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 Desperately seeking Zim 
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Post Desperately seeking Zim
Interesting article; comparative analysis of Zimmer's post-game pressers:

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2016/11/14 ... he-vikings

I noticed how listless his last one was and it seemed off to me too. He seemed sad and beat down and not his usual fiery self. I hope he hasn't run out of fire; his team needs some leadership right about now.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:43 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
What kind of pills he taking for his eye? He seems way too subdued for my liking.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:46 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Quote:
His team lost three more games and an offensive coordinator and, instead of fiery, red-faced Zim, we have Mild-Mannered Mike. Mike talks about the positives in the losses, compliments his team's fight, and speaks in almost a whisper. It is dangerously similar to what we got from Leslie Frazier in 2013.


... and it's equally unimportant, at least in my opinion.

I don't think Zimmer was having success because he came off "tough" in post-game press conferences and the team isn't struggling now because he's supposedly become "Mild-mannered Mike". Frazier's team didn't struggle in 2013 because of his demeanor either. They struggled because they had personnel and coaching problems, just like the 2016 Vikings.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:34 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Mothman wrote:
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His team lost three more games and an offensive coordinator and, instead of fiery, red-faced Zim, we have Mild-Mannered Mike. Mike talks about the positives in the losses, compliments his team's fight, and speaks in almost a whisper. It is dangerously similar to what we got from Leslie Frazier in 2013.


... and it's equally unimportant, at least in my opinion.

I don't think Zimmer wasn't having success because he came off "tough" in post-game press conferences and the team isn't struggling now because he's supposedly become "Mild-mannered Mike". Frazier's team didn't struggle in 2013 because of his demeanor either. They struggled because they had personnel and coaching problems, just like the 2016 Vikings.



I think you have the arrow of causation pointing in the wrong direction, Jim.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:12 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
I think there really has to be a lot going on behind the scenes. Be interesting to hear why Norv abruptly resigned.
A Paul Harvey the rest of the story.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:33 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Texas Vike wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Quote:
His team lost three more games and an offensive coordinator and, instead of fiery, red-faced Zim, we have Mild-Mannered Mike. Mike talks about the positives in the losses, compliments his team's fight, and speaks in almost a whisper. It is dangerously similar to what we got from Leslie Frazier in 2013.


... and it's equally unimportant, at least in my opinion.

I don't think Zimmer wasn't having success because he came off "tough" in post-game press conferences and the team isn't struggling now because he's supposedly become "Mild-mannered Mike". Frazier's team didn't struggle in 2013 because of his demeanor either. They struggled because they had personnel and coaching problems, just like the 2016 Vikings.



I think you have the arrow of causation pointing in the wrong direction, Jim.


Oops!

That was supposed to read "I don't think Zimmer WAS having success...". :)


Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:33 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Mothman wrote:
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His team lost three more games and an offensive coordinator and, instead of fiery, red-faced Zim, we have Mild-Mannered Mike. Mike talks about the positives in the losses, compliments his team's fight, and speaks in almost a whisper. It is dangerously similar to what we got from Leslie Frazier in 2013.


... and it's equally unimportant, at least in my opinion.

I don't think Zimmer was having success because he came off "tough" in post-game press conferences and the team isn't struggling now because he's supposedly become "Mild-mannered Mike". Frazier's team didn't struggle in 2013 because of his demeanor either. They struggled because they had personnel and coaching problems, just like the 2016 Vikings.


Demeanor is a part of coaching and communication in general. To dismiss it's importance suggests there are things about communication that you just don't understand. None of us can know if and how the coach's demeanor affects the players but its a valid area for speculation because we know beyond any doubt is that demeanor is an important part of communication.

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Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:07 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Purple Martin wrote:
Demeanor is a part of coaching and communication in general. To dismiss it's importance suggests there are things about communication that you just don't understand.


I understand it just fine but press conference demeanor is not the same thing as actual coaching demeanor (ie: the coach's behavior when he's with his team, coaching). The latter is definitely important. The former is pretty trivial in terms of team performance.

Quote:
None of us can know if and how the coach's demeanor affects the players but its a valid area for speculation because we know beyond any doubt is that demeanor is an important part of communication.


Sure, but speculation is all it is... we don't know what the coach's demeanor is with the team. Whether he's a scenery-chewing harda## or "Mild-mannered Mike" in press conferences barely matters except to fans (and perhaps the media). That's what the complaint was with Frazier and that's what this article is complaining about with Zimmer, which is why I specifically referred to post-game press conferences in the comment to which you replied.

Fans love a tough, demonstrative coach. That's one of the reasons Vikes fans went ga-ga over Zimmer in the first place. They disliked Frazier's mild Dungy-like manner and they wanted a "real" coach. However, Zimmer could rant and rave in fiery fashion in post-game press conferences and it won't make one player block better or improve the team's pathetic yards-per-carry average because how he addresses the media after games isn't the source of those problems.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:03 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
My point upthread was that Zimmer seemed completely dejected (think Job from the Old Testament, a guy who has been bludgeoned by bad fortune over and over) BECAUSE of the on field play and as a true reflection of how he's currently feeling. His pressers are not going to cause his players to play better or worse, but I think it's valid to gauge Zimmer's mental / emotional condition based on them.

Unlike the author of the article, I don't think it necessarily reflects a lasting condition. I'm hoping that Zimmer has a bit more bounce in his step and optimism during the week than he did right after his 4th defeat in a row, having lost yet another lineman.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:07 am
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Texas Vike wrote:
My point upthread was that Zimmer seemed completely dejected (think Job from the Old Testament, a guy who has been bludgeoned by bad fortune over and over) BECAUSE of the on field play and as a true reflection of how he's currently feeling. His pressers are not going to cause his players to play better or worse, but I think it's valid to gauge Zimmer's mental / emotional condition based on them.


I think that's valid too. My objection wasn't to your point but to what I perceived as the central point of the article.

Quote:
Unlike the author of the article, I don't think it necessarily reflects a lasting condition. I'm hoping that Zimmer has a bit more bounce in his step and optimism during the week than he did right after his 4th defeat in a row, having lost yet another lineman.


I'm guessing he does. He doesn't strike me as a man ready to surrender after a 4 game losing streak and as you're pointing out, it's understandable if he was feeling a bit dejected after the Washington game. I also imagine he may feel excoriating his team for their recent failings isn't the direction to go right now since the players may be somewhat dejected too. Piling on when people are down isn't necessarily a good motivational tactic.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:21 am
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Acceptance is one of the stages of Grieving...Zim is just fully realizing that he does NOT have a playoff caliber team....HE is realizing that a stout Defense is NOT enough to carry you when you have no OL.

Its not fatigue, he's resigning himself to a futile season.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:16 am
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
I think he is resigning himself to the fact that you can't overcome the amount of guys they have on IR.

Something worthy of evaluation:

It is now three straight seasons where this team has had multiple OL injuries. (The entire Zimmer era) That is starting to look less like bad luck and more like a pattern. Is that a personnel issue or a training issue? They canned their strength and conditioning guy a few years ago due to the squad experiencing multiple pectoral muscle tears. Maybe there is more to this than just bad personnel moves by the GM? I think if Kalil and Smith had stayed healthy we would not be 5-4, but that is certainly debatable.

We are not the only team suffering bad OL play. Seattle has been experiencing it as well, but they've been able to coach their guys up where we've had a 3 (!!!) tackles go to IR. How sad is it that in the past two years the most durable tackle on the team has been TJ Clemmings. UGH!

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Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:12 am
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
mansquatch wrote:
I think he is resigning himself to the fact that you can't overcome the amount of guys they have on IR.

Something worthy of evaluation:

It is now three straight seasons where this team has had multiple OL injuries. (The entire Zimmer era) That is starting to look less like bad luck and more like a pattern. Is that a personnel issue or a training issue?


It might be both. Everybody's body is different and for some reason, there are athletes who seem more susceptible to injury than others. It's also possible that some aspect of their training regimen has led to an unusual number of OL injuries. It's hard to say but at some point, if a team keeps fielding injury-prone players, it can't be considered too surprising when they keep getting hurt. For example, nobody should be surprised that Kalil and Long ended up being injured, although it is different for Kalil to be injured badly enough that he ended up on IR.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:49 am
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
I'm not offering excuses, I'm just pointing out the bodies on IR are extreme for this team, so it is a factor. Next man up is great and all, but realistically there are limits. If we'd had a flurry of injuries at WR we'd probably be in far better shape than having it at Tackle.

Here is an article, albeit old, on the issue NFL wide with college OL coming in. Note the comments about how even first round talent comes in as a project:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf ... /80918122/

There is little doubt that that Vikings have an issue in producing NFL ready OL. I doubt it is conclusive that this issue lies entirely on bad drafting or bad coaching. It could even be the CBA to some extent. There is far less time now that coaches in the league have to bring these guys up to speed. Kubiak in that article talks about how the focused on how fast a prospect could grasp the concepts, ie focusing on his intellect was their approach. Perhaps the Vikings are behind the times on this front? Is there a training / conditioning gap? Is it an inability to coach vs bad coaching? Or are our personnel choices just bad? I don't know. But I doubt it is one thing.

Another article with Pete Carrol griping about the same thing:

http://coachingsearch.com/article?a=Pet ... -a-problem

Maybe we are looking at this wrong. Maybe the issue is other clubs are "better" at converting these college prospects? Who knows?

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Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:29 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
mansquatch wrote:
I think he is resigning himself to the fact that you can't overcome the amount of guys they have on IR.



Injuries almost need to be expected. I think the resignation stems from the fact that he's realizing the team did not do nearly enough in the offseason to address the situation. The reality of it all seems to have caught up to him.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:32 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Mike Zimmer vows to get back to doing things “my way,” which implies plenty


Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:33 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spo ... ne-crisis/

Here is a quote from a WAPO article on the same topic:

"The 2015 NFL draft produced 13 offensive linemen in the first two rounds, with seven selected in the first round. Yet, only two have cracked their team’s starting lineup – Washington G Brandon Scherff and New York Giants LT Ereck Flowers. Teams were desperate for offensive line help heading into 2015 but, based on my draft grades last year, there wasn’t much there in the way of immediate help. It was well known that Scherff would transition to guard and has done so in Washington, but Flowers has surprised as he’s remained at left tackle in New York. I didn’t think he would survive at that spot. The lack of a true star left tackle was one reason why I really wasn’t impressed with the 2015 draft class. It was more of a futures sort of draft than one that provided immediate dividends."

To me this says two things: We are not alone and our issues are not going away anytime soon. it also might explain why they picked Treadwell over OL in the early rounds. Maybe they didn't have confidence in getting value out of the pick if they went OL? Again, who knows?

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Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:34 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
PacificNorseWest wrote:
mansquatch wrote:
I think he is resigning himself to the fact that you can't overcome the amount of guys they have on IR.



Injuries almost need to be expected. I think the resignation stems from the fact that he's realizing the team did not do nearly enough in the offseason to address the situation. The reality of it all seems to have caught up to him.


You expect some, but the list is staggering:

Starting LT
Starting RT
Mike Harris (potential starting RG)
Starting QB
Starting RB

Stop for a moment here, that is 5 out of 11 offensive players

On ST Scherels has been missing time
On D
Sharrif Floyd
Sandejo has missed time
Kendricks is missing time
Rhodes missed time

That is a big list

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Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:38 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Here's what I have trouble understanding. Sirles has had a decent year so far.
It was Clemmings at LT and Sirles at RT and everybody said Sirles was an improvement at RT.
Insert Long at LT and they bench Sirles and play Clemmings...is there something I'm missing?

Clemmings has the lowest rating PFF a tackle has had in 10 years and we still play him.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:43 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Sirles has yet to be a consistent starter vs. Clemmings having a whole season of tape which DC's can use to figure out how to beat him. Just because Sirles did well in quick stints doesn't mean he'll be great week to week when the Defenses get tape on him and can start planning how to beat him. It might be that Clemmings is the lesser of two evil. We'll never know...


The idea that they would start the worse of two RT is a bit ridiculous when you think about it. Are the coaches really so arrogant as to put their QB in harms way just to prove a point of about Clemmings vs. Sirles. (And prove it to whom?) That seems silly to me, they'd all be up crap creek without a paddle if Hill became the starter and they obviously all know that.

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Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:50 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
mansquatch wrote:
Sirles has yet to be a consistent starter vs. Clemmings having a whole season of tape which DC's can use to figure out how to beat him. Just because Sirles did well in quick stints doesn't mean he'll be great week to week when the Defenses get tape on him and can start planning how to beat him. It might be that Clemmings is the lesser of two evil. We'll never know...


The idea that they would start the worse of two RT is a bit ridiculous when you think about it. Are the coaches really so arrogant as to put their QB in harms way just to prove a point of about Clemmings vs. Sirles. (And prove it to whom?) That seems silly to me, they'd all be up crap creek without a paddle if Hill became the starter and they obviously all know that.



I don't think it's ridiculous. It doesn't necessarily require arrogance (although this coaching staff has shown they can be arrogant), just questionable judgment and we've seen plenty of that from the Vikings coaching staff too. For example, signing Jake Long and then immediately playing him against the Eagles on an important set of downs in scoring territory. He promptly screwed up, got beat and the Vikes turned the ball over.

They doggedly stuck with Clemmings all season last year even though he awful. They made him the primary backup at LT this year, even though he was terrible at right tackle last year. It's not hard to believe they might be playing him ahead of a better choice, although I admit, I don't know if Sirles is a better choice.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Jim that is all true, but WHAT evidence is there that Sirles will suddenly be a silver bullet and better than Clemmings? He has had some OK performances as a backup, but he has never been in a situation where the opposition has game planned for him. So again, why is he suddenly a viable solution? Sounds to me like he is viable because his name isn't TJ Clemmings.

As I said before, the idea that they are just being arrogant or stupid about it is absurd. If Bradford goes done they are totally done for the season. (If they are not already) and they know that. So the idea that they'd risk it on a player like Clemmings without good reason is silly.

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Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:06 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim


Too many ways to speculate what exactly he meant, but I just hope going back to his way is for the better and he never goes back to the other way again.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
mansquatch wrote:
Jim that is all true, but WHAT evidence is there that Sirles will suddenly be a silver bullet and better than Clemmings?


I just wrote "I don't know if Sirles is a better choice" so why would you ask me that question? ;)

Quote:
He has had some OK performances as a backup, but he has never been in a situation where the opposition has game planned for him. So again, why is he suddenly a viable solution? Sounds to me like he is viable because his name isn't TJ Clemmings.


Sirles may not be a viable solution but I don't think he's necessarily the "worse of two RT" as you described him above or that it's ridiculous for Haflgiz to suggest he might be better than Clemmings. We have ample evidence that Clemmings is a bad player and yet the Vikings have been putting him on the field for a season and a half now. Maybe Sirles can be a little better if given the chance. Maybe not but since what they continue doing isn't working...

Quote:
As I said before, the idea that they are just being arrogant or stupid about it is absurd. If Bradford goes done they are totally done for the season.


Clemmings is helping to prevent that? He's a turnstile.

I just don't think it's absurd to suggest this coaching staff is making mistakes in judgment, especially on the offensive side of the ball. I heard the same thing in regard to Patterson all last year and then, lo and behold, he gets on the field more this year and shows he can actually contribute after all! I'm sorry but Mike Zimmer doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore when it comes to offensive personnel decisions. Other than Peterson's league-leading rushing performance last year, the Zimmer era has basically been a disaster for the offense so it seems reasonable to question his judgment, and that of the coaches he's empowered, when it comes to offensive personnel. The running game is on track to be the worst of the modern era. They spent most of last year flirting with a team record for fewest TD passes in a season. The offense is ranked dead last in the league, down from an impressive 29th in the league in 2015 and 27th in 2014.

If anything, at this point it might be more absurd to suggest the Vikes actually know what they're doing on the offensive side of the ball. :tongue:


Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:24 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
If you suggest that you replace Clemmings with Sirles that you are implying that you think that Sirles is better than Clemmings. You don't need to state it directly, if you are advocating that position then you are de facto making the claim. Unless you are advocating that they replace a bad player with a worse player in which case you are a Packer Mole and should be drawn and quartered immediately. :spanking:

It's fine if you want to advocate that, but my challenge still stands. WHY do you think he is better? WHAT has he done to justify that position? As I said before, I still think taking this view is based on his name not being TJ Clemmings. For the record, I think TJ Clemmings is awful, but that doesn't mean Sirles is better. Sirles might be worse.

It isn't going to matter, though. There is no way they get this line better with three Tackles on IR and the interior unable to generate any push against a variety of defensive fronts including rather pedestrian units such as the Lions. What a shame, if there was ever a year for a team in the mold of what the Vikings were supposed to be to make a run it was this season. Right now it looks like another SEA Superbowl unless one of the two Offensive Juggernauts can overcome their defense.

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Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:46 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Sirles is not good...he is just better then the rest of our sad line. In relation to the rest of the NFL Sirles is still very much subpar.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:55 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
mansquatch wrote:
If you suggest that you replace Clemmings with Sirles that you are implying that you think that Sirles is better than Clemmings. You don't need to state it directly, if you are advocating that position then you are de facto making the claim.


I get what you're saying but I thought the implication was simply that Sirles might play better.

Quote:
It's fine if you want to advocate that, but my challenge still stands. WHY do you think he is better? WHAT has he done to justify that position?


I never said he was better nor did I say they should replace Clemmings with Sirles. My point was simply that I don't believe it was ridiculous for Halfgiz to post what he did. What I am advocating here is that he didn't ask a ridiculous question, not that Sirles is definitively better than Clemmings. I think the question was reasonable.

Quote:
It isn't going to matter, though. There is no way they get this line better with three Tackles on IR and the interior unable to generate any push against a variety of defensive fronts including rather pedestrian units such as the Lions. What a shame, if there was ever a year for a team in the mold of what the Vikings were supposed to be to make a run it was this season. Right now it looks like another SEA Superbowl unless one of the two Offensive Juggernauts can overcome their defense.


I agree that Sirles isn't the secret ingredient that's going make the line a winner.

I think a Vikings Super Bowl was a serious long shot this year even with healthy tackles. Frankly, I feel the organization is caught up in a painfully frustrating cycle and it may take drastic changes to truly get it on track and keep it there. I'm fed up with my favorite team. :(


Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:24 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
^ Do you really think it's that dire though? From your response here and in the QB sneak thread, you make it sound like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. I don't believe the first 5 weeks was just a mirage. They have great pieces everywhere, except where they're really hurting at right now with the offensive line. It's a glaring issue, but it's not complete doomsday scenario for this teams future potential.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:38 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
PacificNorseWest wrote:
^ Do you really think it's that dire though? From your response here and in the QB sneak thread, you make it sound like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. I don't believe the first 5 weeks was just a mirage. They have great pieces everywhere, except where they're really hurting at right now with the offensive line. It's a glaring issue, but it's not complete doomsday scenario for this teams future potential.


I don't think their situation is so dire they can't still have a winning season this year... or next year for that matter. If the light at the end of the tunnel is making a playoff appearance here and there, I see that light. I just think the team is dysfunctional and I've reached the conclusion that Rick Spielman is the wrong GM for the job. I've heard and considered many arguments to the contrary and I've tried to keep an open mind but I've lost all confidence that he has what it takes to build a Super Bowl-winning team. It's been a decade of similar mistakes, wildly unbalanced teams, weak passing games, instability at QB and disappointment. I've seen enough.

Of course, I don't think he's going anywhere, regardless of how this season turns out but I have a feeling we won't see a Super Bowl win for the Vikings with Spielman as GM, which is why I said drastic change may be in order to break the cycle I'm talking about. Replacing a GM is a pretty drastic move and it's usually followed by other significant changes.

This isn't a reaction to the 4 game losing streak or even this season. It's just a conclusion I've reluctantly reached after a decade of Slick Rick.

If they win it all this year, I'll obviously have to eat a heaping helping of crow but hey, if they win it all this season, that will go down easy.

Apologies to all for my cynicism. This is just how I feel. :(


Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:04 pm
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Post Re: Desperately seeking Zim
Mothman wrote:

Sirles may not be a viable solution but I don't think he's necessarily the "worse of two RT" as you described him above or that it's ridiculous for Haflgiz to suggest he might be better than Clemmings. We have ample evidence that Clemmings is a bad player and yet the Vikings have been putting him on the field for a season and a half now. Maybe Sirles can be a little better if given the chance. Maybe not but since what they continue doing isn't working...



All in all, I recognize how much work TJ needs...and Sirles needs get some game experience , however, I think Clemmings at LT and Sirles at RT is the best distribution of skill at this point.
Hopefully our new OT will have better skills than Clemmings.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:04 pm
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