Desperately seeking Zim

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Mothman
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spo ... ne-crisis/

Here is a quote from a WAPO article on the same topic:

"The 2015 NFL draft produced 13 offensive linemen in the first two rounds, with seven selected in the first round. Yet, only two have cracked their team’s starting lineup – Washington G Brandon Scherff and New York Giants LT Ereck Flowers. Teams were desperate for offensive line help heading into 2015 but, based on my draft grades last year, there wasn’t much there in the way of immediate help. It was well known that Scherff would transition to guard and has done so in Washington, but Flowers has surprised as he’s remained at left tackle in New York. I didn’t think he would survive at that spot. The lack of a true star left tackle was one reason why I really wasn’t impressed with the 2015 draft class. It was more of a futures sort of draft than one that provided immediate dividends."

To me this says two things: We are not alone and our issues are not going away anytime soon. it also might explain why they picked Treadwell over OL in the early rounds. Maybe they didn't have confidence in getting value out of the pick if they went OL? Again, who knows?
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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PacificNorseWest wrote: Injuries almost need to be expected. I think the resignation stems from the fact that he's realizing the team did not do nearly enough in the offseason to address the situation. The reality of it all seems to have caught up to him.
You expect some, but the list is staggering:

Starting LT
Starting RT
Mike Harris (potential starting RG)
Starting QB
Starting RB

Stop for a moment here, that is 5 out of 11 offensive players

On ST Scherels has been missing time
On D
Sharrif Floyd
Sandejo has missed time
Kendricks is missing time
Rhodes missed time

That is a big list
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halfgiz
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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Here's what I have trouble understanding. Sirles has had a decent year so far.
It was Clemmings at LT and Sirles at RT and everybody said Sirles was an improvement at RT.
Insert Long at LT and they bench Sirles and play Clemmings...is there something I'm missing?

Clemmings has the lowest rating PFF a tackle has had in 10 years and we still play him.
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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Sirles has yet to be a consistent starter vs. Clemmings having a whole season of tape which DC's can use to figure out how to beat him. Just because Sirles did well in quick stints doesn't mean he'll be great week to week when the Defenses get tape on him and can start planning how to beat him. It might be that Clemmings is the lesser of two evil. We'll never know...


The idea that they would start the worse of two RT is a bit ridiculous when you think about it. Are the coaches really so arrogant as to put their QB in harms way just to prove a point of about Clemmings vs. Sirles. (And prove it to whom?) That seems silly to me, they'd all be up crap creek without a paddle if Hill became the starter and they obviously all know that.
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Mothman
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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mansquatch wrote:Sirles has yet to be a consistent starter vs. Clemmings having a whole season of tape which DC's can use to figure out how to beat him. Just because Sirles did well in quick stints doesn't mean he'll be great week to week when the Defenses get tape on him and can start planning how to beat him. It might be that Clemmings is the lesser of two evil. We'll never know...


The idea that they would start the worse of two RT is a bit ridiculous when you think about it. Are the coaches really so arrogant as to put their QB in harms way just to prove a point of about Clemmings vs. Sirles. (And prove it to whom?) That seems silly to me, they'd all be up crap creek without a paddle if Hill became the starter and they obviously all know that.

I don't think it's ridiculous. It doesn't necessarily require arrogance (although this coaching staff has shown they can be arrogant), just questionable judgment and we've seen plenty of that from the Vikings coaching staff too. For example, signing Jake Long and then immediately playing him against the Eagles on an important set of downs in scoring territory. He promptly screwed up, got beat and the Vikes turned the ball over.

They doggedly stuck with Clemmings all season last year even though he awful. They made him the primary backup at LT this year, even though he was terrible at right tackle last year. It's not hard to believe they might be playing him ahead of a better choice, although I admit, I don't know if Sirles is a better choice.
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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Jim that is all true, but WHAT evidence is there that Sirles will suddenly be a silver bullet and better than Clemmings? He has had some OK performances as a backup, but he has never been in a situation where the opposition has game planned for him. So again, why is he suddenly a viable solution? Sounds to me like he is viable because his name isn't TJ Clemmings.

As I said before, the idea that they are just being arrogant or stupid about it is absurd. If Bradford goes done they are totally done for the season. (If they are not already) and they know that. So the idea that they'd risk it on a player like Clemmings without good reason is silly.
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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Too many ways to speculate what exactly he meant, but I just hope going back to his way is for the better and he never goes back to the other way again.
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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mansquatch wrote:Jim that is all true, but WHAT evidence is there that Sirles will suddenly be a silver bullet and better than Clemmings?
I just wrote "I don't know if Sirles is a better choice" so why would you ask me that question? ;)
He has had some OK performances as a backup, but he has never been in a situation where the opposition has game planned for him. So again, why is he suddenly a viable solution? Sounds to me like he is viable because his name isn't TJ Clemmings.
Sirles may not be a viable solution but I don't think he's necessarily the "worse of two RT" as you described him above or that it's ridiculous for Haflgiz to suggest he might be better than Clemmings. We have ample evidence that Clemmings is a bad player and yet the Vikings have been putting him on the field for a season and a half now. Maybe Sirles can be a little better if given the chance. Maybe not but since what they continue doing isn't working...
As I said before, the idea that they are just being arrogant or stupid about it is absurd. If Bradford goes done they are totally done for the season.
Clemmings is helping to prevent that? He's a turnstile.

I just don't think it's absurd to suggest this coaching staff is making mistakes in judgment, especially on the offensive side of the ball. I heard the same thing in regard to Patterson all last year and then, lo and behold, he gets on the field more this year and shows he can actually contribute after all! I'm sorry but Mike Zimmer doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore when it comes to offensive personnel decisions. Other than Peterson's league-leading rushing performance last year, the Zimmer era has basically been a disaster for the offense so it seems reasonable to question his judgment, and that of the coaches he's empowered, when it comes to offensive personnel. The running game is on track to be the worst of the modern era. They spent most of last year flirting with a team record for fewest TD passes in a season. The offense is ranked dead last in the league, down from an impressive 29th in the league in 2015 and 27th in 2014.

If anything, at this point it might be more absurd to suggest the Vikes actually know what they're doing on the offensive side of the ball. :tongue:
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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If you suggest that you replace Clemmings with Sirles that you are implying that you think that Sirles is better than Clemmings. You don't need to state it directly, if you are advocating that position then you are de facto making the claim. Unless you are advocating that they replace a bad player with a worse player in which case you are a Packer Mole and should be drawn and quartered immediately. :spanking:

It's fine if you want to advocate that, but my challenge still stands. WHY do you think he is better? WHAT has he done to justify that position? As I said before, I still think taking this view is based on his name not being TJ Clemmings. For the record, I think TJ Clemmings is awful, but that doesn't mean Sirles is better. Sirles might be worse.

It isn't going to matter, though. There is no way they get this line better with three Tackles on IR and the interior unable to generate any push against a variety of defensive fronts including rather pedestrian units such as the Lions. What a shame, if there was ever a year for a team in the mold of what the Vikings were supposed to be to make a run it was this season. Right now it looks like another SEA Superbowl unless one of the two Offensive Juggernauts can overcome their defense.
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by chicagopurple »

Sirles is not good...he is just better then the rest of our sad line. In relation to the rest of the NFL Sirles is still very much subpar.
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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mansquatch wrote:If you suggest that you replace Clemmings with Sirles that you are implying that you think that Sirles is better than Clemmings. You don't need to state it directly, if you are advocating that position then you are de facto making the claim.


I get what you're saying but I thought the implication was simply that Sirles might play better.
It's fine if you want to advocate that, but my challenge still stands. WHY do you think he is better? WHAT has he done to justify that position?
I never said he was better nor did I say they should replace Clemmings with Sirles. My point was simply that I don't believe it was ridiculous for Halfgiz to post what he did. What I am advocating here is that he didn't ask a ridiculous question, not that Sirles is definitively better than Clemmings. I think the question was reasonable.
It isn't going to matter, though. There is no way they get this line better with three Tackles on IR and the interior unable to generate any push against a variety of defensive fronts including rather pedestrian units such as the Lions. What a shame, if there was ever a year for a team in the mold of what the Vikings were supposed to be to make a run it was this season. Right now it looks like another SEA Superbowl unless one of the two Offensive Juggernauts can overcome their defense.
I agree that Sirles isn't the secret ingredient that's going make the line a winner.

I think a Vikings Super Bowl was a serious long shot this year even with healthy tackles. Frankly, I feel the organization is caught up in a painfully frustrating cycle and it may take drastic changes to truly get it on track and keep it there. I'm fed up with my favorite team. :(
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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^ Do you really think it's that dire though? From your response here and in the QB sneak thread, you make it sound like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. I don't believe the first 5 weeks was just a mirage. They have great pieces everywhere, except where they're really hurting at right now with the offensive line. It's a glaring issue, but it's not complete doomsday scenario for this teams future potential.
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

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PacificNorseWest wrote:^ Do you really think it's that dire though? From your response here and in the QB sneak thread, you make it sound like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. I don't believe the first 5 weeks was just a mirage. They have great pieces everywhere, except where they're really hurting at right now with the offensive line. It's a glaring issue, but it's not complete doomsday scenario for this teams future potential.
I don't think their situation is so dire they can't still have a winning season this year... or next year for that matter. If the light at the end of the tunnel is making a playoff appearance here and there, I see that light. I just think the team is dysfunctional and I've reached the conclusion that Rick Spielman is the wrong GM for the job. I've heard and considered many arguments to the contrary and I've tried to keep an open mind but I've lost all confidence that he has what it takes to build a Super Bowl-winning team. It's been a decade of similar mistakes, wildly unbalanced teams, weak passing games, instability at QB and disappointment. I've seen enough.

Of course, I don't think he's going anywhere, regardless of how this season turns out but I have a feeling we won't see a Super Bowl win for the Vikings with Spielman as GM, which is why I said drastic change may be in order to break the cycle I'm talking about. Replacing a GM is a pretty drastic move and it's usually followed by other significant changes.

This isn't a reaction to the 4 game losing streak or even this season. It's just a conclusion I've reluctantly reached after a decade of Slick Rick.

If they win it all this year, I'll obviously have to eat a heaping helping of crow but hey, if they win it all this season, that will go down easy.

Apologies to all for my cynicism. This is just how I feel. :(
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by halfgiz »

Mothman wrote:
Sirles may not be a viable solution but I don't think he's necessarily the "worse of two RT" as you described him above or that it's ridiculous for Haflgiz to suggest he might be better than Clemmings. We have ample evidence that Clemmings is a bad player and yet the Vikings have been putting him on the field for a season and a half now. Maybe Sirles can be a little better if given the chance. Maybe not but since what they continue doing isn't working...

All in all, I recognize how much work TJ needs...and Sirles needs get some game experience , however, I think Clemmings at LT and Sirles at RT is the best distribution of skill at this point.
Hopefully our new OT will have better skills than Clemmings.
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