Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

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RFIP
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by RFIP » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Norv Zimmer wrote:Packers look pretty bad against possibly the worst defense in the league.
I watched the PITIFUL Rams offense run through the Lions D IN Detriot, then I watched the 85' Bears D, er I mean today's Lions D stifle the Vikings....
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by mosscarter » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:52 pm

i have to go against you on this one mothman. walsh is a very inconsistent kicker and he cost us points earlier in the season, but we happened to win so it got swept under the rug. remember week one against tennessee? i don't even need to mention last year's playoff game, but i will because it was a kick that most kickers make. i gave him the benefit of the doubt, being the temperature was around 0 degrees. he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore. he deserves to be released. his confidence is clearly shot he needs a fresh start somewhere else.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by Mothman » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:21 pm

mosscarter wrote:i have to go against you on this one mothman. walsh is a very inconsistent kicker and he cost us points earlier in the season, but we happened to win so it got swept under the rug. remember week one against tennessee? i don't even need to mention last year's playoff game, but i will because it was a kick that most kickers make. i gave him the benefit of the doubt, being the temperature was around 0 degrees. he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore. he deserves to be released. his confidence is clearly shot he needs a fresh start somewhere else.

You're not going against my views with any of those statements. :) As I said earlier, I think he's played himself out of a job if they can find a replacement who's actually better.

I was simply arguing against the notion that he was the reason the Vikings lost today when it seems clear to me that they lost for a variety of reasons. For example, their red zone efficiency continues to be a serious problem.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by Hunter Morrow » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:36 pm

I don't understand the years long problem with red zone efficiency. We are presently 28th out of 32 for red zone possessions ending in touchdowns at 44 percent.

Ratings for Last 5 Years/TD Efficiency

28th
27th
16th
18th
18th

We are in the Bottom 5 of the league in back to back seasons. This is a Long term problem and for God's sake, it needs more focus. We shouldn't be punting and going for field goals all the time.

Just look at TDs overall. The Zimmer years are shaking up to be the worst of the decade TD wise.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by germannorseman » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:08 pm

Hunter Morrow wrote:I don't understand the years long problem with red zone efficiency. We are presently 28th out of 32 for red zone possessions ending in touchdowns at 44 percent.

Ratings for Last 5 Years/TD Efficiency

28th
27th
16th
18th
18th

We are in the Bottom 5 of the league in back to back seasons. This is a Long term problem and for God's sake, it needs more focus. We shouldn't be punting and going for field goals all the time.

Just look at TDs overall. The Zimmer years are shaking up to be the worst of the decade TD wise.
You are right. Two red zone trips give us 0 points. There is just no excuse for that. O line is to blame with penalties and lack of protection and lack of blocking. So as another poster said there is plenty of blame to go around, but most of it Still remains on the offense and special teams.

I was pleased that we moved the ball but it was against the lions so it's hard to get too excited yet.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by VikingsKid28 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:11 pm

Heading to Washington next week to see my first Vikes game. Maybe I can bring them some good luck, or bad luck..? :roll: Skol
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by halfgiz » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:22 pm

#Vikings had 337 total yards today in regulation in Pat Shurmur debut. Not bad.
Stefon Diggs hauled in a franchise-record 13 catches in today's contest.

Long looks like he is improving.

Linval Joseph said he lined up in the backfield "a pretty good bit" at East Carolina. His only college carry was for one yard in 2009.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:45 pm

Mothman wrote: I'll concede that the laugh emoji was unnecessary.

I wasn't trying to be condescending when I referred to people determinedly making one player the scapegoat for the loss as people demonstrating a clear desire to find a scapegoat. I thought I was simply stating the obvious. I certainly wasn't calling anybody an idiot. You put those words in my mouth.
That sounds more like sarcasm than an admission of "guilt" but I'll take it. :)

I don't think it's asking too much to ask people to acknowledge the rather obvious reality that a single one-point play didn't cost the Vikings a 60+ minute game in which the final score was 22-16. If it is, then perhaps I just don't understand what it is we're doing on this board.

I could go on but I have a feeling I'm fighting a losing battle here.

Have a nice evening.
I think as people have calmed, the game is being analyzed more thoroughly than in the beginning. The initial reaction -- completely justified, in my opinion -- was to be angry at Walsh. While I completely acknowledge that other factors contributed to the loss, it doesn't change the fact that Walsh played yet another very poor game.

Let me put it another way ...

Blair Walsh was out there for four kickoffs, two field goal attempts, and two extra point attempts, which means he took the field for eight plays. He failed to do his job on three of those instances. That's a really bad percentage, and far worse than Xavier Rhodes or Harrison Smith or anyone else.

So yes, there is blame to go around. But Blair Walsh has to take a big percentage of it. And because this is now a 3-year trend, he's pretty much kicked himself out of a job. To your credit, you've agreed with that assessment. I just think the visceral reaction is understandable, even justified. I don't know how anyone can blame a fanbase for being mad at a kicker who played such a large role in costing his team yet another game.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by Mothman » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:52 pm

TSonn wrote:The entire game plan has to change when Walsh misses an XP. As the team stands right now, they don't have the ability to make up for his errors. Sure, if the entire team was healthy and we weren't treading water on offense a missed XP might not change our game plan much, but that's clearly not the case.
I missed this earlier but I thought I'd respond now.

I agree: the missed point meant the team had to play from behind, which is different than playing with the score tied. That impacts decisions. However, that's essentially the point I was trying to make earlier. The missed XP changed the dynamics of the game but that wasn't just true for the Vikings and that's why a missed XP in the 3rd quarter can't be singled out as the sole deciding factor. The Vikes were trailing and that undoubtedly had some impact on their strategy. By the same token the Lions were leading and that naturally had an impact on their approach. If Walsh had made the extra point, that would have had an impact on how the teams called subsequent plays, which means we can't assume the rest of the game would have played out as it actually did today. Each situation in a game leads to the next so changing that one play and changing the score would have had a "butterfly effect" and led to a different set of outcomes.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by tmscr » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:56 pm

Outside of the X's and O's, I'm very big into the demeanor and confidence of football. I believe those things tell a lot about a team. What I saw last week was a team who was "out-efforted" in the loss to the bears. What I saw today out of mike zimmer was troubling. During the first 5 games, zimmer seemed totally in control, even when he was yelling and being his usual intense self. These last few games and especially today, the look on his face was not one that instilled much confidence in me. That isn't to say I don't believe he is a good coach. I love him and I'm thrilled we have him after a string of bad coaches.

That being said, every time they showed him on today's telecast, he looked lost, not in control and not very confident. He totally butchered things by calling that timeout way too soon. That, more than anything IMO, cost the win today. I get the feeling that he's lost the confidence he had early on and it looks like he doesn't have any answers as to how to stop this mess. It seems to have bled onto the defensive unit as well. Rushing 3 guys on the final series of regulation with a kicker who can hit from 60 yards out was a recipe for disaster. I don't know what's going on with him, but I hope he can turn it around. I really like him but all the confidence and gusto seems to be out of his sails. Just my two cents.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by tmscr » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:03 pm

Mothman wrote: I missed this earlier but I thought I'd respond now.

I agree: the missed point meant the team had to play from behind, which is different than playing with the score tied. That impacts decisions. However, that's essentially the point I was trying to make earlier. The missed XP changed the dynamics of the game but that wasn't just true for the Vikings and that's why a missed XP in the 3rd quarter can't be singled out as the sole deciding factor. The Vikes were trailing and that undoubtedly had some impact on their strategy. By the same token the Lions were leading and that naturally had an impact on their approach. If Walsh had made the extra point, that would have had an impact on how the teams called subsequent plays, which means we can't assume the rest of the game would have played out as it actually did today. Each situation in a game leads to the next so changing that one play and changing the score would have had a "butterfly effect" and led to a different set of outcomes.
The worst part about missing the xps, aside from the obvious loss of points, is that it essentially cuts the momentum that should be gained by scoring. The lions probably felt that they had dodged a bullet despite giving up the TD. This game is all about momentum and there is nothing more deflating for a team that has struggled to score points than leaving points on the field.

One thing is sure, Walsh will not be on this team next year. You simply can't leave points on the field when so many NFL games are decided by 7 points or less. I give the Vikings credit for giving him another chance. Some teams may have cut him after the playoff miss, but they apparently believed enough in his body of work to give him another shot. Today was the first time this year he cost us immensely. I feel for him, it's got to be hell to deal with what he's going through. But it can't go on much longer.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by tmscr » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:13 pm

Too many pages to read through so I apologize if this has been mentioned, but my god, the secondary play was atrocious today. There were at least 3 or 4 blatant PI/holding calls that should gone against the Vikings but weren't called. Is that what qualifies as defending a pass on our team anymore? To just hold and mug the receiver? That's hard to believe with a guy like zimmer coaching the defense. How many 3rd down conversions did the lions have in OT? That was like watching the pre zimmer 3rd down defense.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by Mothman » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:15 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:I think as people have calmed, the game is being analyzed more thoroughly than in the beginning. The initial reaction -- completely justified, in my opinion -- was to be angry at Walsh. While I completely acknowledge that other factors contributed to the loss, it doesn't change the fact that Walsh played yet another very poor game.
No, it doesn't but that wasn't really in question.
Let me put it another way ...

Blair Walsh was out there for four kickoffs, two field goal attempts, and two extra point attempts, which means he took the field for eight plays. He failed to do his job on three of those instances. That's a really bad percentage, and far worse than Xavier Rhodes or Harrison Smith or anyone else.

So yes, there is blame to go around. But Blair Walsh has to take a big percentage of it.
Sure, I think he takes the percentage that's appropriate for those plays and their impact on the game. However, the game wasn't defined by those plays so there really is plenty of blame to go around, which is the point I was making from the start. The offense has to take their percentage of the blame for coming away with no points at all on 2 red zone possessions. That's a loss of between 6 and 16 potential points and at least as significant as the cost of Walsh's mistakes. The defense has to take their share of the blame for allowing the Lions to go on a nearly 10 minute, 84 yard scoring drive to close out the first half and a 23 second scoring drive to send the game to OT, followed by an 87 yard TD drive to win the game on the first and only possession of OT! That was a poor finish by the defense.
And because this is now a 3-year trend, he's pretty much kicked himself out of a job. To your credit, you've agreed with that assessment. I just think the visceral reaction is understandable, even justified. I don't know how anyone can blame a fanbase for being mad at a kicker who played such a large role in costing his team yet another game.
I didn't blame anybody for being mad at Walsh today. Heck, I was mad at Walsh today. I never said anger toward him for his performance was unjustified. What I was arguing against was the idea that he was the reason they lost, that this wasn't a team loss but a loss that rested solely on Walsh's shoulders.
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by Mothman » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:18 pm

tmscr wrote:The worst part about missing the xps, aside from the obvious loss of points, is that it essentially cuts the momentum that should be gained by scoring. The lions probably felt that they had dodged a bullet despite giving up the TD. This game is all about momentum and there is nothing more deflating for a team that has struggled to score points than leaving points on the field.
That's true and probably impacts momentum even more when that missed point is the difference between a tie and a lead.
One thing is sure, Walsh will not be on this team next year. You simply can't leave points on the field when so many NFL games are decided by 7 points or less. I give the Vikings credit for giving him another chance. Some teams may have cut him after the playoff miss, but they apparently believed enough in his body of work to give him another shot. Today was the first time this year he cost us immensely. I feel for him, it's got to be hell to deal with what he's going through. But it can't go on much longer.
I think you're right that this will be his last year with the team. He'd probably have to be perfect for the remainder of the season to save his job at this point (if it can even be saved).
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Re: Lions @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 9

Post by tmscr » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:23 pm

Mothman wrote: That's true and probably impacts momentum even more when that missed point is the difference between a tie and a lead.
I think you're right that this will be his last year with the team. He'd probably have to be perfect for the remainder of the season to save his job at this point (if it can even be saved).
The absolute worst thing to happen to Blair Walsh was the new extra point rule. It go into his head and shattered his confidence, and its seeped into every other facet of the kicking game. That kick that was blocked was probably going to be wide left by 50 feet. His post game comments are pretty indicative of his mental state, IMO. It's too bad we are terrible with 3 or less yards to go, as we would probably just ditch the XP kick if things somehow get even worse.
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