Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

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Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Mothman » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:09 am

the title is meant to be a play on words because Shurmur will call plays from the sidelines, not the booth:

http://www.twincities.com/2016/11/03/mn ... ago-bears/
Shurmur takes over an offense that ranks next-to-last in the NFL in total yards (293.3 per game) and rushing yards (71.9), and has had Bradford sacked 11 times in the past two games. He says he is not planning any big play-calling changes heading into Sunday’s game against Detroit at U.S. Bank Stadium.

“I don’t think you totally change what we’re doing offensively,” Shurmur said. “There’s certain things that may look different. … I think what we need to do is coach better, we need to play better.”
“He said our main focus is let’s figure out what we do really well and go from there and get back on track,” fullback Zach Line said.
Just so it's clear, Line is referring to Shurmur.
“It’s important first that we take care of the football,” Shurmur said. “We have an extremely good defense, we play great on special teams. … It’s important that we’re efficient running the football. We’ve got to find a way in the passing game to also be efficient.”
I don't think anyone is quite sure what to expect from the Vikes offense on Sunday. It should be interesting. I sure hope they can beat the Lions and get back on track. As Irish Viking pointed out the other day, it's been almost a month since we've seen a good Vikings football game (they played the texans on October 9th).
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by mansquatch » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:23 am

Has any team so thoroughly evaporated their fans hopes and expectations in a shorter time?

I'm curious to see where they go. When he says "what we are good at" is he referring to the guys up front or the skill guys? Probably a mix of both, but I suspect the the "range" for the phrase in the quotes above is far smaller for the former group than the latter. At least at this point in the season.

My thought is we'll see more short stuff on the outside, more quick passes, and more straight ahead running. The most concerning thing for me on Monday was the fact that the interior guys couldn't get any push off the LOS. We all know the issues at Tackle. The Interior guys are all supposedly still healthy and our original starting cast. If they can't get push then our rushing attack is thoroughly doomed.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Norv Zimmer » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:31 am

Well, it seems like Boone is more than likely out for the game Sunday. I have liked what I see from Sirles though, I think the Norv resignation is going to light a fire under the defense and hopefully the offense can pull it together and have a solid game.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by losperros » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:12 am

Mothman wrote: Just so it's clear, Line is referring to Shurmur.
Shurmur is so right about this. Personally, I doubt the Vikings can fix things quickly enough to be a top offense. But if they can play even average NFL ball offensively, that will be a big improvement. They will have to focus on their strengths to do that.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by vikeinmontana » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:54 am

we could use every offensive coordinator in the league this season. if something, anything isn't done to improve the play on the offensive line, it doesn't matter. I've seen average o-lines. bad o-lines. even close to terrible o-lines. ours currently takes the cake. without trying to sound over the top, this is the worst offensive line play I can ever recall seeing. it's one thing to be average. but these guys should frankly be embarrassed by their effort and performance.

I knew our running game would struggle this season. even with AP I didn't think we were a team that would average 100 yards on the ground. it's annoying, but for me it was expected. but now that teams have learned to take away the quick routes and screen passes, Bradford is in a dire situation. we simply MUST find a way to get this kid even a few seconds to let a route develop. if not, we're screwed.

on a related note, i'm always fascinated with how nfl teams are able to study and evolve. our style of offense we were allowed to run the first month of the season has been all but taken away. currently defenses are one step ahead of our offense. we need to turn the tables and come up with some new schemes and protections going forward. if we can do that I think we're still a pretty good team.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by halfgiz » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:32 pm

vikeinmontana wrote:
I knew our running game would struggle this season. even with AP I didn't think we were a team that would average 100 yards on the ground. it's annoying, but for me it was expected..
I didn't think in the beginning of the season our OL would struggle that much.
Last year:
Kalil
Fusco
Berger
Clemmings
AP ran for 2000 yards

This year:
Kalil
Boone - improvement
Berger
Fusco
Smith improvement over Clemmings

Current:
Long
Boone
Berger
Fusco
Clemmings
3 of last years starters on the line and we have been bad.
Why is that??
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Boon » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:27 pm

vikeinmontana wrote:
on a related note, i'm always fascinated with how nfl teams are able to study and evolve. our style of offense we were allowed to run the first month of the season has been all but taken away.
No, someone else was doing that. Offense was "dumbed down" and Bradford was shredding people. It wasn't quick stuff either. A lot of the routes were 20+ yard hits . we can sit here and speculate about closed door stuff til the sun goes down, but it is EXTREMELY odd that Bradford was putting up 100 QBR games and lighting it up when the offense was "dumbed down" and all of a sudden things went downhill in a hurry after the bye. all of a sudden nobody is getting open, all of a sudden he's getting sacked a lot. All of a sudden.


Wonder how they "dumbed it down", if you ask me it was a different set of plays, being called by the current OC because of his familiarity with the new QB
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by S197 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:32 pm

Norv Zimmer wrote:Well, it seems like Boone is more than likely out for the game Sunday. I have liked what I see from Sirles though, I think the Norv resignation is going to light a fire under the defense and hopefully the offense can pull it together and have a solid game.
Just what we needed. Wonder who they'll stick in there, Easton?
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Mothman » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:36 pm

Boon wrote: No, someone else was doing that. Offense was "dumbed down" and Bradford was shredding people. It wasn't quick stuff either. A lot of the routes were 20+ yard hits . we can sit here and speculate about closed door stuff til the sun goes down, but it is EXTREMELY odd that Bradford was putting up 100 QBR games and lighting it up when the offense was "dumbed down" and all of a sudden things went downhill in a hurry after the bye. all of a sudden nobody is getting open, all of a sudden he's getting sacked a lot. All of a sudden.
You make it sound like they were shredding defenses before the bye. It's not that strange. The Vikes spent a month putting their tendencies on film. Teams saw how they were adapting their offense to Bradford and to compensate for their poor line and running game and put together effective game plans to stop it. The Bears and Eagles both have top 10 defenses (with some help from the Vikings). They both matched up well with the Vikes offense.
Wonder how they "dumbed it down", if you ask me it was a different set of plays, being called by the current OC because of his familiarity with the new QB
Find some evidence and you might have a case but at this point, it sounds like nothing more than confirmation bias. If it went badly, it must have been Norv. If it went well, it must have been someone else...
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by mansquatch » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:58 pm

halfgiz wrote: I didn't think in the beginning of the season our OL would struggle that much.
Last year:
Kalil
Fusco
Berger
Clemmings
AP ran for 2000 yards

This year:
Kalil
Boone - improvement
Berger
Fusco
Smith improvement over Clemmings

Current:
Long
Boone
Berger
Fusco
Clemmings
3 of last years starters on the line and we have been bad.
Why is that??
I think in March of 2016 they thought that the line would be this:

Kalil
Boone
Sullivan
Harris
Loadholt

Please note that had we fielded this line sans Sullivan it likely would not have been league worst. Then Sullivan got cut, Harris went MIA, and Loadholt went fishing. So that line never was to be. Before Training camp starts, we had lost 3 out of 5 pieces, in retrospect that should have been the warning of impending disaster. Spielman and co should have done more at this point, IMO. Sullivan never caught on anywhere else after they cut him (a telling sign) and they knew they were deeply vulnerable at Tackle. It left us with:

Kalil
Boone
Berger
Fusco
Smith

Then injuries happened and we signed Jake Long:

Long
Boone
Berger
Fusco
Clemmings

It really isn't hard to see why we suck. We've got basically the worst of last season's debacle (Clemmings/Fusco) plus we are down Kalil and Harris. (Harris, along with Berger, was one of the lone bright spots in 2015.) Kalil, who even in the face of his inconsistency is the best tackle on the roster. Basically this year is more trash on top of last season's trash, plus a total band-aid/duct tape solution at LT. Alex Boone has been at best a side-grade to Fusco at LG. Our best linemen is aging Joe Berger. Not a recipe for success.

I have to admit I'm not optimistic on the OL at this point. Every solution they tried last year unraveled, most of it before the regular season even started. Calamity hit in Week 2. Are they really going to get more out of Clemmings and Fusco? At this point it will be a surprise. Fusco hasn't been the same since he tore his Pec in 2014 and Clemmings unfortunately continues to be the same.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Demi » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:39 am

Different view..fine. His history doesn't inspire confidence. He's different than Norv. But his history shouldn't really inspire confidence. But at least we won't be seeing Norv's offense. Which is fine if you have the talent. We don't. Which was why Shurmur was signed in the first place. The front offense clearly knew the talent they had, the OC they had, and wanted Shurmur just in case. Well, it's just in case time. Shurmur hasn't shown much in his previous stops. Norv did. When he had the talent. Shurmer didn't, regardless of the talent.

It's frustrating. The front office knew there might be issues before the season began. And the season began...and there were issues. Can Shurmur make a difference? Likely. Enough? Doubtful. Same ole Vikings. One dimensional team. Norv wasn't the answer. From the second they drafted a QB who had no way to succeed in his offense. And traded for another who likely couldn't succeed in it. If you're running an offense with this type of talent, and a focus from the head coach that focuses on defense, you need the talent, or the coach, who can make the most out of the talent on the other side of the ball. I don't think Norv or Shurmur is that guy. Shurmur is closer than Norv, but looking at the history, he isn't the answer either. We'll see moving forward, but likely they'll be in the same situation after the season is over. Either focus on the talent, and guys getting healthy, or a coach who is willing to do whatever he can to get the best out of what he has. There are guys out there that can do that, will the team target one? Who knows. But right not, you can't stick with what Norv is going to do, regardless of talent. He ran his offense with Teddy and scraps, and every one saw what was happening. Including the GM.

This team needed a new guy to coordinate the offense regardless. Can Shurmur do it? Doubtful. Even if everyone was healthy. Zimmer is a guy who can maximize defensive play, regardless of talent. Norv is on the low end of that offensive spectrum. Shurmur isn't on the top end, from his past jobs. Now is the time to start building a *team*, and find an offensive coach. This team has been one dimensional for too long. Based on trades, picks, hires. It's painfully obviously what this team needs, as it has been. Are the people in place to make the moves to fill those holes? I doubt it. But I doubted it when those people were given the power to make those decisions. Let's hope I'm wrong, but the questions are much more clear now than they have been since Favre was signed. And the decision makers made some questionable decisions after that.

Including the Norv/Shurmur silliness that was obvious before this season began. After seeing it play out like this...why? Ownership? General Manager? :wallbang:
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Boon » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:06 pm

Demi wrote:Different view..fine. His history doesn't inspire confidence. He's different than Norv. But his history shouldn't really inspire confidence.
Doesn't really have much of a history. But his 3 years in philly as OC and interim coach were fielding nfl offensive ranks of 2nd, 5th and 12th, despite having nick foles and mark sanchez, and Chip Kelly's crap system which he was running. Last year they would have been higher had it not been for penalties and a horrible drop rate. You're right, its not much overall but these last 3 years of him as an oc are quite promising actually.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Purple Martin » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:49 pm

Demi wrote:Different view..fine. His history doesn't inspire confidence. He's different than Norv. But his history shouldn't really inspire confidence. But at least we won't be seeing Norv's offense. Which is fine if you have the talent. We don't. Which was why Shurmur was signed in the first place. The front offense clearly knew the talent they had, the OC they had, and wanted Shurmur just in case. Well, it's just in case time. Shurmur hasn't shown much in his previous stops. Norv did. When he had the talent. Shurmer didn't, regardless of the talent.

It's frustrating. The front office knew there might be issues before the season began. And the season began...and there were issues. Can Shurmur make a difference? Likely. Enough? Doubtful. Same ole Vikings. One dimensional team. Norv wasn't the answer. From the second they drafted a QB who had no way to succeed in his offense. And traded for another who likely couldn't succeed in it. If you're running an offense with this type of talent, and a focus from the head coach that focuses on defense, you need the talent, or the coach, who can make the most out of the talent on the other side of the ball. I don't think Norv or Shurmur is that guy. Shurmur is closer than Norv, but looking at the history, he isn't the answer either. We'll see moving forward, but likely they'll be in the same situation after the season is over. Either focus on the talent, and guys getting healthy, or a coach who is willing to do whatever he can to get the best out of what he has. There are guys out there that can do that, will the team target one? Who knows. But right not, you can't stick with what Norv is going to do, regardless of talent. He ran his offense with Teddy and scraps, and every one saw what was happening. Including the GM.

This team needed a new guy to coordinate the offense regardless. Can Shurmur do it? Doubtful. Even if everyone was healthy. Zimmer is a guy who can maximize defensive play, regardless of talent. Norv is on the low end of that offensive spectrum. Shurmur isn't on the top end, from his past jobs. Now is the time to start building a *team*, and find an offensive coach. This team has been one dimensional for too long. Based on trades, picks, hires. It's painfully obviously what this team needs, as it has been. Are the people in place to make the moves to fill those holes? I doubt it. But I doubted it when those people were given the power to make those decisions. Let's hope I'm wrong, but the questions are much more clear now than they have been since Favre was signed. And the decision makers made some questionable decisions after that.

Including the Norv/Shurmur silliness that was obvious before this season began. After seeing it play out like this...why? Ownership? General Manager? :wallbang:

Wait till we play at least few games with Shurmur before you write him off, OK? If we still suck I'll help you do it. I guess you think we should just wave the white flag now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVNuyfhF0Q
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by Mothman » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:09 pm

Purple Martin wrote:Wait till we play at least few games with Shurmur before you write him off, OK? If we still suck I'll help you do it. I guess you think we should just wave the white flag now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVNuyfhF0Q
:lol: Well-linked.
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Re: Shurmur takes different view of offense than Norv Turner

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:08 pm

Norv has had success in the past, but his recent track record is anything but stellar. Over the past five seasons (San Diego, Cleveland, and the Vikings counting this season) Norv's offenses have ranked 26th or worse in total yards four times. The only time his team didn't finish in the bottom 6 of total yards was with Cleveland in 2013, when the Browns finished 16th in yards but 27th in scoring. Whatever magic Norv had earlier in his career, he seems to have lost it.

So ... will things actually improve under Shurmur? Comments like these give me hope ...
Pat Shurmur wrote:"Sometimes you have a favorite play or you have a concept that you think should work but you don't have the players to execute it," Shurmur said. "I think it's very important to first look and see who your players are, who the guys are that you're working with and what things they do best. That's what you learn over time."
Here's the link.

How many times have we criticized Norv for trying to shoehorn players into his system? Shurmur seems to have a much different attitude. Hopefully it manifests itself into actual improvement.
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