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 OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL 
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Post OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
So, I was wondering what were the numbers of O-lineman that got drafted by a team and are still with that team....and where the Vikings landed vs the league average.

The league average is a shade above 5. The numbers do not include UDFA because they were not drafted and because it would take a long long time tracking down who originally signed each guy.


Detroit Dallas and Tenn have the most 1st rd picks with 3, while TB, Carolina, Oak and Den do not have a 1st rd guy of their own. 8 other teams have 2.
Interestingly the number of UDFA is close to being equal to the number of guys drafted in rounds 4-7 combined...it may even be more, but I stopped counting the UFDA halfway through.


NE...7
MI...3
BF...5
NY...4

PT...5
CN...8
BA...6
CL...5

HO...5
IN...8
TN...5
JX...4

OK...4
DN...5
KC...5
SD...3

DA...5
NY...5
WA...5
PH...3

DT...7
MN...3
GB...7
CH...5

AT...2
TB...4
CA...3
NO...4

SE...5
AZ...4
LA...7
SF...7

Not sure you can draw anything from these numbers to suggest something conclusive about having your own guys vs having signed FAs....but some FA are definitely better than others and teams that have signed those types of FAs have less need to draft OL in the first place.

The only OL drafted by the Vikings who is currently on another roster is John Sullivan.

:popcorn:

edit to add: the Vikes would have been at 5 if Phil and Sully had been healthy....
and the stats came from football reference.com


Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:28 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
I mean it's tough. Dallas has a loaded OL and most were early picks. Oakland has, what I would say, the second best OL in the league and none of them are first round picks. There are many different ways to approach it. We haven't really had the cap space to overpay a big time FA and aren't going to have an early pick this year or last year

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Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:57 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
@PHP
it is tough. looking at the teams who i feel have good lines vs those that don't, the issue of QB/OC stability comes to mind.
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teams with a quality QB that haven't been involved in an OC or HC shuffle seem to have a much easier time keeping continuity on the line. probably due largely to the fact that it's easier to identify guys for and plug guys into a system that already exists and has had success.
that could be said for any unit on either side of the ball.
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the raiders kinda hit the jackpot as far as having coaching and QB continuity through their rebuild along with mass cap space to get proven O-line guys in FA.
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i really thought the Vikes were headed there too...but the loss of TB, Phil and Sully laid waste to the plan. Now with all the other injuries, cap issues and change of QB/OC...they're really behind the 8 ball.
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Beavers and Clemmons won't cut it and I honestly believe Kalil is better off, for his own health and happiness, hanging it up.
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We'll see. lol
I'm liking the Bradford/Shurmur experiment thus far.


Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:19 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Nunin wrote:
edit to add: the Vikes would have been at 5 if Phil and Sully had been healthy....
and the stats came from football reference.com



Ouch. Clemmings, Beavers, Kalil, Sully and Loadholt...not a single one of which SHOULD be on this team, and those are the OL the vikings drafted who were on the roster to start this year.

That's a devastating observation.


Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:51 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
fiestavike wrote:
Nunin wrote:
edit to add: the Vikes would have been at 5 if Phil and Sully had been healthy....
and the stats came from football reference.com



Ouch. Clemmings, Beavers, Kalil, Sully and Loadholt...not a single one of which SHOULD be on this team, and those are the OL the vikings drafted who were on the roster to start this year.

That's a devastating observation.

Hey, happy thanksgiving...
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At this point that looks bad, but I believe Phil, Sully and Kalil were all solid picks at the time. All of them being cut down by injury is concerning.
I think Phil and Kalil's bodies just couldn't handle/manage their own weight plus the rigors of the game combined.
Sully was a skosh undersized which may have factored in his demise.
But all 3 were above average at some point when healthy. So, in spite of how they wound up?....solid picks IMO.
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Clemmings and the Beaver? ohhh dear....
With the critical injuries, these two picks have set them back.
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I will say this, after going through each teams roster, the Vikes don't have to rely soley on the draft to catch up. UDFAs make up a large chunk of OL playing in the league....
Can they find quality and coach em up?


Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:27 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Nunin wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
Nunin wrote:
edit to add: the Vikes would have been at 5 if Phil and Sully had been healthy....
and the stats came from football reference.com



Ouch. Clemmings, Beavers, Kalil, Sully and Loadholt...not a single one of which SHOULD be on this team, and those are the OL the vikings drafted who were on the roster to start this year.

That's a devastating observation.

Hey, happy thanksgiving...
-
At this point that looks bad, but I believe Phil, Sully and Kalil were all solid picks at the time. All of them being cut down by injury is concerning.
I think Phil and Kalil's bodies just couldn't handle/manage their own weight plus the rigors of the game combined.
Sully was a skosh undersized which may have factored in his demise.
But all 3 were above average at some point when healthy. So, in spite of how they wound up?....solid picks IMO.
-
Clemmings and the Beaver? ohhh dear....
With the critical injuries, these two picks have set them back.
-
I will say this, after going through each teams roster, the Vikes don't have to rely soley on the draft to catch up. UDFAs make up a large chunk of OL playing in the league....
Can they find quality and coach em up?


They weren't all bad picks, even Clemmings, who I think should've been cut, was worth a flyer. My point is that to start this season they really didn't have a single OL they had drafted who was roster worthy.


Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:59 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Nunin wrote:
-
I will say this, after going through each teams roster, the Vikes don't have to rely soley on the draft to catch up. UDFAs make up a large chunk of OL playing in the league....
Can they find quality and coach em up?


Well, I'd like to feel good about your first point, but after reading your closing question I realized that the answer, so far, has been a resounding NO... so I'm not feeling too good about our OL's future.

I do think, however, that things have gotten so bad that Spielman and Zimmer will finally realize that they need to make a stronger commitment to the position. Even so, I can imagine them trying to bring back Kalil (which may be a good move, as long as we acquire two other tackles just in case his injuries continue to pester him). I suspect we'll see some creativity this off season at the position with clearing some cap space and acquiring more talent at OL. I hope so anyways.


Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:45 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
fiestavike wrote:
Nunin wrote:
edit to add: the Vikes would have been at 5 if Phil and Sully had been healthy....
and the stats came from football reference.com


Ouch. Clemmings, Beavers, Kalil, Sully and Loadholt...not a single one of which SHOULD be on this team, and those are the OL the vikings drafted who were on the roster to start this year.

That's a devastatingu observation.
Hey, happy thanksgiving...
-
At this point that looks bad, but I believe Phil, Sully and Kalil were all solid picks at the time. All of them being cut down by injury is concerning.
I think Phil and Kalil's bodies just couldn't handle/manage their own weight plus the rigors of the game combined.
Sully was a skosh undersized which may have factored in his demise.
But all 3 were above average at some point when healthy. So, in spite of how they wound up?....solid picks IMO.
-
Clemmings and the Beaver? ohhh dear....
With the critical injuries, these two picks have set them back.
-
I will say this, after going through each teams roster, the Vikes don't have to rely soley on the draft to catch up. UDFAs make up a large chunk of OL playing in the league....
Can they find quality and coach em up?


My point is that to start this season they really didn't have a single OL they had drafted who was roster worthy.

Agreed....that concern was the basic impetus for ths thread.~


Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:16 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
@Tex
There still some season left for Sparano and Shurmur to find some cohesion and or stability.
But I'm feeling like they need to shake the etch a sketch and start fresh for the most part. When I read things that suggest they are whiffing on fundementals, like not getting low enough for run block, it makes me wonder.
Boone, Berger? Berger is getting older. I think Kalil should hang em up cause he seems pyhsically unable to maintain.
-
It's messy


Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:23 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Nunin wrote:
@Tex
There still some season left for Sparano and Shurmur to find some cohesion and or stability.
But I'm feeling like they need to shake the etch a sketch and start fresh for the most part. When I read things that suggest they are whiffing on fundementals, like not getting low enough for run block, it makes me wonder.
Boone, Berger? Berger is getting older. I think Kalil should hang em up cause he seems pyhsically unable to maintain.
-
It's messy


Yeah I think they need to draft at least 3 offensive lineman in this upcoming draft. Not a fan of getting overpriced retreads on the fa market.

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Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:26 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Maelstrom88 wrote:
Nunin wrote:
@Tex
There still some season left for Sparano and Shurmur to find some cohesion and or stability.
But I'm feeling like they need to shake the etch a sketch and start fresh for the most part. When I read things that suggest they are whiffing on fundementals, like not getting low enough for run block, it makes me wonder.
Boone, Berger? Berger is getting older. I think Kalil should hang em up cause he seems pyhsically unable to maintain.
-
It's messy


Yeah I think they need to draft at least 3 offensive lineman in this upcoming draft. Not a fan of getting overpriced retreads on the fa market.

If they do draft several guys I hope it's not just for the sake of drafting guys. They've drafted quite a few guys over the past 3 years....and clemmings is the only guy who stuck. Beavers was let go but brought back, I believe.
Would also like to see them try out several UDFAs


Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:46 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
This might be confirmation bias, but your work reflects my pet theory which is that the issue causing the Vikings to have poor results from this position group hasn't been their drafting strategy (where they take guys) but poor talent evaluation and/or poor development & coaching of said talent.

FWIW, I'm not sure which of those two areas is more at fault. The Vikings made it clear last off-season that they felt Coaching was the biggest issue. I'm glad they took action, but it isn't hard to see Davidson being an easy scapegoat over say Spielman. Whether this was an improvement or not remains to be seen, it is hard to judge Sparano this season with so many guys going down. (I hope Long can come back, he was showing some promise before his injury.)

There also appears to be, at least IMO, some kind of durability issue with our offensive linemen. We saw Loadholt play 1 out of the last 3 seasons, Fusco was out for all of 2014 (this was adressed when they canned the str. and conditioning guy after a run of torn pecs), Sullivan had back issues. Kalil has been a mess with Hip and Knee issues. Harris is some kind of "other". Regardless, we have not seen the group play a complete season without someone being on IR since Zimmer became the head coach. So "something" is up with the durability. Zimmer has voiced this issue recently in one of his pressers and said he plans to look into it. Not sure where that will lead, but the results so far indicate there is an issue.

I think on the talent eval side that it is likely that as the offensive line shortage has hit the league as a whole the Vikings have probably been caught more flatfooted than most clubs in finding the right kinds of guys within the paradigm of the "new normal". I'm not sure how to fix this. Even if I accept the critique of Spielman within this group, it is hard to overlook his accomplishments elsewhere. I'm not convinced that canning him is the right answer, but it would be nice to hear some discussion from the front office about adjusting their methods.

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Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:19 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
@mansquatch
it's a conundrum indeed.
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one thing i find is that the o-line is one of the least likely places to find a good guy who needs a lot of development.
the learning curve is just too steep.
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it's a big enough task just getting decent lineman up to nfl speed. when you throw in a guy who is undersized (yankey) or a guy who has very little experience at all (clemmings and the polish guy) their chances of success are greatly diminished
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those 3 picks above, plus the german unicorn pick (i just don't get or support a pick like that when the o-line has been fooked for 10years), suggests to me that there is some disconnect about the importance of quality, servicable o-line depth. especially given how often injuries happen. too many wasted picks IMO...
chris childs is another questionable pick. throwing down for a wr that no one would touch because of a serious knee injury, when your o-line consistantly fails at pass blocking, is putting the cart before the horse IMO.
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coaching and development? i dunno at all. judging from my ametuer view...it often seems like they have a scheme or system that doesn't jive with the talent they sign.
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i don't think they draft OL well at all....for whatever reason. nonchalance...scouting...bargain hunting...philosophy?
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what amazes me and what might be fun to look at, is how just cutting mcKinnie, who started in the superbowl that season, while having no legit replacement completely effected the following draft and indirectly influenced the building of this roster.
what would this team look like if they didn't have to draft kalil at #7?


Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:54 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
It has been widely stated that there are two additional "macro" hurdles to NFL Offensive Linemen in articles and interviews over the past few years:

1.) The College OL is not nearly as proficient in NFL technique in this era than they were even five or ten years ago. This is due to the proliferation of spread offenses and linemen being taught to block out of a 2 pt. stance.

2.) The NFL CBA has imposed all kinds of limitations on traditional offseason activities and training camps, thus greatly reducing the time coaches have to teach and train technique.

If you add these two issues in, there is a real challenge to take a prospect and get him up to snuff. This was one of the drivers for my comment about the talent eval process and coaching. Perhaps an issue is that our talent eval is not finding guys able to succeed in the light of this new paradigm. Also, perhaps the coaches and coaching methods are also not proving as competitive in said new paradigm. In both cases it is really impossible to know if these are challenges that represent systemic issues or competency issues with the folks in the Front Office and/or coaching staff. It can be said for sure that whatever the causation, the results are not competitive. So something has to change.

There was an article I had linked that cited a stat that in 2015 all but 2 of the OL takne in the first round didn't start for their teams. This is one of the reasons why I'm not convinced that draft position is necessarily the issue for the Vikings.

One related issue I'm curious about: Is the durability issue one of training staff or talent eval? No idea on the answer.

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Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:07 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Last draft it pissed me off that we didnt draft LA'el Collins or whatever his name is. He was a top 5 draft pick before that murder investegation stuff, the dude went undrafted then chose to sign with the cowboys. What would it hurt to draft him in the 7th or use the pick we used to draft boehringer, biggest wasted pick ever imo!


Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:18 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
I don't think the draft postiton means as much either.
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The evalutaion issue matched up with the changing needs is kinda the crux to me. The Vikes, for whatever reason, seem to be behind the curve.
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One thing I noticed when looking at the numbers was how many teams had several UDFAs on their rosters. Lots of them getting playing time.
Boone, if i remember correctly is an example.
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When looking at injuries: Phil , Sully and Kalil are of their own category IMO....vets with injury history. While the injuries to these younger guys might be exacerbated by poor technique/fundamentals....not being ready?
goes back to coaching and development if so.
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they definitely got to rethink their whole approach IMO....especially if there are no real gems on the market.


Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:28 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Quote:
This might be confirmation bias, but your work reflects my pet theory which is that the issue causing the Vikings to have poor results from this position group hasn't been their drafting strategy (where they take guys) but poor talent evaluation and/or poor development & coaching of said talent.


Don't you dare bring up the guy ultimately responsible for choosing these players! And hiring these coaches!
I blame Davidson. :whistle:


Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:01 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Demi wrote:
Quote:
This might be confirmation bias, but your work reflects my pet theory which is that the issue causing the Vikings to have poor results from this position group hasn't been their drafting strategy (where they take guys) but poor talent evaluation and/or poor development & coaching of said talent.


Don't you dare bring up the guy ultimately responsible for choosing these players! And hiring these coaches!
I blame Davidson. :whistle:


You should have read my next paragraph before rushing to post...

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Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:56 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Nunin wrote:
I don't think the draft postiton means as much either.
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The evalutaion issue matched up with the changing needs is kinda the crux to me. The Vikes, for whatever reason, seem to be behind the curve.
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One thing I noticed when looking at the numbers was how many teams had several UDFAs on their rosters. Lots of them getting playing time.
Boone, if i remember correctly is an example.
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When looking at injuries: Phil , Sully and Kalil are of their own category IMO....vets with injury history. While the injuries to these younger guys might be exacerbated by poor technique/fundamentals....not being ready?
goes back to coaching and development if so.
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they definitely got to rethink their whole approach IMO....especially if there are no real gems on the market.


Those guys are vets with history for sure, but for some reason all of our homegrown vets have injury history, which is my point on the training staff. It could be bad luck. It could be something else?

I think at least part of it is the changing landscape. Zimmer has been big on bringing in coaches with A LOT of experience. That has strengths, but it also can have weaknesses where guys are set in what they do. Could it be that when it comes to OL, the changing CBA and College landscape has rendered what worked in the past ineffective. I think that is likely, but rather than just reach the conclusion I phrase it as a question because we simply don't know enough to know if that is the case. It just as likely be that we've done a bad job of picking guys who can't handle the current learning environment, for whatever reason. I think that is less likely, but it can't be ruled out.

One thing we've seen with this organization is that they will go after a problem once they recognize it and they tend to figure it out. The problem is they seem to have a tendency to let the problem get pretty bad before fixing it. We've seen that with WR, QB, Secondary, and OL since 2010.

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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
those are good points.
especially in regards to them seeming slow to react to the problems. as wel as the coaching approach being behind if not systematically obsolete.
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the injury issue is totally confounding and i would imagine all the factors you mentioned...(talent eval, coaching/development, weight training/conditioning and luck)...have played some role.
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it's definitely the front burner issue as it has significantly marred, if not completely wrecked, a promising season.


Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:14 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
not only do we just have 3, but those 3 are garbage an wouldnt start on any other team. The true number of NFL quality OL guys on our team is 0......


Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:24 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
chicagopurple wrote:
not only do we just have 3, but those 3 are garbage an wouldnt start on any other team. The true number of NFL quality OL guys on our team is 0......


Berger, Boone, and even Kalil are all viable NFL starters. Talent is certainly a concern, especially at RT, but the major contributing force to this season's debacle was lack of durability. Change has been a constant enemy of performance for our OL all season.

We have to keep some perspective in that we never got to see what this line could do once it had some time to gel. We started the season with 2 brand new starters and our RG had moved from LG. That change alone added up to early season challenges. We never get to come out of the hole as the injuries started piling up. This season it has felt like almost every 2 games there is another change as someone on the OL goes down.

I'm not discounting talent, we obviously have gaps, but talent is not the only problem.

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Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:55 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Berger is nothing but a journeyman back up, Kalil had forever to prove himself and all he proved to be was a liability and penalty vending-machine.


Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:26 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
OK, so cut them both. So next year we need to find starters at LT, C, RG, and RT. I'm sure that will work out well.

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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
mansquatch wrote:
chicagopurple wrote:
not only do we just have 3, but those 3 are garbage an wouldnt start on any other team. The true number of NFL quality OL guys on our team is 0......


Berger, Boone, and even Kalil are all viable NFL starters


Berger and Kalil are the kind of viable starters they should look to replace. Berger, in particular, has spent most of his career as a backup for good reason. He had arguably his best season in 2015 but he's struggled this year along with everybody else.

Kalil just can't stay healthy.

Boone would be okay if surrounded by 4 other starters but he hasn't been worth what they paid him and as far as I'm concerned, his season is best described as a disappointment.

Quote:
Talent is certainly a concern, especially at RT, but the major contributing force to this season's debacle was lack of durability. Change has been a constant enemy of performance for our OL all season.

We have to keep some perspective in that we never got to see what this line could do once it had some time to gel.


While it's likely they would have been better of healthy all year, I think the idea that it was ever going to be a good line is basically a fantasy.

Quote:
I'm not discounting talent, we obviously have gaps, but talent is not the only problem.


That's true. Management is a problem as well! :evil:

Seriously, injuries have obviously made things worse but the Vikings set themselves up to fail on the OL so the outcome shouldn't surprise anyone.


Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:28 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
mansquatch wrote:
OK, so cut them both. So next year we need to find starters at LT, C, RG, and RT. I'm sure that will work out well.


Probably not (and I understand your sarcasm) but how well is it going to work out keeping those guys in the starting lineup?

Honestly, it wouldn't be a bad idea to find or at least start developing new starters at those positions next year if it's even possible. Remember, they have to actually re-sign Kalil to keep him on the line. Berger will be in the last year of his contract and will be 35 next season. They'll need to replace him soon if not in 2017. Fusco will probably stick around but he sure hasn't played like a deserving starter.

Do you begin to see why I think the Vikings need a new GM? This line has been botched beyond badly. It's crippled the team this year and repairing it looks like a monumental task. They literally don't have a starting-caliber tackle signed for 2017 or a player on the depth chart who looks ready to take on such a role!

Just thinking about it makes me want to :wallbang:


Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:38 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Jim: My view on the OL is that yes they all need to be better and probably some replaced. However, it isn't going to happen all at once simply because the resources required to successfully pull off such a wholesale change do not exist. I think that some of these guys are viable if surrounded by better talent. Ergo not having the walking setback, TJ Clemmings, starting.

I'm not convinced on management change:

This management has shown some ability to adapt to change, but it has never been a change leader. Change leaders are RARE in any industry and the NFL is no exception. In the NFL I would say that NE is the obvious change leader and a less obvious one is SEA. Beyond that, there isn't much out there. So I think if we are going to can Spielman in hopes of getting change leader, then we are smoking something.

The ability to adapt is a strength in it's own right. The issue I have with Spielman is that he has shown an issue in which it takes the organization perhaps too long to uncover problems before they become a debacle. What I'm not sure of is how much of it is on Rick and how much of it is elsewhere? My concern is that I'm not convinced that we can reliably bring someone else in who will be better better than Rick. I think that road is full of risk and in most cases probably not that much reward unless they hit a homerun an find the next Belicik. The problem I have is what happens if they don't hit the home run? My sense is that most of those "base hits" are likely worse than Rick.

I can completely see why some disagree.


The more I've thought about this, the more I think the issue is that our offensive coaching staff just isn't competitive. Zimmer on defense is a competitive, cutting edge coach. We don't have that same sideline talent on the offensive side of the ball. We are not getting the most out of our talent. Our scheme and production is mundane. We've brought in all this experience and yet the best offensive performance we've seen was 2013 under then unknown Bill Musgrave who is now coaching one of the most exciting offenses in Oakland. The OL mess is to me the biggest sign of this. We simply are not up to speed on dealing with the current league environment in the same way other teams are.

My gut has been stuck on the idea that we need to find Zimmer's offensive equivalent on the offensive side of the ball. Again, I can see why other disagree this is is just where my head is at.

Given the performance this year I suspect we'll see change.

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Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:24 am
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
I think Spielman considers himself a change leader...just based on many of his home run swing draft picks. Patterson, Barr, Hunter, Clemmings, the unicorn guy, Yankey, Childs etc. I think he is a free swinger and a gambler.
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He has a history that suggests that maybe he thinks he's smarter than other guys by the way he drafts players with athletic upside along with glaring questions in the capability department.
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Personally, if you're going to take a chance, I'd prefer a guy who is a proven commodity with character concerns over a good guy who lacks significantly at the position he's being considered for. Whether it's size, experience or injury etc. -
What I find interesting is that since Zimmer ha been here nearly everyone of these types of picks on defense has panned out. Which suggests to me that Zimmer has had a big hand in who is being picked there.
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On offense pretty much none of them have worked out well....for a variety of debatable reasons (see patterson for example).
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The most alarming to me is the Clemmings pick. They(he) fell in love with his size and athleticism and let that overule the fact that the kid had one year of expeirence, period, at the position he was being drafted for...which is one of the toughest to play period. In fact he was a D lineman his whole life.
Add to that, their extremely questionable history of developing o-line players to begin with and it looks like someone trying to hit a homerun who would be far better served on just connecting for base hits.You can't steal first base. Especially at positions as critical as o-line.
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I think Spielman is an average GM who has a bad tendency to gamble and Zimmer has made him look good....but the offense is revealing how fatal a flaw it may be. Signing expensive middling FAs is not a solution for craptastic drafting/developing...it's a band-aid. And if the band-aid falls(injury) off the bleeding begins.
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The injuries compound the issue for sure. It makes it almost impossible to evaluate what you have. And coaches input on picks will help, if they are the right coaches. Do they have those coaches and evaluators? It's a mystery.
-
what a mess..


Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:06 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
mansquatch wrote:
Jim: My view on the OL is that yes they all need to be better and probably some replaced. However, it isn't going to happen all at once simply because the resources required to successfully pull off such a wholesale change do not exist. I think that some of these guys are viable if surrounded by better talent. Ergo not having the walking setback, TJ Clemmings, starting.


I agree that transforming the entire OL into a quality unit in one offseason would be a tall task. However, they're going to have to sign at least 2 tackles, even if those 2 tackles are Kalil and Smith again. Maybe they can find 2 better options. Between free agency and the draft they should have a chance to add several quality o-linemen. With the right moves, they could improve the line in one offseason and lay the groundwork for to field a far superior line in 2018 and beyond. They need to make that happen , even if it means scouring the waiver wires, the CFL, small colleges, big schools and every NFL practice squad and depth chart.

Quote:
I'm not convinced on management change:

This management has shown some ability to adapt to change, but it has never been a change leader. Change leaders are RARE in any industry and the NFL is no exception. In the NFL I would say that NE is the obvious change leader and a less obvious one is SEA. Beyond that, there isn't much out there. So I think if we are going to can Spielman in hopes of getting change leader, then we are smoking something.

The ability to adapt is a strength in it's own right. The issue I have with Spielman is that he has shown an issue in which it takes the organization perhaps too long to uncover problems before they become a debacle. What I'm not sure of is how much of it is on Rick and how much of it is elsewhere? My concern is that I'm not convinced that we can reliably bring someone else in who will be better better than Rick. I think that road is full of risk and in most cases probably not that much reward unless they hit a homerun an find the next Belicik. The problem I have is what happens if they don't hit the home run? My sense is that most of those "base hits" are likely worse than Rick.

I can completely see why some disagree.


You're essentially saying "It's hard and they might fail so they shouldn't try".

Honestly, that's not a compelling argument and I say that because fear of failure is a particularly weak reason for sticking with an approach that has continually failed to produce a team that advances and succeeds in the postseason. If they cling to Spielman, to what are they clinging? Lopsided rosters? Lack of postseason success? A decade of sub-par passing in a league where the rules favor the passing game? In the past decade, the Vikings have only been able to field a passing game ranked higher than #23 once. However, counting this year, they've been ranked 28th or lower in passing 5 times. That begs the question: does Spielman even know how to build a quality NFL passing game? It sure doesn't seem like it.

It's certainly possible that replacing him could lead to a situation that's even worse but it's also possible it could lead to something better. There's no reason to believe that's impossible because we've seen that scenario play out for other NFL teams and result in championships. I don't think anybody needs to be smoking anything to think a "change leader" might be out there and might be found. Such leaders may be rare but there's no reason to believe they are extinct and consequently, there's someone out there who will be the next GM to help transform an NFL team into a champion. That's virtually a given so the question isn't if that person exists but how to find them. Finding them certainly seems worth the risk and effort since the Vikings have yet to win a Super Bowl.

Quote:
The more I've thought about this, the more I think the issue is that our offensive coaching staff just isn't competitive. Zimmer on defense is a competitive, cutting edge coach. We don't have that same sideline talent on the offensive side of the ball. We are not getting the most out of our talent. Our scheme and production is mundane. We've brought in all this experience and yet the best offensive performance we've seen was 2013 under then unknown Bill Musgrave who is now coaching one of the most exciting offenses in Oakland. The OL mess is to me the biggest sign of this. We simply are not up to speed on dealing with the current league environment in the same way other teams are.

My gut has been stuck on the idea that we need to find Zimmer's offensive equivalent on the offensive side of the ball. Again, I can see why other disagree this is is just where my head is at.


It's certainly possible that finding that coach could lead to greater success IF the talent is there. Maybe, like Zimmer, that offensive coach would have the vision Spielman and Zimmer seem to lack and an ability to identify the talent that would thrive in his system (much as Zimmer has on defense). Of course, finding an individual with those qualities to be the offensive coordinator could prove as difficult as finding the right GM.


Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:04 pm
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Post Re: OL Draft: Vikes vs NFL
Nunin wrote:
I think Spielman considers himself a change leader...just based on many of his home run swing draft picks. Patterson, Barr, Hunter, Clemmings, the unicorn guy, Yankey, Childs etc. I think he is a free swinger and a gambler.
-
He has a history that suggests that maybe he thinks he's smarter than other guys by the way he drafts players with athletic upside along with glaring questions in the capability department.
-
Personally, if you're going to take a chance, I'd prefer a guy who is a proven commodity with character concerns over a good guy who lacks significantly at the position he's being considered for. Whether it's size, experience or injury etc. -
What I find interesting is that since Zimmer ha been here nearly everyone of these types of picks on defense has panned out. Which suggests to me that Zimmer has had a big hand in who is being picked there.
-
On offense pretty much none of them have worked out well....for a variety of debatable reasons (see patterson for example).
-
The most alarming to me is the Clemmings pick. They(he) fell in love with his size and athleticism and let that overule the fact that the kid had one year of expeirence, period, at the position he was being drafted for...which is one of the toughest to play period. In fact he was a D lineman his whole life.
Add to that, their extremely questionable history of developing o-line players to begin with and it looks like someone trying to hit a homerun who would be far better served on just connecting for base hits.You can't steal first base. Especially at positions as critical as o-line.
-
I think Spielman is an average GM who has a bad tendency to gamble and Zimmer has made him look good....but the offense is revealing how fatal a flaw it may be. Signing expensive middling FAs is not a solution for craptastic drafting/developing...it's a band-aid. And if the band-aid falls(injury) off the bleeding begins.
-
The injuries compound the issue for sure. It makes it almost impossible to evaluate what you have. And coaches input on picks will help, if they are the right coaches. Do they have those coaches and evaluators? It's a mystery.
-
what a mess..



... and that's why it really is time for a change.


Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:07 pm
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