different teams have won the Super Bowl, that's more than 25% of the league. I'm certain if you check you'll find the Vikings aren't in the top 8 teams in the NFL in winning percentage during Spielman's 10 years with the team (or his nearly 5 full seasons as GM). I seriously doubt they're among the top 8 in playoff appearances over the past decade either and we know they aren't in the top 25% of the league in playoff wins over that span (or since Spielman ascended to the GM position).

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PS: As an addendum ot this post, let us look to our friends to the East. Their GM picked the best QB to come out in the last 10 years. He then road a train to a SB victory in 2010. Since then his team has steadily declined despite having the best QB in Football. This same team is now in 3rd place in the division and each year looks less and less competitive.


"Steadily declined"? They went 15-1 the following season. They haven't won another Super Bowl so they've definitely declined from that high point but they've made the playoffs eight years in a row and were an OT loss away from going back to the Super Bowl in 2014.

They're currently in 3rd place in the division but they're also 6 seasons removed from that SB win and again, they've reached the postseason every year. They nearly returned to the Super Bowl a couple of years ago. That's not a steady fall from the top.

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Would you say that Ted Thompson is a great GM? He has won a championship. So he gets that box checked. I know many Packer Faithful and they all tell me that they appreciate the championship, but Thompson has wasted the prime of Roger's HOF career and has under performed given the greatness they have at the most important position in football.


Then frankly, they lack perspective. Rodgers' career can hardly be considered "wasted" when he's actually won a Super Bowl. I don't think Thompson is a great GM but I think he's a much better GM than Spielman and he's at least managed to accomplish two things I'd love to see the Vikings accomplish: winning a title (something they have never done) and fielding a team that can reach the postseason and be competitive in the playoffs every year for an extended period of time. As an example, Thompson makes a poor case for retaining Spielman. His team has had far more success in the NFC North over the same period of time.


Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:44 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
That's a fair response.

I guess my response would be that I don't feel there is enough evidence to support that Spielman failed versus just took a risk that didn't pan out.


to make a very simple statement.

I think that Spielman made the decision this year and in the offseason to say "we are going to go in with a subpar to average Oline in order to eliminate the question marks at all our other positions for the first time in (insert laughably long time here)." I think it was a decent move. I think it was a solid bet. I think it was an acceptable risk.

It utterly blew up in his face but to me the difference in opinion stems from the fact that many here think that Spielman took a massive risk with the roster by doing this; IE scorched down an icy freeway in bald tires at night in a desperate bid to win. I see it as more, going 10 over the speed limit in winter tires and two of them burst and his engine started on fire. You can argue that 10 over is 10 over and hes at fault. But was 10 over REALLY the reason it all fell apart? Maybe he should have gotten the engine looked at or double checked the tire pressure that day... But really, how many days a week do you double check your tire pressure and give your engine the 10 point inspection before leaving :lol:

I get in the analogy it is debatable how much of a "risk" not fixing the oline was. But I don't think it was a matter of Spielman, 6 weeks in, walking over to Norv and saying

"Those guys, the big ones in front of Bradford... what are they doing on the field..." "uh huh" "... so wait... I am in charge of that?!"

He made a calculated decision it failed, but as others pointed out, so do 31 GMs every year. That might be unfair. I would say there are probably, rough guess. 10 teams every year that if they had made one major personnel change or doing a major thing differently they would have had a much much better shot at a superbowl.

Any GM we get is going to do the exact same thing; Make calculated decisions and cost benefit choices.

Another way to see my side is I fail to see the benefit to having a solid Oline right now with no QB and a much weaker Dline and Linbacker core. We would be stringing him up over focusing on the Oline when our D cant stop anyone or we dont have a QB to protect or weapons to take advantage of the protection.


Either way. It seems that Zimmer and Spielmen have a solid relationship and that Spielmen... "spoils?" Zimmer with high defensive picks when we should probably spend the picks somewhere else. I don't see either going until the other does for at least a couple more years.

He has nailed some good picks. On BOTH sides of the ball. It is disingenuous (not saying you do it, but some here do) to mitigate every favorable and positive decision made as in spite of him and all the poor choices due to him.


Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:43 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
IrishViking wrote:
That's a fair response.


Thanks. Just to be clear, my initial response to you was meant to be lighthearted, not a challenge that would kickstart the whole Spielman argument again. :) Oops!

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I guess my response would be that I don't feel there is enough evidence to support that Spielman failed versus just took a risk that didn't pan out.

to make a very simple statement.

I think that Spielman made the decision this year and in the offseason to say "we are going to go in with a subpar to average Oline in order to eliminate the question marks at all our other positions for the first time in (insert laughably long time here)." I think it was a decent move. I think it was a solid bet. I think it was an acceptable risk.

It utterly blew up in his face but to me the difference in opinion stems from the fact that many here think that Spielman took a massive risk with the roster by doing this; IE scorched down an icy freeway in bald tires at night in a desperate bid to win. I see it as more, going 10 over the speed limit in winter tires and two of them burst and his engine started on fire. You can argue that 10 over is 10 over and hes at fault. But was 10 over REALLY the reason it all fell apart? Maybe he should have gotten the engine looked at or double checked the tire pressure that day... But really, how many days a week do you double check your tire pressure and give your engine the 10 point inspection before leaving :lol:

I get in the analogy it is debatable how much of a "risk" not fixing the oline was. But I don't think it was a matter of Spielman, 6 weeks in, walking over to Norv and saying

"Those guys, the big ones in front of Bradford... what are they doing on the field..." "uh huh" "... so wait... I am in charge of that?!"

He made a calculated decision it failed, but as others pointed out, so do 31 GMs every year. That might be unfair. I would say there are probably, rough guess. 10 teams every year that if they had made one major personnel change or doing a major thing differently they would have had a much much better shot at a superbowl.

Any GM we get is going to do the exact same thing; Make calculated decisions and cost benefit choices.


Yes, but some are better at it than others and I think the Vikings need a better GM. It's that simple. As I've been saying all along, my opinion that Spielman should be replaced is not simply a reaction to the OL problems this season. I see those problems as symptomatic of deeper issues.

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Either way. It seems that Zimmer and Spielmen have a solid relationship and that Spielmen... "spoils?" Zimmer with high defensive picks when we should probably spend the picks somewhere else. I don't see either going until the other does for at least a couple more years.


I'm guessing that's exactly how it will play out.

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He has nailed some good picks. On BOTH sides of the ball. It is disingenuous (not saying you do it, but some here do) to mitigate every favorable and positive decision made as in spite of him and all the poor choices due to him.


I agree and I find it equally disingenuous when people try to wipe the slate clean for him prior to 2012. As you said, he's made some good picks and some bad picks. Coaches have undoubtedly had some influence on many of those choices over the years. However, as far as I'm concerned, the draft is just one part of a larger team-building and player personnel picture anyway.


Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:27 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Jim I think my problem I'm not finding your nuanced case to be that persuasive.

I still think this roster is a few injuries away from being top 4 in the NFC and perhaps top 4 in the NFL. So for me, it is really hard to say the guy you are blaming for the roster is bad. As I said several weeks ago, they really were a bad kicker away from being a top 4 team LAST season. In spite of the OL woes. Likewise this season the same kicker cost them. Now I get it, their record is their record. But a roster that is one position away like just doesn't add up to a bad GM, IMO. So yes, I find it EXTREMELY risky to throw a guy who built that out for hopes that instead of top 4 you are #1. How confident are you in the Wilf's to strike gold like that given their hiring history?

I just don't think your view stands up to this question: If they were a missed 27yd kick away from the cream of the NFC LAST season and then is it not fair to say that whatever mistakes that were made in prior seasons, they have improved on them since suddenly they are relevant. Based on that premise, then the only place I can look to take your position is the 2016 squad. For me it is REALLY hard to get past the IR list for this season as well as the kicker. It still feels like this is a competitive team, despite the worst injury situation in the league by most accounts. Again, given the circumstance, it is hard for me to see the GM as the root of the problem. IMO it could just as likely be the training staff.

So I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

As to GB comments that 15-1 team failed to win a playoff game, the only 15-1 team with that dubious distinction. If championships are the goal, then that is regression. They were much more competitive the year SEA won the SB. But since then they've been declining unable to get past strong defensive teams, most notably Jim Harbaugh's 49ers.

FWIW, the Qowboys are likely to be this season's 2011 GB Packers. They will march into the playoffs with the best record in football and get beaten. Their defense is substandard and their offense will lack the punch needed to carry them past a playoff caliber defense.

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Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:38 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
mansquatch wrote:
Jim I think my problem I'm not finding your nuanced case to be that persuasive.

I still think this roster is a few injuries away from being top 4 in the NFC and perhaps top 4 in the NFL. So for me, it is really hard to say the guy you are blaming for the roster is bad. As I said several weeks ago, they really were a bad kicker away from being a top 4 team LAST season. In spite of the OL woes. Likewise this season the same kicker cost them. Now I get it, their record is their record. But a roster that is one position away like just doesn't add up to a bad GM, IMO. So yes, I find it EXTREMELY risky to throw a guy who built that out for hopes that instead of top 4 you are #1. How confident are you in the Wilf's to strike gold like that given their hiring history?

I just don't think your view stands up to this question: If they were a missed 27yd kick away from the cream of the NFC LAST season and then is it not fair to say that whatever mistakes that were made in prior seasons, they have improved on them since suddenly they are relevant. Based on that premise, then the only place I can look to take your position is the 2016 squad. For me it is REALLY hard to get past the IR list for this season as well as the kicker. It still feels like this is a competitive team, despite the worst injury situation in the league by most accounts. Again, given the circumstance, it is hard for me to see the GM as the root of the problem. IMO it could just as likely be the training staff.

So I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

As to GB comments that 15-1 team failed to win a playoff game, the only 15-1 team with that dubious distinction. If championships are the goal, then that is regression. They were much more competitive the year SEA won the SB. But since then they've been declining unable to get past strong defensive teams, most notably Jim Harbaugh's 49ers.

FWIW, the Qowboys are likely to be this season's 2011 GB Packers. They will march into the playoffs with the best record in football and get beaten. Their defense is substandard and their offense will lack the punch needed to carry them past a playoff caliber defense.


You seemingly have no clue what you are talking about, "More competetive the year SEA won the SB"? My dude, we were 8-7-1 that year.

The Packers have gotten over plenty of good Ds in the playoffs, Bears, Steelers, Cowboys, I dont think their is any doubt they outplayed the Squawks and gave it up, which reminds me, why are you quick to excuse Spielman with "He almost this, almost that" but not willing to do the same for GB? BTW, the cream of the crop in the NFC is not the divisional round, its the conference round, TT has gotten there 3 times.

Furthermore, I think there is a reason you ignored my entire post.

Its like, you prop up Spielman for a 11- 5 season with a playoff loss, and put down Thompson for a 15-1 season and playoff loss. :confused:

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Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:56 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
mansquatch wrote:
Jim I think my problem I'm not finding your nuanced case to be that persuasive


That's fine. I had no expectation of persuading many people to agree with me when I finally adopted this position. I just ask that people not oversimplify or misrepresent it.

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I still think this roster is a few injuries away from being top 4 in the NFC and perhaps top 4 in the NFL. So for me, it is really hard to say the guy you are blaming for the roster is bad.


I'm not even saying he's bad. I've made that clear too.

Quote:
As I said several weeks ago, they really were a bad kicker away from being a top 4 team LAST season. In spite of the OL woes. Likewise this season the same kicker cost them. Now I get it, their record is their record. But a roster that is one position away like just doesn't add up to a bad GM, IMO. So yes, I find it EXTREMELY risky to throw a guy who built that out for hopes that instead of top 4 you are #1. How confident are you in the Wilf's to strike gold like that given their hiring history?

I just don't think your view stands up to this question: If they were a missed 27yd kick away from the cream of the NFC LAST season and then is it not fair to say that whatever mistakes that were made in prior seasons, they have improved on them since suddenly they are relevant.


I think they've improved the overall team but I don't think they've learned much from past mistakes because they continue stepping into some of the same holes. That's one of my main arguments against Spielman.

Regarding the Wilfs judgment: arguing that they've made a good choice with Spielman seemingly undermines your point about their judgment. Saying they can't be trusted to make a good hiring decision while simultaneously arguing that they've already made one (and presumably two, if we include Zimmer) is somewhat contradictory.

Personally, I think they've shown progress over the course of their ownership and I believe finding a better GM is the next logical step.

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Based on that premise, then the only place I can look to take your position is the 2016 squad. For me it is REALLY hard to get past the IR list for this season as well as the kicker. It still feels like this is a competitive team, despite the worst injury situation in the league by most accounts. Again, given the circumstance, it is hard for me to see the GM as the root of the problem. IMO it could just as likely be the training staff.

So I guess we just have to agree to disagree.


Which is fine but please understand, I'm not arguing that they aren't a competitive team. I'm not arguing that Spielman is a bad GM. I'm arguing that for too much of his tenure, including 2016, they've been mediocre and I personally believe the preponderance of evidence suggests Spielman is the wrong man to build a championship team. To me, the signs point firmly to that conclusion. He can build a team that reaches the playoffs. I seriously doubt he can build a champion.


Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:57 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Moth, out of curiosity. Spielmen is fired 2 days after the GB game. Who would you like to replace him? Who, realistically would you see being a marked improvement over Spielmen that we could realistically get? Is there a former GM, an unhappy current one, or a hyper sucessful assistant GM you think we could get?

Honestly curious as to what you see out there.


Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:21 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
IrishViking wrote:
Moth, out of curiosity. Spielmen is fired 2 days after the GB game. Who would you like to replace him? Who, realistically would you see being a marked improvement over Spielmen that we could realistically get? Is there a former GM, an unhappy current one, or a hyper sucessful assistant GM you think we could get?

Honestly curious as to what you see out there.


I'm not exactly in a position to know who the best candidates would be but if I had the Wilf's resources, I would certainly be doing the research. I have no doubt there are qualified individuals out there. Personally, I would look at executives with other teams who seem ready to take the next step or perhaps are ready for a change of scenery, particularly people with some football background who have been a part of successful front offices.

A few potential candidates:

Patriots Director of Player Personnel Nick Caserio
Ravens assistant G.M. Eric DeCosta
Chiefs director of football operations Chris Ballard

There are others out there too. I posted a little more about this on page 2 of the thread we have going about Rick Spielman.

I have no idea if any of them would be a marked improvement over Rick Spielman. My point all along has been that it's necessary to seek that person.


Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:11 pm
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