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 Where the Vikings' run game is broken 
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
i meant guilty ^ not quilty. that was too funny of a typo to correct. i can see him sitting down in his den by the fire banging out quilts in the cold months. that would make him quilty imo. he kinda has that look.


Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:52 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Mothman wrote:
Alaskan wrote:
My first post on this forum. I cannot disagree with the " Fire the GM " talk more. Slick Rick has done a solid job building a team along with the coaching staff. The O Line is horrible right now, nobody is going to argue with that. But AP lead the league in rushing last year behind an O Line he had a hand in assembling. Teddy was running for his life, but that was as much a product of a slow developing Air Coryell Norv Turner Offensive Scheme as it was the offensive line. The O line wasn't great, but it was a serviceable product. The staff made a few changes to the line in the additions of Boone and Smith and had planned on some competition. I believe if they hadn't been decimated by injuries on the line they would be better than last years line. They are going to start there 10th different o line combination this week!! You cannot build continuity, nor can the line communicate with each other properly when there is that much change going on. That being said, I don't see the O line being fixed this season and I because of that, they wont make a deep playoff run. I expect some changes to the line next season, but they wont be earth shattering moves....they just wont be able to afford it unless they move some young defensive capital.



:welcome to the board and thanks for posting.

As I said above, I don't expect much agreement regarding Spielman and that's fine. :)


Thank Mothman! This is a great forum for Vikings Fans! I appreciate your opinions, insight and the information you provide here. I don't necessarily agree with your view all the time, but there is no doubt you know your football!!


Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:27 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Alaskan wrote:
Thank Mothman! This is a great forum for Vikings Fans! I appreciate your opinions, insight and the information you provide here. I don't necessarily agree with your view all the time, but there is no doubt you know your football!!


Thanks. :) I try!

None of us ever see eye-to-eye about the team all the time but that's part of what makes a forum like this interesting. If we just nodded in agreement about everything, it would get awfully dull.


Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:35 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Mothman wrote:
Alaskan wrote:
Thank Mothman! This is a great forum for Vikings Fans! I appreciate your opinions, insight and the information you provide here. I don't necessarily agree with your view all the time, but there is no doubt you know your football!!


Thanks. :) I try!

None of us ever see eye-to-eye about the team all the time but that's part of what makes a forum like this interesting. If we just nodded in agreement about everything, it would get awfully dull.


I disagree! :tongue:


Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:07 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
losperros wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Alaskan wrote:
Thank Mothman! This is a great forum for Vikings Fans! I appreciate your opinions, insight and the information you provide here. I don't necessarily agree with your view all the time, but there is no doubt you know your football!!


Thanks. :) I try!

None of us ever see eye-to-eye about the team all the time but that's part of what makes a forum like this interesting. If we just nodded in agreement about everything, it would get awfully dull.


I disagree! :tongue:


I agree with you.


Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:37 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Are the Vikings still on pace to have one of the worst rushing offenses in NFL history? I'm imagining so, since not much has changed.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:21 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
is it really nfl history?
i was under the impression it was team history.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:27 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Nunin wrote:
is it really nfl history?
i was under the impression it was team history.


Could be. I don't really remember if it was team/NFL or team/NFL history to that point in the season where I saw the stat...Maybe even just a "moder era" thing, but I thought it involved their ineptitude on a overall historical basis of the NFL because I remember being so disgusted...I could be wrong.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:41 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
PacificNorseWest wrote:
Nunin wrote:
is it really nfl history?
i was under the impression it was team history.


Could be. I don't really remember if it was team/NFL or team/NFL history to that point in the season where I saw the stat...Maybe even just a "moder era" thing, but I thought it involved their ineptitude on a overall historical basis of the NFL because I remember being so disgusted...I could be wrong.

tis disgusting either way IMO, especially after have the league leader last year.
-
i think a functional o-line requires consistency first...even more than talent. the vikes consistency has been injuries and inconsistency lol
sparano has had a handful.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:57 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Aikman just said historically bad without differentiation then Buck followed up the next play and said "in franchis history" or something along those lines, so I don't know, but you're right...disgusting regardless.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:10 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Nunin wrote:
is it really nfl history?
i was under the impression it was team history.



It's both. They're not on pace to have THE worst running game in NFL history but they're on pace to be in that team picture and could easily end up having the worst in decades.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:29 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Mothman wrote:
Nunin wrote:
is it really nfl history?
i was under the impression it was team history.



It's both. They're not on pace to have THE worst running game in NFL history but they're on pace to be in that team picture and could easily end up having the worst in decades.


Averaged 3.0 yards a carry today...slight improvement.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:11 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Yesss....Movin' on up!!!


Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:41 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Mothman wrote:
Nunin wrote:
is it really nfl history?
i was under the impression it was team history.



It's both. They're not on pace to have THE worst running game in NFL history but they're on pace to be in that team picture and could easily end up having the worst in decades.


Or could easily end up *not* having the worst in decades.

The offense is a mess. Lost starting QB. Highest paid franchise once in a career HB. Multiple OL.

I personally believe if we had Norv today, we would have lost. I don't like Norv or Shurmur. But when you're in the situation we're in? Shurmur seems like the obvious choice over Norv. Even if the run game is limping in the ditch....


Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:15 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Demi wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Nunin wrote:
is it really nfl history?
i was under the impression it was team history.



It's both. They're not on pace to have THE worst running game in NFL history but they're on pace to be in that team picture and could easily end up having the worst in decades.


Or could easily end up *not* having the worst in decades.

The offense is a mess. Lost starting QB. Highest paid franchise once in a career HB. Multiple OL.

I personally believe if we had Norv today, we would have lost. I don't like Norv or Shurmur. But when you're in the situation we're in? Shurmur seems like the obvious choice over Norv. Even if the run game is limping in the ditch....


This makes sense. I retract any condescension that I may have come across as, in the other thread (Not that I ever want to come across that way willingly, but I did feel bad once I hit submit).

I do want to ask you though...Why is it you think that? For me, the obvious answer is Patterson and Shurmur's willingness to get him involved. That simply did not seem to exist with Norv. There's more of a short passing game on short yardage plays than there was with Norv as well, but to whomever's credit, the Vikings and McKinnon actually carved out decent chunks on their first or second down runs than they did with Norv, which isn't completely a playcalling deal.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:51 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
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I do want to ask you though...Why is it you think that?


Norv is going to run "his offense", regardless of personnel. We saw it while he was here. We saw it before he was here. We saw it regardless of injuries. He has an idea of what he wants to do, and he's going to do it. Even if Teddy struggles to run the offense, and the WRs struggle to run his routes.

Shurmur is more adaptable. If Norv doesn't resign, would this team end up with more wins? I don't think so, considering the situation the team is at right now.


Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:41 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
From what we've seen so far from the two, I agree.


Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:02 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Demi wrote:
Or could easily end up *not* having the worst in decades.


True, but the discussion was what they were on pace to do.


Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:43 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Mothman wrote:
Demi wrote:
Or could easily end up *not* having the worst in decades.


True, but the discussion was what they were on pace to do.

It was ugly yesterday, and that was one of our better games. We sat in the 40th row of the lower level in the end zone, a great place to sit. You can really see plays develop, like an all-22 view. The difference between when the Cardinals ran the ball (especially the first half) and when we ran the ball was stunning. Even on the somewhat positive plays, it looked like our backs were running straight into 1,000 pounds of humanity. Meanwhile, the Cardinals took advantage of what seems to be a tendency our defense has, which is to over-pursue. Yet, their line is banged up, as well.

If the Vikings' play doesn't improve in the running game -- and there is no indication they will -- we will certainly threaten records for futility.

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Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:22 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Demi wrote:
Or could easily end up *not* having the worst in decades.


True, but the discussion was what they were on pace to do.

It was ugly yesterday, and that was one of our better games. We sat in the 40th row of the lower level in the end zone, a great place to sit. You can really see plays develop, like an all-22 view. The difference between when the Cardinals ran the ball (especially the first half) and when we ran the ball was stunning. Even on the somewhat positive plays, it looked like our backs were running straight into 1,000 pounds of humanity. Meanwhile, the Cardinals took advantage of what seems to be a tendency our defense has, which is to over-pursue. Yet, their line is banged up, as well.

If the Vikings' play doesn't improve in the running game -- and there is no indication they will -- we will certainly threaten records for futility.


It's hard to believe they've let it come to this but your description is right on target.

You described one of my favorite aspects of seeing a game in person: the ability to see plays develop because you can see the entire field, not just what fits on a TV screen. It's a very different experience.


Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:16 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
never works for me...I ALWAYS get fooled into following the recipient of the faked hand-off and missing the play.....


Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:02 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Demi wrote:
Quote:
I do want to ask you though...Why is it you think that?


Norv is going to run "his offense", regardless of personnel. We saw it while he was here. We saw it before he was here. We saw it regardless of injuries. He has an idea of what he wants to do, and he's going to do it. Even if Teddy struggles to run the offense, and the WRs struggle to run his routes.

Shurmur is more adaptable. If Norv doesn't resign, would this team end up with more wins? I don't think so, considering the situation the team is at right now.


Some truth to this, although its overstated. Norv isn't just going to try to build the most effective offense for the moment, he's going to try to build and offense capable of dominating. We don't have anything close to the pieces for that with this OL and with Bridgewater out. I don't know much about Shurmur. Will his system fit better with this personnel? is he more adaptable? maybe. I don't like the direction this team is taking at this point. It feels more like the 90s and 00 teams floundering around for a way to win one game rather than building for a deeply quality organization that can compete every week, every season, year after year.

Trading a first rounder for a middling QB in an attempt to salvage this season was sign #1 that the Vikings are falling into old, unsuccessful patterns again.


Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:51 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
fiestavike wrote:
Some truth to this, although its overstated. Norv isn't just going to try to build the most effective offense for the moment, he's going to try to build and offense capable of dominating. We don't have anything close to the pieces for that with this OL and with Bridgewater out. I don't know much about Shurmur. Will his system fit better with this personnel? is he more adaptable? maybe. I don't like the direction this team is taking at this point. It feels more like the 90s and 00 teams floundering around for a way to win one game rather than building for a deeply quality organization that can compete every week, every season, year after year.

Trading a first rounder for a middling QB in an attempt to salvage this season was sign #1 that the Vikings are falling into old, unsuccessful patterns again.


They never really departed from them. :(


Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:00 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
Mothman wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
Some truth to this, although its overstated. Norv isn't just going to try to build the most effective offense for the moment, he's going to try to build and offense capable of dominating. We don't have anything close to the pieces for that with this OL and with Bridgewater out. I don't know much about Shurmur. Will his system fit better with this personnel? is he more adaptable? maybe. I don't like the direction this team is taking at this point. It feels more like the 90s and 00 teams floundering around for a way to win one game rather than building for a deeply quality organization that can compete every week, every season, year after year.

Trading a first rounder for a middling QB in an attempt to salvage this season was sign #1 that the Vikings are falling into old, unsuccessful patterns again.


They never really departed from them. :(


You might be right. I thought there were a lot of indications that they were trending in a positive direction. Hopefully that trade was a "mistake" rather than an indication of things to come...It would have made a lot more sense to give that pick up for a player who might solve one of our Tackle positions longterm rather than Bradford.


Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:10 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
i can understand the sentiment for the pick traded for Sam. i gotta ask though, what lineman was available that would be a franchise type guy at that point and worth the pick?
How can the team build for the future in the middle of the season?
If TB never plays another down and Bradford continues to play as well as he has,(i know fiesta doesn't much care for Sam's play in the pocket) won't that trade pan out for the vikes?
Seems to me, the time to make hay on the o-line was during the draft and/or getting one of those guys the raiders got.
I just don't see the Bradford trade as a bad omen....this still has a long way to go before it can be fully tallied up IMO...unless he get's broken before then. That has to be a serious concern unfortunately.


Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:20 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
If this off season the vikes used EVERY draft pick on OL and ended up with 4-5 new good starters, I would be fine with it. We have no gaping holes in our team except for the OL. Our current QB is "ok", our current receivers are OK and would be better if they had a line capable of buying enough time for them to complete a damn route. Our Defense is very good. Kickers...blah but not worth wasting a good draft on it. RB...well these guys are playing with NO blocking. Everything starts with our Line....nothing will be fixed till that gets done.


Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:42 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
chicagopurple wrote:
If this off season the vikes used EVERY draft pick on OL and ended up with 4-5 new good starters, I would be fine with it. We have no gaping holes in our team except for the OL. Our current QB is "ok", our current receivers are OK and would be better if they had a line capable of buying enough time for them to complete a damn route. Our Defense is very good. Kickers...blah but not worth wasting a good draft on it. RB...well these guys are playing with NO blocking. Everything starts with our Line....nothing will be fixed till that gets done.

i generally agree with your sentiment. i do believe the wr group is better than ok though. i think the pattern of having to keep rudolph in as a blocker, which he's been awful at lately, chokes off a big weapon in the pass game. it seems shurmur uses him far less than norv did from my vantage. but if the line were stable rudy would be having more positive impact than the negative one we saw last game


Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:55 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
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i can understand the sentiment for the pick traded for Sam. i gotta ask though, what lineman was available that would be a franchise type guy at that point and worth the pick?


My point was that if they were going to surrender a 1st round pick (not to mention the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th that's going with it) it would have been wiser to target an OL who could help going forward, not just a 1 or 2 year bandaid. It would also be wiser not to trade those assets in the first place.


Nunin wrote:
chicagopurple wrote:
If this off season the vikes used EVERY draft pick on OL and ended up with 4-5 new good starters, I would be fine with it. We have no gaping holes in our team except for the OL. Our current QB is "ok", our current receivers are OK and would be better if they had a line capable of buying enough time for them to complete a damn route. Our Defense is very good. Kickers...blah but not worth wasting a good draft on it. RB...well these guys are playing with NO blocking. Everything starts with our Line....nothing will be fixed till that gets done.

i generally agree with your sentiment. i do believe the wr group is better than ok though. i think the pattern of having to keep rudolph in as a blocker, which he's been awful at lately, chokes off a big weapon in the pass game. it seems shurmur uses him far less than norv did from my vantage. but if the line were stable rudy would be having more positive impact than the negative one we saw last game


OL and QB are killing this team. They are reasonably strong at every other position.


Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:41 am
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
fiestavike wrote:
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i can understand the sentiment for the pick traded for Sam. i gotta ask though, what lineman was available that would be a franchise type guy at that point and worth the pick?


My point was that if they were going to surrender a 1st round pick (not to mention the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th that's going with it) it would have been wiser to target an OL who could help going forward, not just a 1 or 2 year bandaid. It would also be wiser not to trade those assets in the first place.




yeah, totally understood your point...I was just wondering if there was an OL you had in mind at that time who fit the bill. I could see the wisdom in getting that O-line guy and just sucking it up for a season with Hill/hiencke....but in truth maybe they felt Kalil and whatever that guys name is who played RT (smith?) were adequate.

As far as it being wiser not to trade to assets in the first place? i agree....i think they flinched a little.....but i also think it still has more than a punchers chance of working out very well too.


Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:10 pm
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Post Re: Where the Vikings' run game is broken
I don't get this assumption we HAVE a QB without Bradford? :confused:

By all accounts it is UNLIKELY that Teddy will ever play a down again, as a Teddy fan I say that. Whats the point in selling the bank for a an Olineman when you are right back to shots in the dark for a QB? :confused:

With Bradford you have an established, youngish, QB who has proven in real games that he does have a high ceiling. With even an AVERAGE Oline he would be mincing teams right now. And, thats is, by all accounts, what we thought we would have when we traded for him, an average, if not slightly below average Oline. Not the utter dumpster fire it has ended up being :puke: I know that people will say "I KNEW this was going to be an issue from the start!" etc etc. But that fact is you didnt, no one did. by all the metrics they were going to do okayish. You don't have the resources to prepare for the worst case scenario at every position after having to do so at QB.

Basically, with Bradford and this Defense, you have 4-5 years to find a passable Oline (I would say we are 1/5th to MAYBE 2/5ths of the way there) before Bradford and the D start to get long in the tooth. I like those odds a heck of a lot better than having 3/5ths of an oline and potentially needing to play a broken Teddy or hoping we hit on a QB draft pick in two years to have him ready in this window.


Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:27 pm
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