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 Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner 
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Post Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
the title is meant to be a play on words because Shurmur will call plays from the sidelines, not the booth:

http://www.twincities.com/2016/11/03/mn ... ago-bears/

Quote:
Shurmur takes over an offense that ranks next-to-last in the NFL in total yards (293.3 per game) and rushing yards (71.9), and has had Bradford sacked 11 times in the past two games. He says he is not planning any big play-calling changes heading into Sunday’s game against Detroit at U.S. Bank Stadium.

“I don’t think you totally change what we’re doing offensively,” Shurmur said. “There’s certain things that may look different. … I think what we need to do is coach better, we need to play better.”


Quote:
“He said our main focus is let’s figure out what we do really well and go from there and get back on track,” fullback Zach Line said.


Just so it's clear, Line is referring to Shurmur.

Quote:
“It’s important first that we take care of the football,” Shurmur said. “We have an extremely good defense, we play great on special teams. … It’s important that we’re efficient running the football. We’ve got to find a way in the passing game to also be efficient.”


I don't think anyone is quite sure what to expect from the Vikes offense on Sunday. It should be interesting. I sure hope they can beat the Lions and get back on track. As Irish Viking pointed out the other day, it's been almost a month since we've seen a good Vikings football game (they played the texans on October 9th).


Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:09 am
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Has any team so thoroughly evaporated their fans hopes and expectations in a shorter time?

I'm curious to see where they go. When he says "what we are good at" is he referring to the guys up front or the skill guys? Probably a mix of both, but I suspect the the "range" for the phrase in the quotes above is far smaller for the former group than the latter. At least at this point in the season.

My thought is we'll see more short stuff on the outside, more quick passes, and more straight ahead running. The most concerning thing for me on Monday was the fact that the interior guys couldn't get any push off the LOS. We all know the issues at Tackle. The Interior guys are all supposedly still healthy and our original starting cast. If they can't get push then our rushing attack is thoroughly doomed.

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Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:23 am
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Well, it seems like Boone is more than likely out for the game Sunday. I have liked what I see from Sirles though, I think the Norv resignation is going to light a fire under the defense and hopefully the offense can pull it together and have a solid game.


Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:31 am
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Mothman wrote:
Quote:
“He said our main focus is let’s figure out what we do really well and go from there and get back on track,” fullback Zach Line said.


Just so it's clear, Line is referring to Shurmur.


Shurmur is so right about this. Personally, I doubt the Vikings can fix things quickly enough to be a top offense. But if they can play even average NFL ball offensively, that will be a big improvement. They will have to focus on their strengths to do that.


Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:12 am
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
we could use every offensive coordinator in the league this season. if something, anything isn't done to improve the play on the offensive line, it doesn't matter. I've seen average o-lines. bad o-lines. even close to terrible o-lines. ours currently takes the cake. without trying to sound over the top, this is the worst offensive line play I can ever recall seeing. it's one thing to be average. but these guys should frankly be embarrassed by their effort and performance.

I knew our running game would struggle this season. even with AP I didn't think we were a team that would average 100 yards on the ground. it's annoying, but for me it was expected. but now that teams have learned to take away the quick routes and screen passes, Bradford is in a dire situation. we simply MUST find a way to get this kid even a few seconds to let a route develop. if not, we're screwed.

on a related note, i'm always fascinated with how nfl teams are able to study and evolve. our style of offense we were allowed to run the first month of the season has been all but taken away. currently defenses are one step ahead of our offense. we need to turn the tables and come up with some new schemes and protections going forward. if we can do that I think we're still a pretty good team.

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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
vikeinmontana wrote:

I knew our running game would struggle this season. even with AP I didn't think we were a team that would average 100 yards on the ground. it's annoying, but for me it was expected..


I didn't think in the beginning of the season our OL would struggle that much.
Last year:
Kalil
Fusco
Berger
Clemmings
AP ran for 2000 yards

This year:
Kalil
Boone - improvement
Berger
Fusco
Smith improvement over Clemmings

Current:
Long
Boone
Berger
Fusco
Clemmings
3 of last years starters on the line and we have been bad.
Why is that??


Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:32 pm
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
vikeinmontana wrote:

on a related note, i'm always fascinated with how nfl teams are able to study and evolve. our style of offense we were allowed to run the first month of the season has been all but taken away.


No, someone else was doing that. Offense was "dumbed down" and Bradford was shredding people. It wasn't quick stuff either. A lot of the routes were 20+ yard hits . we can sit here and speculate about closed door stuff til the sun goes down, but it is EXTREMELY odd that Bradford was putting up 100 QBR games and lighting it up when the offense was "dumbed down" and all of a sudden things went downhill in a hurry after the bye. all of a sudden nobody is getting open, all of a sudden he's getting sacked a lot. All of a sudden.


Wonder how they "dumbed it down", if you ask me it was a different set of plays, being called by the current OC because of his familiarity with the new QB


Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:27 pm
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Norv Zimmer wrote:
Well, it seems like Boone is more than likely out for the game Sunday. I have liked what I see from Sirles though, I think the Norv resignation is going to light a fire under the defense and hopefully the offense can pull it together and have a solid game.


Just what we needed. Wonder who they'll stick in there, Easton?


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Boon wrote:
vikeinmontana wrote:

on a related note, i'm always fascinated with how nfl teams are able to study and evolve. our style of offense we were allowed to run the first month of the season has been all but taken away.


No, someone else was doing that. Offense was "dumbed down" and Bradford was shredding people. It wasn't quick stuff either. A lot of the routes were 20+ yard hits . we can sit here and speculate about closed door stuff til the sun goes down, but it is EXTREMELY odd that Bradford was putting up 100 QBR games and lighting it up when the offense was "dumbed down" and all of a sudden things went downhill in a hurry after the bye. all of a sudden nobody is getting open, all of a sudden he's getting sacked a lot. All of a sudden.


You make it sound like they were shredding defenses before the bye. It's not that strange. The Vikes spent a month putting their tendencies on film. Teams saw how they were adapting their offense to Bradford and to compensate for their poor line and running game and put together effective game plans to stop it. The Bears and Eagles both have top 10 defenses (with some help from the Vikings). They both matched up well with the Vikes offense.

Quote:
Wonder how they "dumbed it down", if you ask me it was a different set of plays, being called by the current OC because of his familiarity with the new QB


Find some evidence and you might have a case but at this point, it sounds like nothing more than confirmation bias. If it went badly, it must have been Norv. If it went well, it must have been someone else...


Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:36 pm
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
halfgiz wrote:
vikeinmontana wrote:

I knew our running game would struggle this season. even with AP I didn't think we were a team that would average 100 yards on the ground. it's annoying, but for me it was expected..


I didn't think in the beginning of the season our OL would struggle that much.
Last year:
Kalil
Fusco
Berger
Clemmings
AP ran for 2000 yards

This year:
Kalil
Boone - improvement
Berger
Fusco
Smith improvement over Clemmings

Current:
Long
Boone
Berger
Fusco
Clemmings
3 of last years starters on the line and we have been bad.
Why is that??


I think in March of 2016 they thought that the line would be this:

Kalil
Boone
Sullivan
Harris
Loadholt

Please note that had we fielded this line sans Sullivan it likely would not have been league worst. Then Sullivan got cut, Harris went MIA, and Loadholt went fishing. So that line never was to be. Before Training camp starts, we had lost 3 out of 5 pieces, in retrospect that should have been the warning of impending disaster. Spielman and co should have done more at this point, IMO. Sullivan never caught on anywhere else after they cut him (a telling sign) and they knew they were deeply vulnerable at Tackle. It left us with:

Kalil
Boone
Berger
Fusco
Smith

Then injuries happened and we signed Jake Long:

Long
Boone
Berger
Fusco
Clemmings

It really isn't hard to see why we suck. We've got basically the worst of last season's debacle (Clemmings/Fusco) plus we are down Kalil and Harris. (Harris, along with Berger, was one of the lone bright spots in 2015.) Kalil, who even in the face of his inconsistency is the best tackle on the roster. Basically this year is more trash on top of last season's trash, plus a total band-aid/duct tape solution at LT. Alex Boone has been at best a side-grade to Fusco at LG. Our best linemen is aging Joe Berger. Not a recipe for success.

I have to admit I'm not optimistic on the OL at this point. Every solution they tried last year unraveled, most of it before the regular season even started. Calamity hit in Week 2. Are they really going to get more out of Clemmings and Fusco? At this point it will be a surprise. Fusco hasn't been the same since he tore his Pec in 2014 and Clemmings unfortunately continues to be the same.

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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Different view..fine. His history doesn't inspire confidence. He's different than Norv. But his history shouldn't really inspire confidence. But at least we won't be seeing Norv's offense. Which is fine if you have the talent. We don't. Which was why Shurmur was signed in the first place. The front offense clearly knew the talent they had, the OC they had, and wanted Shurmur just in case. Well, it's just in case time. Shurmur hasn't shown much in his previous stops. Norv did. When he had the talent. Shurmer didn't, regardless of the talent.

It's frustrating. The front office knew there might be issues before the season began. And the season began...and there were issues. Can Shurmur make a difference? Likely. Enough? Doubtful. Same ole Vikings. One dimensional team. Norv wasn't the answer. From the second they drafted a QB who had no way to succeed in his offense. And traded for another who likely couldn't succeed in it. If you're running an offense with this type of talent, and a focus from the head coach that focuses on defense, you need the talent, or the coach, who can make the most out of the talent on the other side of the ball. I don't think Norv or Shurmur is that guy. Shurmur is closer than Norv, but looking at the history, he isn't the answer either. We'll see moving forward, but likely they'll be in the same situation after the season is over. Either focus on the talent, and guys getting healthy, or a coach who is willing to do whatever he can to get the best out of what he has. There are guys out there that can do that, will the team target one? Who knows. But right not, you can't stick with what Norv is going to do, regardless of talent. He ran his offense with Teddy and scraps, and every one saw what was happening. Including the GM.

This team needed a new guy to coordinate the offense regardless. Can Shurmur do it? Doubtful. Even if everyone was healthy. Zimmer is a guy who can maximize defensive play, regardless of talent. Norv is on the low end of that offensive spectrum. Shurmur isn't on the top end, from his past jobs. Now is the time to start building a *team*, and find an offensive coach. This team has been one dimensional for too long. Based on trades, picks, hires. It's painfully obviously what this team needs, as it has been. Are the people in place to make the moves to fill those holes? I doubt it. But I doubted it when those people were given the power to make those decisions. Let's hope I'm wrong, but the questions are much more clear now than they have been since Favre was signed. And the decision makers made some questionable decisions after that.

Including the Norv/Shurmur silliness that was obvious before this season began. After seeing it play out like this...why? Ownership? General Manager? :wallbang:


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Demi wrote:
Different view..fine. His history doesn't inspire confidence. He's different than Norv. But his history shouldn't really inspire confidence.


Doesn't really have much of a history. But his 3 years in philly as OC and interim coach were fielding nfl offensive ranks of 2nd, 5th and 12th, despite having nick foles and mark sanchez, and Chip Kelly's crap system which he was running. Last year they would have been higher had it not been for penalties and a horrible drop rate. You're right, its not much overall but these last 3 years of him as an oc are quite promising actually.


Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:06 pm
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Demi wrote:
Different view..fine. His history doesn't inspire confidence. He's different than Norv. But his history shouldn't really inspire confidence. But at least we won't be seeing Norv's offense. Which is fine if you have the talent. We don't. Which was why Shurmur was signed in the first place. The front offense clearly knew the talent they had, the OC they had, and wanted Shurmur just in case. Well, it's just in case time. Shurmur hasn't shown much in his previous stops. Norv did. When he had the talent. Shurmer didn't, regardless of the talent.

It's frustrating. The front office knew there might be issues before the season began. And the season began...and there were issues. Can Shurmur make a difference? Likely. Enough? Doubtful. Same ole Vikings. One dimensional team. Norv wasn't the answer. From the second they drafted a QB who had no way to succeed in his offense. And traded for another who likely couldn't succeed in it. If you're running an offense with this type of talent, and a focus from the head coach that focuses on defense, you need the talent, or the coach, who can make the most out of the talent on the other side of the ball. I don't think Norv or Shurmur is that guy. Shurmur is closer than Norv, but looking at the history, he isn't the answer either. We'll see moving forward, but likely they'll be in the same situation after the season is over. Either focus on the talent, and guys getting healthy, or a coach who is willing to do whatever he can to get the best out of what he has. There are guys out there that can do that, will the team target one? Who knows. But right not, you can't stick with what Norv is going to do, regardless of talent. He ran his offense with Teddy and scraps, and every one saw what was happening. Including the GM.

This team needed a new guy to coordinate the offense regardless. Can Shurmur do it? Doubtful. Even if everyone was healthy. Zimmer is a guy who can maximize defensive play, regardless of talent. Norv is on the low end of that offensive spectrum. Shurmur isn't on the top end, from his past jobs. Now is the time to start building a *team*, and find an offensive coach. This team has been one dimensional for too long. Based on trades, picks, hires. It's painfully obviously what this team needs, as it has been. Are the people in place to make the moves to fill those holes? I doubt it. But I doubted it when those people were given the power to make those decisions. Let's hope I'm wrong, but the questions are much more clear now than they have been since Favre was signed. And the decision makers made some questionable decisions after that.

Including the Norv/Shurmur silliness that was obvious before this season began. After seeing it play out like this...why? Ownership? General Manager? :wallbang:


Wait till we play at least few games with Shurmur before you write him off, OK? If we still suck I'll help you do it. I guess you think we should just wave the white flag now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVNuyfhF0Q

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Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:49 pm
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Purple Martin wrote:
Wait till we play at least few games with Shurmur before you write him off, OK? If we still suck I'll help you do it. I guess you think we should just wave the white flag now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVNuyfhF0Q


:lol: Well-linked.


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Norv has had success in the past, but his recent track record is anything but stellar. Over the past five seasons (San Diego, Cleveland, and the Vikings counting this season) Norv's offenses have ranked 26th or worse in total yards four times. The only time his team didn't finish in the bottom 6 of total yards was with Cleveland in 2013, when the Browns finished 16th in yards but 27th in scoring. Whatever magic Norv had earlier in his career, he seems to have lost it.

So ... will things actually improve under Shurmur? Comments like these give me hope ...

Pat Shurmur wrote:
"Sometimes you have a favorite play or you have a concept that you think should work but you don't have the players to execute it," Shurmur said. "I think it's very important to first look and see who your players are, who the guys are that you're working with and what things they do best. That's what you learn over time."


Here's the link.

How many times have we criticized Norv for trying to shoehorn players into his system? Shurmur seems to have a much different attitude. Hopefully it manifests itself into actual improvement.

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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
A lot of people need to realize too, that we get short fields a lot. Top 10 offense would be nice but realistically we should be seeing middle of the packish, 15th or so, that would be right about where would probably put us in good position to clean house the rest of the year and into the post season. That's just in yardage, scoring should follow suit


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Boon wrote:
A lot of people need to realize too, that we get short fields a lot. Top 10 offense would be nice but realistically we should be seeing middle of the packish, 15th or so, that would be right about where would probably put us in good position to clean house the rest of the year and into the post season. That's just in yardage, scoring should follow suit


Good point. We need touchdowns, not necessarily big yardage. And 15th-14th-13th is right where we were when Norv got here, but we haven't seen it since.

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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Pat Shurmur wrote:
"Sometimes you have a favorite play or you have a concept that you think should work but you don't have the players to execute it," Shurmur said. "I think it's very important to first look and see who your players are, who the guys are that you're working with and what things they do best. That's what you learn over time."


Here's the link.

How many times have we criticized Norv for trying to shoehorn players into his system? Shurmur seems to have a much different attitude. Hopefully it manifests itself into actual improvement.


I absolutely agree!

Shurmur is talking about the exact thing the Vikings need most from their offensive coordinator right now. They've gone too long trying to be force-fed into a system that was incongruous with the talent at hand, including both the skill players and problem plagued OL. I believe the last two games were particularly proof of that.


Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:20 pm
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Purple Martin wrote:
Boon wrote:
A lot of people need to realize too, that we get short fields a lot. Top 10 offense would be nice but realistically we should be seeing middle of the packish, 15th or so, that would be right about where would probably put us in good position to clean house the rest of the year and into the post season. That's just in yardage, scoring should follow suit


Good point. We need touchdowns, not necessarily big yardage. And 15th-14th-13th is right where we were when Norv got here, but we haven't seen it since.

No matter how you measure it -- yards or points -- Turner's production over the past five years has not lived up to his reputation. With the field position our defense routinely gives the offense, we should be scoring 25+ per game.

At some point, what a coach did with three Hall of Famers 20 years ago has to stop mattering.

Here's something else. I forget where I read it, but apparently the reason Norv wouldn't play Patterson was because he hadn't "mastered the entire offense." Rather than utilize CP for the things he COULD do, he benched him. There is speculation that's also the reason we have yet to see Laquon Treadwell in any meaningful way. In Norv's world, the story goes, if you can't run the entire playbook, you don't see the field. Shurmur supposedly is willing to use guys in whatever ways they can contribute.

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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
At some point, what a coach did with three Hall of Famers 20 years ago has to stop mattering.


So people keep saying but that's not quite fair to Turner, since he coached the league's #1-ranked offense as recently as 2010. He had the #6 offense in 2011. The wheels came off for the Chargers offense in 2013 and I don't recall exactly what happened when a shift is that dramatic, there's a good chance major injuries or personnel changes were involved. My point is Turner wasn't just living off a reputation he earned with the Cowboys back in the early 90s. He's had offensive success much more recently than that.

Quote:
Here's something else. I forget where I read it, but apparently the reason Norv wouldn't play Patterson was because he hadn't "mastered the entire offense." Rather than utilize CP for the things he COULD do, he benched him. There is speculation that's also the reason we have yet to see Laquon Treadwell in any meaningful way. In Norv's world, the story goes, if you can't run the entire playbook, you don't see the field
.

... and apparently, in Mike Zimmer's world that's just fine. It was fine with the majority of fans here last year too. I was repeatedly told the coaches knew best, Zimmer could practically do no wrong. If Patterson was on the bench, it was for a good reason. It had to be for a good reason because Zimmer was backing the decision.

Overall, Turner ran an ineffective offense in Minnesota. He showed some resourcefulness and flexibility but not nearly enough. At times, he tried to shoehorn players into his system but who stood by and watched it? Heck, who enabled it? Mike Zimmer, who can seemingly do no wrong in the eyes of most Vikes fans.

If the team didn't want Norv Turner's system, they shouldn't have hired Norv Turner. When an OC is botching his handling of player personnel and/or mismanaging the offense in other ways, the head coach isn't supposed to stand by and watch for 2.5 years while busying himself with the defense. He's supposed to step in and help get things moving in the right direction. It's also somewhat important for the team to get players that fit their chosen system. That tends to minimize how many square pegs get forced into round holes. If they wanted Turner to run his scheme effectively, they needed to get him the players to do that. As far as I'm concerned, they blew it from the start by drafting Bridgewater (and Norv encouraged them to do it, which might be his biggest failing of all in Minnesota—not even recognizing that the QB he wanted was a poor fit!). They compounded their mistake with their handling of the OL and Norv himself did his part to make things worse. He doesn't get a pass but ultimately, I think this falls at the feet of Mike Zimmer and Rick Spielman, who hired Turner, gave him autonomy and allowed things to get to this point.

Things might get better under Shurmur. I hope so, but I'm not expecting miracles or a midseason change in systems. It will be interesting to see what the coming weeks bring and it will also be interesting to see if Zimmer continues to give his OC almost complete autonomy.


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
After typing up that last post, I started wondering if anyone in the media was a saying much about Zimmer's role in this. A quick search turned up this recent piece by Kevin Siefert:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post ... gs-offense

Quote:
Zimmer has always said he's had a hand in the team's offensive approach, but the truth came out Wednesday in the raw emotion of Turner's decision.

"I would say that since Norv has been here, I've given him almost 100 percent, total free will in everything that they've done offensively," Zimmer said. "Obviously I'd come in and make suggestions, but there really has never been a time when I have demanded anything from there."

I'm sure Zimmer takes some professional pride in that approach, especially as a longtime assistant himself. Who wouldn't want a boss who stays out of the way? But it rendered him powerless to execute one of the basic jobs of a head coach: to "coach" the assistants.

Turner is one of the most accomplished coordinators of this generation, and in this case, he was hired to be the head coach of the Vikings' offense. This is never an ideal approach, regardless of the mutual admiration and achievements of the respective parties.

When something goes wrong and a schematic adjustment needs to be made, it's the job of the head coach to step in and make sure it gets done. It's not always pleasant. It could encounter resistance and might be inferred as disrespect, but it's an important part of the checks and balance of leadership, and it was something Zimmer has largely avoided addressing in a direct way through the ups and downs of the Vikings' offense during his tenure.


Quote:
Norv Turner has been coaching his way for a long time. And for the most part, it has worked. Zimmer hired him to do his thing in Minnesota, and Zimmer essentially recused himself from having a substantive role in the direction of the offense.

With Zimmer unable or unwilling to insert himself directly in times of crisis, to guide Turner effectively through adjustments that could be made, this arrangement was doomed from the start.


The whole column is right on target as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad to see someone in the media pointing this stuff out.


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Mothman wrote:

Find some evidence and you might have a case but at this point, it sounds like nothing more than confirmation bias. If it went badly, it must have been Norv. If it went well, it must have been someone else...


So you don't find it at all odd that a qb who had been there a week and a half played a really good game against a very stout defense in the packers? And continued to play extremely efficient football up til the bye, to come out of it horrendous after having a damn good grasp of the offense? You have damn near the same blocking as earlier in the season. It wasn't that great either. But the whole basis of your argument is turner, not someone else, was calling the plays and dumbed it down for sammy. I'm not buying that. I don't see how what you're saying is not speculation, but what im saying is based off of a "common sense" standpoint and this huge rumor going around that shurmur was running with sammy for a few weeks teaching him the playbook. Having a hand in it is calling the plays as far as i'm concerned.

I know turner is the oc but there isnt a chance in hell that you go vs tennesee week 1, dont score an offensive td even with hill at qb, to go against an even STRONGER defense the following week, in a division game at home in a new freaking stadium and have a quarterback that has been there for barely over a week play the way he did with a known brick wall calling the plays. This is too obvious to be speculation


Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:34 am
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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Good posts, Jim. It is Zimmers team, not Norv's or Shurmur's or Edwards... Zimmer is the head coach... If any part of the team is struggling, it is also on him. I remember when Tice was the coach, he routinely spent time with whichever part of the team was having trouble, and his teams were better because of it.

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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Boon wrote:
So you don't find it at all odd that a qb who had been there a week and a half played a really good game against a very stout defense in the packers? And continued to play extremely efficient football up til the bye, to come out of it horrendous after having a damn good grasp of the offense?


No, because Turner worked with Shurmur and Bradford to get a handle on what the latter was comfortable running on short notice, what his strengths were, etc. and then they put together a game plan for Green Bay based on that input. This was reported at the time, as was the approach Turner was taking with Bradford. It's a stretch to think the Vikings traded for Bradford and then Mike Zimmer immediately relieved Turner of playcalling duties for 4 weeks so Shurmur could call the plays for Bradford, only to return those duties to Turner after the bye week despite having success with the supposedly new playcaller. It makes no sense.

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I don't see how what you're saying is not speculation, but what im saying is based off of a "common sense" standpoint and this huge rumor going around that shurmur was running with sammy for a few weeks teaching him the playbook.


Because my view is based on what was actually reported during the period leading up to Bradford starting at QB and in the wake of those early starts. It's also based on the fact that Turner was the offensive coordinator and on Zimmer's recent statement that he gave Turner "almost 100 percent, total free will" in everything the Vikings did on offense. I have yet to see a shred of convincing evidence that suggests Zimmer relieved Turner of playcalling duties for weeks and then returned them to him after the bye.

On top of all that, the Eagles and Bears took away some of the routes the Vikes were using successfully in the games before the bye and Bradford and his receivers didn't play as well after the bye. All of that is on film. There were multiple plays where Bradford missed open receivers because of an inaccurate throw or because the receiver didn't run his route correctly. We alls aw how much pressure the Bears and eagles were able to get against the Vikes incompetent o-line. There are perfectly reasonable explanations for what's occurred that don't necessitate buying into a theory that operates on the premise that everything bad was the fault of the guy who's leaving and his successor was responsible for everything good we've seen from the offense this season with Bradford at QB. That's a theory of convenience. Blame the outgoing coach, believe in the new coach. Rinse and repeat.

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I know turner is the OC but there isn't a chance in hell that you go vs Tennessee week 1, don't score an offensive td even with hill at qb, to go against an even STRONGER defense the following week, in a division game at home in a new freaking stadium and have a quarterback that has been there for barely over a week play the way he did with a known brick wall calling the plays. This is too obvious to be speculation


It's a theory without firm evidence to support it so by definition, it's speculation.

Bradford's a better QB than Hill. That's the obvious explanation for the difference in TDs between weeks 1 and 2. It's why they traded a first round pick and more for him rather than just going with Hill. He has skills and abilities superior to those of his backup.


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
PurpleMustReign wrote:
Good posts, Jim.


Thank you.

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It is Zimmers team, not Norv's or Shurmur's or Edwards... Zimmer is the head coach... If any part of the team is struggling, it is also on him. I remember when Tice was the coach, he routinely spent time with whichever part of the team was having trouble, and his teams were better because of it.


Exactly. I like Mike Zimmer but a head coach can't just be a glorified defensive coordinator.


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Mothman wrote:
The whole column is right on target as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad to see someone in the media pointing this stuff out.


Not surprising, Jim. In my view, Kevin Seifert has been and still is one of the best sportswriters out there. His insights about the Vikings are always good.


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
Long read...but a deep look at team stats.

http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2016/ ... t-shurmur/


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
losperros wrote:
Mothman wrote:
The whole column is right on target as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad to see someone in the media pointing this stuff out.


Not surprising, Jim. In my view, Kevin Seifert has been and still is one of the best sportswriters out there. His insights about the Vikings are always good.



I agree. I think he's one of the best and I miss the days when he was covering the Vikes on a daily basis.


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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
So ... how about the offense today in the first game post-Norv?

I think there were some promising signs -- quicker plays, better offensive line play (at least on passing plays -- only two sacks for this line is a MAJOR win), getting more players involved (even Laquon Treadwell!), more imagination on first down.

I also liked some of the creativity in the Vikings' plays today, particularly the use of Linval Joseph in the backfield, which resulted in two touchdowns. I also liked Shurmur's willingness to get Cordarrelle Patterson involved in a major way. I look for good things out of CP going forward.

But then, the old issues cropped up again. Inability to establish a running game, problems in the red zone, untimely penalties.

What's the consensus? What are you guys thinking? I know it's only one game, but are we seeing anything?

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Post Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
So ... how about the offense today in the first game post-Norv?

I think there were some promising signs -- quicker plays, better offensive line play (at least on passing plays -- only two sacks for this line is a MAJOR win), getting more players involved (even Laquon Treadwell!), more imagination on first down.

I also liked some of the creativity in the Vikings' plays today, particularly the use of Linval Joseph in the backfield, which resulted in two touchdowns. I also liked Shurmur's willingness to get Cordarrelle Patterson involved in a major way. I look for good things out of CP going forward.

But then, the old issues cropped up again. Inability to establish a running game, problems in the red zone, untimely penalties.

What's the consensus? What are you guys thinking? I know it's only one game, but are we seeing anything?


I liked that they were able to move the ball and get in the endzone. Can't fix everything overnight but the offense looked better than it did the past two weeks. Both plays with Linval (who was basically a decoy) were both nicely drawn up and executed. I would like to see Bradford hit on some of those longer throws, he lead the receiver too much on a few of them.


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