OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

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Nunin
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Nunin » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:10 pm

Mothman wrote:
... and that's why it really is time for a change.
I'm starting to hedge in that direction. :?
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Mothman » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:23 pm

Nunin wrote: I'm starting to hedge in that direction. :?
Be careful. It snowballs on you. :)
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Nunin » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:26 pm

Mothman wrote:
Be careful. It snowballs on you. :)
:lol:

indeed
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halfgiz
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by halfgiz » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:56 pm

I'm interested in how Easton and Sirles do for the rest of the season. Sirles has made some mistakes but has been getting some decent grades. Easton hasn't done bad filling in for Berger and has also got a decent grade.
Rather these 2 are backups or starters remains to be seen.
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by mansquatch » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:05 pm

You're essentially saying "It's hard and they might fail so they shouldn't try".

Honestly, that's not a compelling argument and I say that because fear of failure is a particularly weak reason for sticking with an approach that has continually failed to produce a team that advances and succeeds in the postseason. If they cling to Spielman, to what are they clinging? Lopsided rosters? Lack of postseason success? A decade of sub-par passing in a league where the rules favor the passing game? In the past decade, the Vikings have only been able to field a passing game ranked higher than #23 once. However, counting this year, they've been ranked 28th or lower in passing 5 times. That begs the question: does Spielman even know how to build a quality NFL passing game? It sure doesn't seem like it.

This is not what I'm saying. I'm speaking risk / reward. I feel that the risk of taking a step backwards is much greater than I'm comfortable with. Rick has done a great job of building a championship defense. One might argue that the only other team in the league having a similar level of success on that side of the ball is Seattle. So if we can him because of the offensive woes, then what guarantee is there we'll continue to enjoy the success we've had in finding defensive talent at all levels of the draft?

Also, I reject your premise on the question of Spielman buidling an NFL quality passing game. He is one part of that process, but not the only part. His job is to find/acquire talent. The coaches are then supposed to take the talent, develop it, and put it in a position to succeed. Your argument is placing the blame for the entire Frasier and Childress eras of offensive ineptitude squarely on his shoulders. 2006-2010 he didn't have full authority, so that isn't really fair. It is well known that Jackson was Childress's guy. After 2011, it is fair to assign blame to him, and that was the Ponder era. However, are you really going to advocate canning him on getting a QB pick wrong. If that was the criteria 2/3 of the NFL GMs would be constantly unemployed. Who are they going to replace him with that will suddenly hit the ball out of the park on QB picks? There is a lot of info out there that points to that particular position being about luck as much as anything else...

I agree on QB and OL being a total mess and WR taking probably too long to reach the point they are at today. However, I believe a lot of this is on coaching. I'm not sure if Spielman is the person solely responsible for coordinator hires, I think the last two head coaches have had that say if I am not mistaken? One might argue based on that this Rick's only full coaching hire, Zimmer, shows he can get that right.

This also points to where I think the finger of blame should be directed. Zimmer has been great in finding defensive assistants and retaining Priefer was also a strong move. On the Offensive side of the ball the people they've brought in have been bad. It was a mistake to give Turner full control of the offense without any input from Zimmer and now they are faced with cleaning up the mess. It looks to have potentially cost them a SB window season. I only hope they have enough time to fix it.
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Mothman » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:24 pm

mansquatch wrote:This is not what I'm saying. I'm speaking risk / reward.
Isn't that just another way of saying the risk of failure is too great so they shouldn't try to make a change for the better?
I feel that the risk of taking a step backwards is much greater than I'm comfortable with. Rick has done a great job of building a championship defense. One might argue that the only other team in the league having a similar level of success on that side of the ball is Seattle. So if we can him because of the offensive woes, then what guarantee is there we'll continue to enjoy the success we've had in finding defensive talent at all levels of the draft?


None. There are no guarantees but again, just what are they risking? They have one playoff win in 10 years. That's a track record the team should cling to as if it's too precious to risk?
Also, I reject your premise on the question of Spielman buidling an NFL quality passing game. He is one part of that process, but not the only part. His job is to find/acquire talent. The coaches are then supposed to take the talent, develop it, and put it in a position to succeed. Your argument is placing the blame for the entire Frasier and Childress eras of offensive ineptitude squarely on his shoulders.
Why leave out the most inept era of offense in the bunch, the current era? ;)

I didn't mean that Spielman was solely responsible for the entire era. I assumed by this point it would be obvious that I have a better grasp of football and Vikings history than that. My argument (and you've seen me present it before) is that Spielman has been a key decision maker in the organization for a decade now and the yield from that period of Vikings football is insufficient and unsatisfactory. A lot of that falls on his shoulders. It doesn't all fall on him. He's not the only factor in the failure to build a passing game, just a key factor, the guy who finds the talent and, for 5 years now, the man in charge of putting all of the pieces of a successful football team together. He bears a substantial burden of responsibility for the team's passing struggles over the years, not all of it.
2006-2010 he didn't have full authority, so that isn't really fair. It is well known that Jackson was Childress's guy. After 2011, it is fair to assign blame to him, and that was the Ponder era. However, are you really going to advocate canning him on getting a QB pick wrong.
How about 2, plus contributing to a situation in which Joe Webb was the only QB on the roster going into 2011, thus necessitating the drafting of a QB like Ponder in the first place... plus, still not having a better backup QB by the end of 2012, when Ponder actually helped the team get into the playoffs, was hurt and they had to turn to the inept passing of Joe Webb in the postseason. I could go on but I don't want to see Spielman replaced because a pick or two went wrong. I want to see him replaced because I don't believe he can build a championship team. Nothing in his history suggests he can do it and 10 years with the Vikings hasn't made a very strong case for it either.
Who are they going to replace him with that will suddenly hit the ball out of the park on QB picks? There is a lot of info out there that points to that particular position being about luck as much as anything else...
There's a lot that points to it being about considerably more than luck. That's why teams don't just spin the wheel of QBs on draft day and take whichever one they can get.
I agree on QB and OL being a total mess and WR taking probably too long to reach the point they are at today. However, I believe a lot of this is on coaching. I'm not sure if Spielman is the person solely responsible for coordinator hires, I think the last two head coaches have had that say if I am not mistaken?
That's correct.
One might argue based on that this Rick's only full coaching hire, Zimmer, shows he can get that right.

This also points to where I think the finger of blame should be directed. Zimmer has been great in finding defensive assistants and retaining Priefer was also a strong move. On the Offensive side of the ball the people they've brought in have been bad. It was a mistake to give Turner full control of the offense without any input from Zimmer and now they are faced with cleaning up the mess. It looks to have potentially cost them a SB window season. I only hope they have enough time to fix it.
One of the main reasons the offense has been bad is that the line has been bad and in many seasons the QB play has been pretty bad too. Some would argue it's been bad this year but I think Bradford's doing okay under the circumstances.

Talent and personnel have been huge issues. Turner was a poor fit for the Vikings but that was due in no small part to personnel choices that didn't enable him to effectively run the only offensive system he's ever run. That falls back on Spielman because it's his job to fill the roster with that personnel.
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:29 pm

Here's an interesting article on the Cowboys' offensive line, and how they've built it. It published just before the Cowboys-Vikings game, and its headline is pretty instructive: "Cowboys' O-line an obstacle for Vikings now, but blueprint later."

Some highlights.
Ben Goessling of ESPN.com wrote:The Cowboys are reaping the benefits of roster-building decisions they made in the early part of the decade, when they invested three first-round picks in offensive linemen from 2011 to 2014. Long caricatured as a team driven by the headline-grabbing whims of owner Jerry Jones, the Cowboys targeted players who played in pro-style offenses for blue-chip college programs.
Ben Goessling of ESPN.com wrote:Those choices formed the bedrock of a line that's almost universally regarded as the league's best. And for now, the group remains one of the league's cheapest, with the Cowboys' total line cost of $21.4 million, ranking 21st in the league.
"One of the league's cheapest" ... compared to:
Ben Goessling of ESPN.com wrote:Despite spending more than $32 million on their linemen in 2016, following an offseason push to acquire veterans for the group, the Vikings are fighting through a liability at the position thanks to a deleterious set of injuries and a smattering of subpar performances from veterans when they've been healthy.
This is the real key. It's not a matter of HOW MANY linemen you take. It's a matter of where you take them. Drafting in the early rounds, getting real athletic talent, making sure they play for big schools that play a pro-style offense and physical football -- that's been the formula for success in Dallas. Not hoping for the best in free agency from guys with big contracts and 100,000 miles on the tread.

Rick, are you paying attention?
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Maelstrom88 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:36 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:Here's an interesting article on the Cowboys' offensive line, and how they've built it. It published just before the Cowboys-Vikings game, and its headline is pretty instructive: "Cowboys' O-line an obstacle for Vikings now, but blueprint later."

Some highlights.
"One of the league's cheapest" ... compared to: This is the real key. It's not a matter of HOW MANY linemen you take. It's a matter of where you take them. Drafting in the early rounds, getting real athletic talent, making sure they play for big schools that play a pro-style offense and physical football -- that's been the formula for success in Dallas. Not hoping for the best in free agency from guys with big contracts and 100,000 miles on the tread.

Rick, are you paying attention?
Good post. They will have to either trade up or try to find those guys in round 2 and beyond. Definitely possible but obviously it would be great to have that first rounders. The biggest question for me is who plays LT? I hope they move on from Kalil but who replaces him? Is it still worth considering a trade for Joe Thomas or is he too old? Is someone else available in a trade? I can't see them finding a good LT in the draft without a first round pick. Durability is imo a huge trait that cannot be overlooked. Injury history, toughness, and intelligence are at a premium for me.
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by chicagopurple » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:41 pm

Spielman is undefendable when you look at our history at the OL.

For years he refused to recognize Kalil was a failure. His ego was too big to admit it and fix the problem.
He refused to face the fact that Sully had a very permanent back problem and was extremely unlikely to come back, let alone be a starter for a season.
He staked his rep on a bust like Clemmings, and many others.
And over all, for many years, simply neglected the OL till it was so bad he had to throw money at it willy-nilly when the house was on fire.
As for trying to deflect blame on the coaches, Spielman is responsible for giving the coaches decent players to work with AND picking coaches ( or atleast giving approval for them). He is also the one responsible for assembling a core of scouts......all of whom seem clueless about Offensive Linemen.
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by germannorseman » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:57 pm

Why is it that it seems like every year we are griping about something we should have been paying attention to in the draft but haven't? It was QB for the longest time then receiver and now OLine. We are ALWAYS a couple of positions behind the 8 ball. It always seems like we are one of those "if we only had x we'd be a contender" team.

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Jordysghost » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:18 pm

germannorseman wrote:Why is it that it seems like every year we are griping about something we should have been paying attention to in the draft but haven't? It was QB for the longest time then receiver and now OLine. We are ALWAYS a couple of positions behind the 8 ball. It always seems like we are one of those "if we only had x we'd be a contender" team.

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:57 pm

We also need a good Oline coach. Davidson wasnt it, I dont think Sparano is it. He would be as important as an Olineman himself if not more. Id say if we do everything right (which IMHO includes firing Rick) we are looking at 3 years. 2 of which we are in the cellar. I so much want them to win a SB before its time for me to me my Maker.
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by chicagopurple » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:47 am

you cant judge the OL coaches when the "talent" they are given to work with are a sad joke.
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by mansquatch » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:37 pm

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2016/12/13 ... ne-edition

Interesting summary of what the offseason market looks like right now. Not sure on how good/bad his opinions are, but some information to add to the discussion.
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:21 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:We also need a good Oline coach. Davidson wasnt it, I dont think Sparano is it. He would be as important as an Olineman himself if not more. Id say if we do everything right (which IMHO includes firing Rick) we are looking at 3 years. 2 of which we are in the cellar. I so much want them to win a SB before its time for me to me my Maker.
I don't think you can say Sporano isn't "it" when he's regarded as one of the best OL coaches in the NFL
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