Desperately seeking Zim

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Texas Vike
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Desperately seeking Zim

Post by Texas Vike » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:43 pm

Interesting article; comparative analysis of Zimmer's post-game pressers:

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2016/11/14 ... he-vikings

I noticed how listless his last one was and it seemed off to me too. He seemed sad and beat down and not his usual fiery self. I hope he hasn't run out of fire; his team needs some leadership right about now.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by PacificNorseWest » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:46 pm

What kind of pills he taking for his eye? He seems way too subdued for my liking.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by Mothman » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:34 pm

His team lost three more games and an offensive coordinator and, instead of fiery, red-faced Zim, we have Mild-Mannered Mike. Mike talks about the positives in the losses, compliments his team's fight, and speaks in almost a whisper. It is dangerously similar to what we got from Leslie Frazier in 2013.
... and it's equally unimportant, at least in my opinion.

I don't think Zimmer was having success because he came off "tough" in post-game press conferences and the team isn't struggling now because he's supposedly become "Mild-mannered Mike". Frazier's team didn't struggle in 2013 because of his demeanor either. They struggled because they had personnel and coaching problems, just like the 2016 Vikings.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by Texas Vike » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:12 pm

Mothman wrote: ... and it's equally unimportant, at least in my opinion.

I don't think Zimmer wasn't having success because he came off "tough" in post-game press conferences and the team isn't struggling now because he's supposedly become "Mild-mannered Mike". Frazier's team didn't struggle in 2013 because of his demeanor either. They struggled because they had personnel and coaching problems, just like the 2016 Vikings.

I think you have the arrow of causation pointing in the wrong direction, Jim.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by halfgiz » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:33 pm

I think there really has to be a lot going on behind the scenes. Be interesting to hear why Norv abruptly resigned.
A Paul Harvey the rest of the story.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by Mothman » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:33 pm

Texas Vike wrote:
I think you have the arrow of causation pointing in the wrong direction, Jim.
Oops!

That was supposed to read "I don't think Zimmer WAS having success...". :)

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by Purple Martin » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:07 pm

Mothman wrote: ... and it's equally unimportant, at least in my opinion.

I don't think Zimmer was having success because he came off "tough" in post-game press conferences and the team isn't struggling now because he's supposedly become "Mild-mannered Mike". Frazier's team didn't struggle in 2013 because of his demeanor either. They struggled because they had personnel and coaching problems, just like the 2016 Vikings.
Demeanor is a part of coaching and communication in general. To dismiss it's importance suggests there are things about communication that you just don't understand. None of us can know if and how the coach's demeanor affects the players but its a valid area for speculation because we know beyond any doubt is that demeanor is an important part of communication.
Mothman wrote:... a good completion percentage in a performance like that is like putting lipstick on a pig.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by Mothman » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:03 pm

Purple Martin wrote:Demeanor is a part of coaching and communication in general. To dismiss it's importance suggests there are things about communication that you just don't understand.
I understand it just fine but press conference demeanor is not the same thing as actual coaching demeanor (ie: the coach's behavior when he's with his team, coaching). The latter is definitely important. The former is pretty trivial in terms of team performance.
None of us can know if and how the coach's demeanor affects the players but its a valid area for speculation because we know beyond any doubt is that demeanor is an important part of communication.
Sure, but speculation is all it is... we don't know what the coach's demeanor is with the team. Whether he's a scenery-chewing harda## or "Mild-mannered Mike" in press conferences barely matters except to fans (and perhaps the media). That's what the complaint was with Frazier and that's what this article is complaining about with Zimmer, which is why I specifically referred to post-game press conferences in the comment to which you replied.

Fans love a tough, demonstrative coach. That's one of the reasons Vikes fans went ga-ga over Zimmer in the first place. They disliked Frazier's mild Dungy-like manner and they wanted a "real" coach. However, Zimmer could rant and rave in fiery fashion in post-game press conferences and it won't make one player block better or improve the team's pathetic yards-per-carry average because how he addresses the media after games isn't the source of those problems.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by Texas Vike » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:07 am

My point upthread was that Zimmer seemed completely dejected (think Job from the Old Testament, a guy who has been bludgeoned by bad fortune over and over) BECAUSE of the on field play and as a true reflection of how he's currently feeling. His pressers are not going to cause his players to play better or worse, but I think it's valid to gauge Zimmer's mental / emotional condition based on them.

Unlike the author of the article, I don't think it necessarily reflects a lasting condition. I'm hoping that Zimmer has a bit more bounce in his step and optimism during the week than he did right after his 4th defeat in a row, having lost yet another lineman.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by Mothman » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:21 am

Texas Vike wrote:My point upthread was that Zimmer seemed completely dejected (think Job from the Old Testament, a guy who has been bludgeoned by bad fortune over and over) BECAUSE of the on field play and as a true reflection of how he's currently feeling. His pressers are not going to cause his players to play better or worse, but I think it's valid to gauge Zimmer's mental / emotional condition based on them.


I think that's valid too. My objection wasn't to your point but to what I perceived as the central point of the article.
Unlike the author of the article, I don't think it necessarily reflects a lasting condition. I'm hoping that Zimmer has a bit more bounce in his step and optimism during the week than he did right after his 4th defeat in a row, having lost yet another lineman.
I'm guessing he does. He doesn't strike me as a man ready to surrender after a 4 game losing streak and as you're pointing out, it's understandable if he was feeling a bit dejected after the Washington game. I also imagine he may feel excoriating his team for their recent failings isn't the direction to go right now since the players may be somewhat dejected too. Piling on when people are down isn't necessarily a good motivational tactic.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by chicagopurple » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:16 am

Acceptance is one of the stages of Grieving...Zim is just fully realizing that he does NOT have a playoff caliber team....HE is realizing that a stout Defense is NOT enough to carry you when you have no OL.

Its not fatigue, he's resigning himself to a futile season.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by mansquatch » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:12 am

I think he is resigning himself to the fact that you can't overcome the amount of guys they have on IR.

Something worthy of evaluation:

It is now three straight seasons where this team has had multiple OL injuries. (The entire Zimmer era) That is starting to look less like bad luck and more like a pattern. Is that a personnel issue or a training issue? They canned their strength and conditioning guy a few years ago due to the squad experiencing multiple pectoral muscle tears. Maybe there is more to this than just bad personnel moves by the GM? I think if Kalil and Smith had stayed healthy we would not be 5-4, but that is certainly debatable.

We are not the only team suffering bad OL play. Seattle has been experiencing it as well, but they've been able to coach their guys up where we've had a 3 (!!!) tackles go to IR. How sad is it that in the past two years the most durable tackle on the team has been TJ Clemmings. UGH!
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by Mothman » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:49 am

mansquatch wrote:I think he is resigning himself to the fact that you can't overcome the amount of guys they have on IR.

Something worthy of evaluation:

It is now three straight seasons where this team has had multiple OL injuries. (The entire Zimmer era) That is starting to look less like bad luck and more like a pattern. Is that a personnel issue or a training issue?


It might be both. Everybody's body is different and for some reason, there are athletes who seem more susceptible to injury than others. It's also possible that some aspect of their training regimen has led to an unusual number of OL injuries. It's hard to say but at some point, if a team keeps fielding injury-prone players, it can't be considered too surprising when they keep getting hurt. For example, nobody should be surprised that Kalil and Long ended up being injured, although it is different for Kalil to be injured badly enough that he ended up on IR.

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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by mansquatch » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:29 pm

I'm not offering excuses, I'm just pointing out the bodies on IR are extreme for this team, so it is a factor. Next man up is great and all, but realistically there are limits. If we'd had a flurry of injuries at WR we'd probably be in far better shape than having it at Tackle.

Here is an article, albeit old, on the issue NFL wide with college OL coming in. Note the comments about how even first round talent comes in as a project:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf ... /80918122/

There is little doubt that that Vikings have an issue in producing NFL ready OL. I doubt it is conclusive that this issue lies entirely on bad drafting or bad coaching. It could even be the CBA to some extent. There is far less time now that coaches in the league have to bring these guys up to speed. Kubiak in that article talks about how the focused on how fast a prospect could grasp the concepts, ie focusing on his intellect was their approach. Perhaps the Vikings are behind the times on this front? Is there a training / conditioning gap? Is it an inability to coach vs bad coaching? Or are our personnel choices just bad? I don't know. But I doubt it is one thing.

Another article with Pete Carrol griping about the same thing:

http://coachingsearch.com/article?a=Pet ... -a-problem

Maybe we are looking at this wrong. Maybe the issue is other clubs are "better" at converting these college prospects? Who knows?
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Re: Desperately seeking Zim

Post by PacificNorseWest » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:32 pm

mansquatch wrote:I think he is resigning himself to the fact that you can't overcome the amount of guys they have on IR.
Injuries almost need to be expected. I think the resignation stems from the fact that he's realizing the team did not do nearly enough in the offseason to address the situation. The reality of it all seems to have caught up to him.

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