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 Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad 
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
HardcoreVikesFan wrote:

Unfortunately, I don't see a quick fix for this offensive line. We are stuck with a horrible player in Brandon Fusco for at least another season. Berger will be here one more season (which is ok). But, given the cap situation and the overall lack of talent in the FA pool - where are the upgrades going to come from this offseason? Hard to find instant starters on the line in the 2nd to 7th round.

Spielman and Zimmer have dug this grave. It will be on them to either lay down in it or climb out.


3.2 out of 4.8 million savings. 1.6 dead money. They can move on from Fusco if they want to.


Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:09 am
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
I think they had an opportunity to draft both Whitehair, who can play multiple spots, and La ell Collins this past draft.
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Both of them would been better investments than Treadwell and McKenzie in terms of teambuilding and balance...just from a draft philosophy standpoint, not knowing how any (one of those guys will turn out.
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They would most likely be playing right now given the injuries.


Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:34 am
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Nunin wrote:
I think they had an opportunity to draft both Whitehair, who can play multiple spots, and La ell Collins this past draft.
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Both of them would been better investments than Treadwell and McKenzie in terms of teambuilding and balance...just from a draft philosophy standpoint, not knowing how any (one of those guys will turn out.
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They would most likely be playing right now given the injuries.


Collins is a red herring. he announced through his agent that he wouldn't sign with any team who drafted him. He wasn't a realistic option.


Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:40 pm
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Nunin wrote:
I think they had an opportunity to draft both Whitehair, who can play multiple spots, and La ell Collins this past draft.
-
Both of them would been better investments than Treadwell and McKenzie in terms of teambuilding and balance...just from a draft philosophy standpoint, not knowing how any (one of those guys will turn out.
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They would most likely be playing right now given the injuries.


Whitehair is a guard/center. And Collins was 2 years ago and he fell out of the draft because of potential involvement in a murder case. Try again.

Also, I have no problem with the Treadwell pick because nobody expect Patterson and Thielen to step up like they did. Who is suppose to take over for Munnerlyn when he walks? He is in a contract year this year. I would have to imagine its Alexander.

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Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:46 pm
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Nunin wrote:
I think they had an opportunity to draft both Whitehair, who can play multiple spots, and La ell Collins this past draft.
-
Both of them would been better investments than Treadwell and McKenzie in terms of teambuilding and balance...just from a draft philosophy standpoint, not knowing how any (one of those guys will turn out.
-
They would most likely be playing right now given the injuries.


Whitehair is a guard/center. And Collins was 2 years ago and he fell out of the draft because of potential involvement in a murder case. Try again.

Also, I have no problem with the Treadwell pick because nobody expect Patterson and Thielen to step up like they did. Who is suppose to take over for Munnerlyn when he walks? He is in a contract year this year. I would have to imagine its Alexander.

i know what postions whitehair plays... and collins is on the cowboys as a UDFA. so, we coulda had him and mckenzie too.
i understand drafting for depth on the defense. my point was that for solid teambuilding, it's occasonaly a good idea to do it on offense as well....especially on the o-line.
also, i wouldn't just assume munnerlyn is going to walk. i mean he might now that you drafted a guy at his position.


Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:53 pm
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Nunin wrote:
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Nunin wrote:
I think they had an opportunity to draft both Whitehair, who can play multiple spots, and La ell Collins this past draft.
-
Both of them would been better investments than Treadwell and McKenzie in terms of teambuilding and balance...just from a draft philosophy standpoint, not knowing how any (one of those guys will turn out.
-
They would most likely be playing right now given the injuries.


Whitehair is a guard/center. And Collins was 2 years ago and he fell out of the draft because of potential involvement in a murder case. Try again.

Also, I have no problem with the Treadwell pick because nobody expect Patterson and Thielen to step up like they did. Who is suppose to take over for Munnerlyn when he walks? He is in a contract year this year. I would have to imagine its Alexander.

i know what postions whitehair plays... and collins is on the cowboys as a UDFA. so, we coulda had him and mckenzie too.
i understand drafting for depth on the defense. my point was that for solid teambuilding, it's occasonaly a good idea to do it on offense as well....especially on the o-line.
also, i wouldn't just assume munnerlyn is going to walk. i mean he might now that you drafted a guy at his position.


I know that Collins is on the Cowboys. He was possibly linked to a murder trial. Had a lot of question marks. You can't really blame the organization for not going after him. We were just coming off the AP drama. He also plays guard. I'm still waiting to hear a solution at tackle. Guard is the least of our worries. At least we have one good one of those

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Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:53 am
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
@PHP

Collins was not a suspect in a murder trial. A former girlfriend of his was murdred and the police questioned him just like they questioned everyone who knew her. He was never a suspect.
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Collins played left tackle all through high school and was a 5 star recruit. He coulda played anywhere. He got a chance to play his freshman year at guard at LSU....where he became a freshman all amrican as a true freshman. He also played guard his sophomore year.
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His junior and senior years he played left tackle. At the end of his senior year he was voted SEC lineman of the year.
He's and absolute stud and not a criminal.
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The cowboys got him as an UDFA and they didn't even need a tackle. But they invest in their o-line much the same way the vikes have been investing on D.
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I don't much like the cowboys but i respect the way they've built and balanced their team~ .
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I understand there were concerns about him....but they turned out to be bogus. Which is waht anybody that knew him was saying on draft night. I think the cowboys did their homework better than most.
Better safe than sorry I guess lol...that does seem to be the ultra-conservative style of this regime (right down to the playcalling). Except when it comes to trading draft picks that is ;)
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Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:04 am
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Nunin wrote:
@PHP

Collins was not a suspect in a murder trial. A former girlfriend of his was murdred and the police questioned him just like they questioned everyone who knew her. He was never a suspect.
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Collins played left tackle all through high school and was a 5 star recruit. He coulda played anywhere. He got a chance to play his freshman year at guard at LSU....where he became a freshman all amrican as a true freshman. He also played guard his sophomore year.
-
His junior and senior years he played left tackle. At the end of his senior year he was voted SEC lineman of the year.
He's and absolute stud and not a criminal.
-
The cowboys got him as an UDFA and they didn't even need a tackle. But they invest in their o-line much the same way the vikes have been investing on D.
-
I don't much like the cowboys but i respect the way they've built and balanced their team~ .
-
I understand there were concerns about him....but they turned out to be bogus. Which is waht anybody that knew him was saying on draft night. I think the cowboys did their homework better than most.
Better safe than sorry I guess lol...that does seem to be the ultra-conservative style of this regime (right down to the playcalling). Except when it comes to trading draft picks that is ;)
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Listen I understand who Collins is and what he has accomplished. I had us drafting him in some of my offseason mocks that I do. It's easy to now say, he isn't a criminal. But the question marks were way bigger back then. Should we have taken a shot on him? Yeah clearly. But after just coming off the AP issue and this guy having question marks, it was probably a little tougher than you think

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Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:26 am
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
@PHP
I agree it would have been a tough call...but I guess that's what I'm getting at. There's been an ultra conservative approach to the whole offensive side of the ball since Zimmer got here...even(especially) with the picks. While on defense they draft guys like Barr and Hunter, which raises some eyebrows at the time, but they work out well cause it seems they understand defense....they have an indentity there.
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When you look at all the guys that have been drafted on D and at the skill positions that have stuck and compare it to Willie Beavers and TJ Clemmings, I think there is an issue.
They need to 'throw downfield' a bit more in their drafting o-line, is all i'm saying. Even if the picks are not welcomed by the fanbase.
+
Jerry Jones was booed loudly for picking his center in the 1st rd. He didn't care.~


Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:47 am
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Nunin wrote:
@PHP

Collins was not a suspect in a murder trial. A former girlfriend of his was murdred and the police questioned him just like they questioned everyone who knew her. He was never a suspect.
-
Collins played left tackle all through high school and was a 5 star recruit. He coulda played anywhere. He got a chance to play his freshman year at guard at LSU....where he became a freshman all amrican as a true freshman. He also played guard his sophomore year.
-
His junior and senior years he played left tackle. At the end of his senior year he was voted SEC lineman of the year.
He's and absolute stud and not a criminal.
-
The cowboys got him as an UDFA and they didn't even need a tackle. But they invest in their o-line much the same way the vikes have been investing on D.
-
I don't much like the cowboys but i respect the way they've built and balanced their team~ .
-
I understand there were concerns about him....but they turned out to be bogus. Which is waht anybody that knew him was saying on draft night. I think the cowboys did their homework better than most.
Better safe than sorry I guess lol...that does seem to be the ultra-conservative style of this regime (right down to the playcalling). Except when it comes to trading draft picks that is ;)
-


Given our OL fiasco, I recently read a really good in-depth analysis of La'el Collins and how he ended up with Dallas.

One minor correction: The Cowboys did nothing more than most teams--they just happened to be one of two preferred teams for Collins, a southern guy that wanted no part of moving to snowy and chilly MN. No one had the cojones to draft him and that was a mistake. Collins' camp admitted that they were bluffing when they said that they would be willing to sit out a year if anyone drafted him outside of the 3rd round. We were willing to draft the German Unicorn but not Collins? That seems crazy to me.

After the draft MANY teams requested his talents, but he quickly eliminated many based on personal preferences. I'm guessing that the Vikings were one of them (something like 22 teams if memory serves me). My only beef is that we didn't roll the dice on him in the 6th or 7th round.


Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:10 pm
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Texas Vike wrote:
Nunin wrote:
@PHP

Collins was not a suspect in a murder trial. A former girlfriend of his was murdred and the police questioned him just like they questioned everyone who knew her. He was never a suspect.
-
Collins played left tackle all through high school and was a 5 star recruit. He coulda played anywhere. He got a chance to play his freshman year at guard at LSU....where he became a freshman all amrican as a true freshman. He also played guard his sophomore year.
-
His junior and senior years he played left tackle. At the end of his senior year he was voted SEC lineman of the year.
He's and absolute stud and not a criminal.
-
The cowboys got him as an UDFA and they didn't even need a tackle. But they invest in their o-line much the same way the vikes have been investing on D.
-
I don't much like the cowboys but i respect the way they've built and balanced their team~ .
-
I understand there were concerns about him....but they turned out to be bogus. Which is waht anybody that knew him was saying on draft night. I think the cowboys did their homework better than most.
Better safe than sorry I guess lol...that does seem to be the ultra-conservative style of this regime (right down to the playcalling). Except when it comes to trading draft picks that is ;)
-


Given our OL fiasco, I recently read a really good in-depth analysis of La'el Collins and how he ended up with Dallas.

One minor correction: The Cowboys did nothing more than most teams--they just happened to be one of two preferred teams for Collins, a southern guy that wanted no part of moving to snowy and chilly MN. No one had the cojones to draft him and that was a mistake. Collins' camp admitted that they were bluffing when they said that they would be willing to sit out a year if anyone drafted him outside of the 3rd round. We were willing to draft the German Unicorn but not Collins? That seems crazy to me.

After the draft MANY teams requested his talents, but he quickly eliminated many based on personal preferences. I'm guessing that the Vikings were one of them (something like 22 teams if memory serves me). My only beef is that we didn't roll the dice on him in the 6th or 7th round.

Thanks Tex....good info.

I still scratch my head at the unicorn pick...WTF? It does seem a bit insane to pass up a 1st rd talent at tackle for a million to 1 longshot at WR...after drafting wr in rd 1!
I know it would have run the risk of a PR snafu...but if i remember correctly, the actual situation of Collins' innocence of ANY wrongdoing had been established halfway through the draft. Maybe i'm mis-remembering that.

Point is they need to error on the side of talent on the o-line and sort the other stuff out in camp. Collins would look really good in purple right now.....as would whitehair. I would have happily traded Treadwell for either of them on draft night aa well as today. I don't care how good or bad Treadwell turns out to be.
Makes 0 sense to me to continually draft and overpay for weapons for a qb you can't keep upright. Which, if you have been watching, has been the o-line issue since TJack was here.

They have had some good seasons run blocking, but they have been crap at pass blocking for the better part of 2 decades.


Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:26 pm
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Nunin wrote:
Makes 0 sense to me to continually draft and overpay for weapons for a qb you can't keep upright. Which, if you have been watching, has been the o-line issue since TJack was here.

They have had some good seasons run blocking, but they have been crap at pass blocking for the better part of 2 decades.


Yes, and even their run blocking left a lot to be desired at times. Over the past decade, it would have made so much sense to prioritize the o-line to best protect the young QBs they've tried to develop and simultaneously maximize Adrian Peterson, the team's greatest personnel asset over that same time period.

What repeatedly gets lost in the passionate defense of Rick Spielman is that his overall approach to building a championship team has not been very effective (or even terribly logical at times).

I apologize to all for :deadhorse: but I'm ready to see major changes within the Vikings organization, beginning with the GM. No sacred cows. Nobody is immune. Please, find the right people and finally build a winner. Heaven knows, we fans have been waiting long enough.


Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:58 pm
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Mothman wrote:
Nunin wrote:
Makes 0 sense to me to continually draft and overpay for weapons for a qb you can't keep upright. Which, if you have been watching, has been the o-line issue since TJack was here.

They have had some good seasons run blocking, but they have been crap at pass blocking for the better part of 2 decades.


Yes, and even their run blocking left a lot to be desired at times. Over the past decade, it would have made so much sense to prioritize the o-line to best protect the young QBs they've tried to develop and simultaneously maximize Adrian Peterson, the team's greatest personnel asset over that same time period.

What repeatedly gets lost in the passionate defense of Rick Spielman is that his overall approach to building a championship team has not been very effective (or even terribly logical at times).

I apologize to all for :deadhorse: but I'm ready to see major changes within the Vikings organization, beginning with the GM. No sacred cows. Nobody is immune. Please, find the right people and finally build a winner. Heaven knows, we fans have been waiting long enough.


I disagree with your view on Spielman and have recently laid out the OL options over the past 3 years. However I've gone back and forth with you plenty of times before so this is more towards the entire board in general . I just feel that many forget that if we drafted OL like everyone claims we should of done because there were SO many options out there recently, we wouldn't have guys like Anthony Barr, Eric Kendricks, Xavier Rhodes, Danielle Hunter, Trae Waynes, Harrison Smith, etc. Guys like them wouldn't be on this roster and if roles were reversed, I'm sure many would say Spielman doesn't know how to build a defense. Does anyone realize how hard it is to build an elite defense and a top notch offense?? Especially when you lose the 4 most important positions on the offensive side of the ball. There aren't many teams ever that have the best of both worlds.

I just feel like guys think we could have this defense and dallas' offensive line all at the same time. It wasn't possible. It was literally impossible. So you guys can complain about Spielman all you want but all the Spielman haters would be saying the same thing if we had Dallas' OL but a below average defense.

He built an elite defense. People seem to forget that. Could the offense be better. Probably but when you get hit with injuries like we did, there isn't much you could do

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Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:47 pm
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Post Re: Vikes-Cards ... The Good and The Bad
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
I disagree with your view on Spielman and have recently laid out the OL options over the past 3 years. However I've gone back and forth with you plenty of times before so this is more towards the entire board in general . I just feel that many forget that if we drafted OL like everyone claims we should of done because there were SO many options out there recently, we wouldn't have guys like Anthony Barr, Eric Kendricks, Xavier Rhodes, Danielle Hunter, Trae Waynes, Harrison Smith, etc.


I honestly don't think anybody on the board is forgetting that. I think we all understand there's an opportunity cost and grasp that if they'd drafted Zack Martin or Travis Frederick, for example, someone they actually drafted wouldn't be on the team.

Quote:
Guys like them wouldn't be on this roster and if roles were reversed, I'm sure many would say Spielman doesn't know how to build a defense. Does anyone realize how hard it is to build an elite defense and a top notch offense??


Of course.

Quote:
I just feel like guys think we could have this defense and dallas' offensive line all at the same time.


I don't think I've seen a single person suggest the Vikings should be a top 5 team on both sides of the ball. However, I do think many of us believe the Vikes should be able to have a very good defense and an offense that's not one of the worst in the league.

Quote:
He built an elite defense. People seem to forget that.


You keep saying this but as far as I can tell, nobody is forgetting it. It's just that building an elite defense at the expense of the offense is not a winning strategy. When you start a new coaching regime with the offense at #13 and the defense at #31 and end up with the offense at #32 and the defense at #3, that's not much progress. That's not good team-building. It's just exchanging one huge problem for another, one bottom-of-the league unit for another.

Quote:
Could the offense be better. Probably but when you get hit with injuries like we did, there isn't much you could do


The injuries this season can only excuse so much. The offensive issues extend back well before they occurred. That point has been made dozens of times. Injuries have hurt the Vikes offense and they've fallen to the bottom of the league but they fell to #32 from #29. It's not as if they were an average or above average unit that experienced a precipitous fall due to injuries. They just went from bad to worse.


Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:51 pm
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