OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

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Nunin
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OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Nunin » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:28 pm

So, I was wondering what were the numbers of O-lineman that got drafted by a team and are still with that team....and where the Vikings landed vs the league average.

The league average is a shade above 5. The numbers do not include UDFA because they were not drafted and because it would take a long long time tracking down who originally signed each guy.


Detroit Dallas and Tenn have the most 1st rd picks with 3, while TB, Carolina, Oak and Den do not have a 1st rd guy of their own. 8 other teams have 2.
Interestingly the number of UDFA is close to being equal to the number of guys drafted in rounds 4-7 combined...it may even be more, but I stopped counting the UFDA halfway through.


NE...7
MI...3
BF...5
NY...4

PT...5
CN...8
BA...6
CL...5

HO...5
IN...8
TN...5
JX...4

OK...4
DN...5
KC...5
SD...3

DA...5
NY...5
WA...5
PH...3

DT...7
MN...3
GB...7
CH...5

AT...2
TB...4
CA...3
NO...4

SE...5
AZ...4
LA...7
SF...7

Not sure you can draw anything from these numbers to suggest something conclusive about having your own guys vs having signed FAs....but some FA are definitely better than others and teams that have signed those types of FAs have less need to draft OL in the first place.

The only OL drafted by the Vikings who is currently on another roster is John Sullivan.

:popcorn:

edit to add: the Vikes would have been at 5 if Phil and Sully had been healthy....
and the stats came from football reference.com

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:57 pm

I mean it's tough. Dallas has a loaded OL and most were early picks. Oakland has, what I would say, the second best OL in the league and none of them are first round picks. There are many different ways to approach it. We haven't really had the cap space to overpay a big time FA and aren't going to have an early pick this year or last year
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Nunin » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:19 pm

@PHP
it is tough. looking at the teams who i feel have good lines vs those that don't, the issue of QB/OC stability comes to mind.
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teams with a quality QB that haven't been involved in an OC or HC shuffle seem to have a much easier time keeping continuity on the line. probably due largely to the fact that it's easier to identify guys for and plug guys into a system that already exists and has had success.
that could be said for any unit on either side of the ball.
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the raiders kinda hit the jackpot as far as having coaching and QB continuity through their rebuild along with mass cap space to get proven O-line guys in FA.
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i really thought the Vikes were headed there too...but the loss of TB, Phil and Sully laid waste to the plan. Now with all the other injuries, cap issues and change of QB/OC...they're really behind the 8 ball.
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Beavers and Clemmons won't cut it and I honestly believe Kalil is better off, for his own health and happiness, hanging it up.
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We'll see. lol
I'm liking the Bradford/Shurmur experiment thus far.

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by fiestavike » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:51 am

Nunin wrote: edit to add: the Vikes would have been at 5 if Phil and Sully had been healthy....
and the stats came from football reference.com

Ouch. Clemmings, Beavers, Kalil, Sully and Loadholt...not a single one of which SHOULD be on this team, and those are the OL the vikings drafted who were on the roster to start this year.

That's a devastating observation.

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Nunin » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:27 am

fiestavike wrote:
Ouch. Clemmings, Beavers, Kalil, Sully and Loadholt...not a single one of which SHOULD be on this team, and those are the OL the vikings drafted who were on the roster to start this year.

That's a devastating observation.
Hey, happy thanksgiving...
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At this point that looks bad, but I believe Phil, Sully and Kalil were all solid picks at the time. All of them being cut down by injury is concerning.
I think Phil and Kalil's bodies just couldn't handle/manage their own weight plus the rigors of the game combined.
Sully was a skosh undersized which may have factored in his demise.
But all 3 were above average at some point when healthy. So, in spite of how they wound up?....solid picks IMO.
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Clemmings and the Beaver? ohhh dear....
With the critical injuries, these two picks have set them back.
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I will say this, after going through each teams roster, the Vikes don't have to rely soley on the draft to catch up. UDFAs make up a large chunk of OL playing in the league....
Can they find quality and coach em up?

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by fiestavike » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:59 am

Nunin wrote: Hey, happy thanksgiving...
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At this point that looks bad, but I believe Phil, Sully and Kalil were all solid picks at the time. All of them being cut down by injury is concerning.
I think Phil and Kalil's bodies just couldn't handle/manage their own weight plus the rigors of the game combined.
Sully was a skosh undersized which may have factored in his demise.
But all 3 were above average at some point when healthy. So, in spite of how they wound up?....solid picks IMO.
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Clemmings and the Beaver? ohhh dear....
With the critical injuries, these two picks have set them back.
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I will say this, after going through each teams roster, the Vikes don't have to rely soley on the draft to catch up. UDFAs make up a large chunk of OL playing in the league....
Can they find quality and coach em up?
They weren't all bad picks, even Clemmings, who I think should've been cut, was worth a flyer. My point is that to start this season they really didn't have a single OL they had drafted who was roster worthy.

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Texas Vike » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:45 am

Nunin wrote: -
I will say this, after going through each teams roster, the Vikes don't have to rely soley on the draft to catch up. UDFAs make up a large chunk of OL playing in the league....
Can they find quality and coach em up?
Well, I'd like to feel good about your first point, but after reading your closing question I realized that the answer, so far, has been a resounding NO... so I'm not feeling too good about our OL's future.

I do think, however, that things have gotten so bad that Spielman and Zimmer will finally realize that they need to make a stronger commitment to the position. Even so, I can imagine them trying to bring back Kalil (which may be a good move, as long as we acquire two other tackles just in case his injuries continue to pester him). I suspect we'll see some creativity this off season at the position with clearing some cap space and acquiring more talent at OL. I hope so anyways.

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Nunin » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:16 am

fiestavike wrote: My point is that to start this season they really didn't have a single OL they had drafted who was roster worthy.
Agreed....that concern was the basic impetus for ths thread.~

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Nunin » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:23 am

@Tex
There still some season left for Sparano and Shurmur to find some cohesion and or stability.
But I'm feeling like they need to shake the etch a sketch and start fresh for the most part. When I read things that suggest they are whiffing on fundementals, like not getting low enough for run block, it makes me wonder.
Boone, Berger? Berger is getting older. I think Kalil should hang em up cause he seems pyhsically unable to maintain.
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It's messy

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Maelstrom88 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:26 pm

Nunin wrote:@Tex
There still some season left for Sparano and Shurmur to find some cohesion and or stability.
But I'm feeling like they need to shake the etch a sketch and start fresh for the most part. When I read things that suggest they are whiffing on fundementals, like not getting low enough for run block, it makes me wonder.
Boone, Berger? Berger is getting older. I think Kalil should hang em up cause he seems pyhsically unable to maintain.
-
It's messy
Yeah I think they need to draft at least 3 offensive lineman in this upcoming draft. Not a fan of getting overpriced retreads on the fa market.
Offseason Goal: Draft durable, tough, intelligent offensive lineman who are dependable technicians and avoid penalties aka drive killers.

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Nunin » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:46 am

Maelstrom88 wrote: Yeah I think they need to draft at least 3 offensive lineman in this upcoming draft. Not a fan of getting overpriced retreads on the fa market.
If they do draft several guys I hope it's not just for the sake of drafting guys. They've drafted quite a few guys over the past 3 years....and clemmings is the only guy who stuck. Beavers was let go but brought back, I believe.
Would also like to see them try out several UDFAs

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by mansquatch » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:19 pm

This might be confirmation bias, but your work reflects my pet theory which is that the issue causing the Vikings to have poor results from this position group hasn't been their drafting strategy (where they take guys) but poor talent evaluation and/or poor development & coaching of said talent.

FWIW, I'm not sure which of those two areas is more at fault. The Vikings made it clear last off-season that they felt Coaching was the biggest issue. I'm glad they took action, but it isn't hard to see Davidson being an easy scapegoat over say Spielman. Whether this was an improvement or not remains to be seen, it is hard to judge Sparano this season with so many guys going down. (I hope Long can come back, he was showing some promise before his injury.)

There also appears to be, at least IMO, some kind of durability issue with our offensive linemen. We saw Loadholt play 1 out of the last 3 seasons, Fusco was out for all of 2014 (this was adressed when they canned the str. and conditioning guy after a run of torn pecs), Sullivan had back issues. Kalil has been a mess with Hip and Knee issues. Harris is some kind of "other". Regardless, we have not seen the group play a complete season without someone being on IR since Zimmer became the head coach. So "something" is up with the durability. Zimmer has voiced this issue recently in one of his pressers and said he plans to look into it. Not sure where that will lead, but the results so far indicate there is an issue.

I think on the talent eval side that it is likely that as the offensive line shortage has hit the league as a whole the Vikings have probably been caught more flatfooted than most clubs in finding the right kinds of guys within the paradigm of the "new normal". I'm not sure how to fix this. Even if I accept the critique of Spielman within this group, it is hard to overlook his accomplishments elsewhere. I'm not convinced that canning him is the right answer, but it would be nice to hear some discussion from the front office about adjusting their methods.
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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Nunin » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:54 pm

@mansquatch
it's a conundrum indeed.
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one thing i find is that the o-line is one of the least likely places to find a good guy who needs a lot of development.
the learning curve is just too steep.
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it's a big enough task just getting decent lineman up to nfl speed. when you throw in a guy who is undersized (yankey) or a guy who has very little experience at all (clemmings and the polish guy) their chances of success are greatly diminished
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those 3 picks above, plus the german unicorn pick (i just don't get or support a pick like that when the o-line has been fooked for 10years), suggests to me that there is some disconnect about the importance of quality, servicable o-line depth. especially given how often injuries happen. too many wasted picks IMO...
chris childs is another questionable pick. throwing down for a wr that no one would touch because of a serious knee injury, when your o-line consistantly fails at pass blocking, is putting the cart before the horse IMO.
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coaching and development? i dunno at all. judging from my ametuer view...it often seems like they have a scheme or system that doesn't jive with the talent they sign.
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i don't think they draft OL well at all....for whatever reason. nonchalance...scouting...bargain hunting...philosophy?
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what amazes me and what might be fun to look at, is how just cutting mcKinnie, who started in the superbowl that season, while having no legit replacement completely effected the following draft and indirectly influenced the building of this roster.
what would this team look like if they didn't have to draft kalil at #7?

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by mansquatch » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:07 pm

It has been widely stated that there are two additional "macro" hurdles to NFL Offensive Linemen in articles and interviews over the past few years:

1.) The College OL is not nearly as proficient in NFL technique in this era than they were even five or ten years ago. This is due to the proliferation of spread offenses and linemen being taught to block out of a 2 pt. stance.

2.) The NFL CBA has imposed all kinds of limitations on traditional offseason activities and training camps, thus greatly reducing the time coaches have to teach and train technique.

If you add these two issues in, there is a real challenge to take a prospect and get him up to snuff. This was one of the drivers for my comment about the talent eval process and coaching. Perhaps an issue is that our talent eval is not finding guys able to succeed in the light of this new paradigm. Also, perhaps the coaches and coaching methods are also not proving as competitive in said new paradigm. In both cases it is really impossible to know if these are challenges that represent systemic issues or competency issues with the folks in the Front Office and/or coaching staff. It can be said for sure that whatever the causation, the results are not competitive. So something has to change.

There was an article I had linked that cited a stat that in 2015 all but 2 of the OL takne in the first round didn't start for their teams. This is one of the reasons why I'm not convinced that draft position is necessarily the issue for the Vikings.

One related issue I'm curious about: Is the durability issue one of training staff or talent eval? No idea on the answer.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

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Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL

Post by Norv Zimmer » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:18 pm

Last draft it pissed me off that we didnt draft LA'el Collins or whatever his name is. He was a top 5 draft pick before that murder investegation stuff, the dude went undrafted then chose to sign with the cowboys. What would it hurt to draft him in the 7th or use the pick we used to draft boehringer, biggest wasted pick ever imo!

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