Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

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mondry
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by mondry » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:37 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:So ... how about the offense today in the first game post-Norv?

I think there were some promising signs -- quicker plays, better offensive line play (at least on passing plays -- only two sacks for this line is a MAJOR win), getting more players involved (even Laquon Treadwell!), more imagination on first down.

I also liked some of the creativity in the Vikings' plays today, particularly the use of Linval Joseph in the backfield, which resulted in two touchdowns. I also liked Shurmur's willingness to get Cordarrelle Patterson involved in a major way. I look for good things out of CP going forward.

But then, the old issues cropped up again. Inability to establish a running game, problems in the red zone, untimely penalties.

What's the consensus? What are you guys thinking? I know it's only one game, but are we seeing anything?
I came away fairly impressed today. For once I didn't think the OC was holding us back, every time they failed it was squarely on the players making mistakes or just getting beat.

Loved the runs to the outside, they were quite a bit more effective than our standard 1st down run off either guard up the middle strategy.

Bradford was 31/40 for 273 and a TD with pretty much nothing but short / quick passes. A massive improvement from the long developing plays that were destroying drive after drive and exposed Sam to unnecessary hits.

The creativity was much improved, putting in that Linval Jumbo package and then running play action pass to a wide open Rudolph was brilliant. Getting Patterson and Diggs the ball in their hands in as simple of a way as possible was great to see as well. They didn't break any big YAC plays but I think it's only a matter of time with as much opportunity as they got.

The overall results won't show too much improvement but I like what I saw today. If they can build on this further it'll go a long way to getting some W's.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:59 pm

S197 wrote: I liked that they were able to move the ball and get in the endzone. Can't fix everything overnight but the offense looked better than it did the past two weeks. Both plays with Linval (who was basically a decoy) were both nicely drawn up and executed. I would like to see Bradford hit on some of those longer throws, he lead the receiver too much on a few of them.
Yeah, that was too bad. I also lost some hair when CP dropped that sure TD in the end zone. But the good thing is that he got open deep a couple of times. When's the last time we've seen Patterson targeted down the field?

I really think there's something to the idea that Norv was stubborn in his offensive tendencies.

Here's a really good article about it.

This particular example caught my attention:
This is a first down play where Minnesota was looking down field and again. There was nowhere to check down when pressure came.

On this first down play, Bradford takes a sack because all of his receivers are tightly covered. Notice that only one of the routes went less than 10 yards.
I know it's easy to just dump on Norv in hindsight, but there seems to be some proof that he was pretty fixated on getting the ball downfield, in spite of the fact that the Vikings weren't well-equipped to do so. And while I'm certainly no offensive expert, it doesn't seem smart to design a play with no check down.

Bradford's throws today came out much quicker. And the defense really didn't take away much -- he hit 78% of his throws. I definitely wish we could have more explosive plays, but you gotta walk before you can run. We weren't even crawling against the Bears.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:17 pm

Mothman wrote:Find some evidence and you might have a case but at this point, it sounds like nothing more than confirmation bias. If it went badly, it must have been Norv. If it went well, it must have been someone else...
This may or may not qualify as evidence, but it's where I got the idea (I'm smart enough to have ideas like this on my own!) ...
Jud Zulgad wrote:As our Vikings analyst Matthew Coller has pointed out on this website, the offense was using more deep drops with Bradford in the past two games. These are things Turner likes to do but, in this case, there had to be real concern that the line’s inability to protect Bradford was going to get the immobile quarterback injured.

It was almost as if Turner had watched the Vikings’ success using what looked like a Shurmur system in the first four starts by Bradford and then said, “Hey, let’s reincorporate some of what I like to do since Sam has been here a while.”
Here's the entire article.

(By "the past two games," Zulgad is referring to the Philly and Chicago games.)

It's not concrete proof, but since it does come from a journalist who covers the Vikings every day, it seems at least more plausible than any speculation WE might have.

Here's something else that I know from my years as a reporter. RARELY does the whole story come out during the first few days on something like this. Nobody wants to trample on the reputation of a respected coach, especially one who will likely be looking for another job. In the early days, Zimmer is going to say the politically correct things, as he should, and the players aren't going to say much of anything (not smart to trash an outgoing coach right away).

But at some point, when the dust has settled, a player or coach or somebody close to the situation will give us the story. It'll likely be a player with an axe to grind, like a Cordarrelle Patterson or perhaps a Laquon Treadwell, so their views would be biased, of course. But that's usually how we get the story on things like this ... or at least how we get closer to the truth.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Mothman » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:44 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: This may or may not qualify as evidence, but it's where I got the idea (I'm smart enough to have ideas like this on my own!) ...
Here's the entire article.

(By "the past two games," Zulgad is referring to the Philly and Chicago games.)

It's not concrete proof, but since it does come from a journalist who covers the Vikings every day, it seems at least more plausible than any speculation WE might have.
Perhaps but it still seems highly speculative and unless I misread it, Zulgad's not positing that Shurmur actually called the plays prior to the bye and that Turner returned to playcalling duties after the bye. It was reported from the start that Shurmur's opinion played a significant role in the choice to trade for Bradford and Turner was using Shurmur's knowledge of Bradford as an asset in formulating game plans. I don't doubt any of that. I just find it hard to believe Zimmer yanked his OC's playcalling duties after Bradford was acquired and then returned them to him after the bye and after the team had played two of their better offensive games of the season.
It's certainly possible that Turner was using Shurmur's input more before the bye than after. It's also possible that he continued using it and some of the differences in the playcalling were a reaction to what the Eagles and Bears were doing.

I just don't see anything very definitive in the more conspiratorial thinking about this subject but I do agree with you that we don't always get the full story in the early wake of a coach's departure.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by halfgiz » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:10 pm

From what I understand Shurmur had a lot of imput with the game planning and scripting of plays, until they felt Bradford was comfortable with the offense.
Norv was still up in the booth calling plays. But after the bye the game planning went back to Norv.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Demi » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:34 pm

When's the last time we've seen Patterson targeted down the field?
When he was benched for running the wrong route and Teddy's ball hitting the turf instead of the open receiver that it should have. The question has always been mental. Getting open is great. Be where the QB expects you to be, and make the catch....
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:02 pm

Demi wrote: When he was benched for running the wrong route and Teddy's ball hitting the turf instead of the open receiver that it should have. The question has always been mental. Getting open is great. Be where the QB expects you to be, and make the catch....
I remember that vs Washington. Even though that's a bad drop today, I'm not concerned about his hands. And I've been impressed with what he's done this year
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:05 pm

As for Shurmur, he has the right idea of what to do with this offense unlike Norv. A lot of quick hitters. 2 plays I didn't agree with today was that we should've done a sneak with Bradford on the 4th and inches and I'm not sure why we tried running the ball on a 2nd and 19. I don't understand why Treadwell didn't play much after that catch. Charles Johnson brings nothing to the table. And Ronnie Hillman needs to get more carries. I'm beyond sick of watching Asiata.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by tmscr » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:17 pm

Why is Ronnie hillman on this team if we aren't going to use him more than several times a game?
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by PurpleMustReign » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:38 pm

tmscr wrote:Why is Ronnie hillman on this team if we aren't going to use him more than several times a game?
He seemed to be shaken up a bit after one of his runs.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by chicagopurple » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:00 am

Its all just a sad stew of mediocrity at best. There is no standard of excellence, especially on offense. Bradford's a middling QB who cant perform reliably downfield. Teddy was pretty much the same only less successful but "a nice guy", the OL is a bunch of cut rate cast offs, and its never going to lead to a title, ever........We just got beat 2 weeks in a row by crappy teams even at home. Now Zim is playing scared on defense, going into the 1990's Viking Prevent defense at crunch time......soon he will regress to the Denny Green school of freezing up and running up the middle endlessly when inside the 10 yard line.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by PurpleMustReign » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:35 am

Running Asiata up the middle doesn't work. Letting Walsh kick anything other than his own groin doesn't work. It is mind boggling that they keep trying.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by mansquatch » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:57 am

There are still a lot of issues. The defense we jsut played against is terrible and we couldn't get a first down (again) on 4th and inches. It felt like at least in the passing game they were doing more with the assets we have. The rushing attack continues to be a complete disaster.

The last three games have shown me what TB brings to the team. His mobility and ability to makes something out of a busted protection is huge asset to this team. Bradford's lack of mobility makes it very hard for us to take advantage of his skillset given the horrible state of the protection. Similarly, we miss AP. AP was good enough to make his OL look better. Asiata and Mckinnon are not.


As much as the offense is a crap show, the bigger concern is defensive inconsistency. 2 weeks in a row they've let a divisional offense get the better of them at key moments.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by chicagopurple » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:59 pm

lol...if you think TB is the savior who will turn this ship around, more power to you....he has no arm to throw deep routes and he hasn't shown any maturation. He is just a big "maybe" and after his injury his mobility may no longer be what it once was......

This team needs a major review from the top down. No One from the GM down to the kicker is doing a job that could rated as excellent and excellence is ALL that should be tolerated.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Laserman » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:34 pm

looked exactly the same to me. Run strait up the middle all the time. Quick passes to the Wide out. No slants, No Misdirection runs, no trap runs, No Screen passess. Looks like the Norms OFFense to me
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