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 Norv Turner Resigns as OC 
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
I would argue that Teddy regressed a little bit if anything. Certainly he didn't show any big improvement. Coming from Chicago, I am automatically suspicious of ANY coach who gets their job thru nepotism. Norv Jr should never have gotten the job . It reeks of nepotism.


Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:00 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
chicagopurple wrote:
I would argue that Teddy regressed a little bit if anything.


I would too but others saw it differently.

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Certainly he didn't show any big improvement. Coming from Chicago, I am automatically suspicious of ANY coach who gets their job thru nepotism. Norv Jr should never have gotten the job . It reeks of nepotism.


Zimmer's son Adam is the LB coach too.


Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:43 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Hiring friends is also fraught with danger. I can't help but think that Turner would have been fired long ago if he wasn't old chums with Zimmer. Certainly almost any other head coach would have fired him by now.

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:22 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
The thing with the NFL is you have very small windows of opportunity. Just look at the Cardinals, Panthers, and Seahawks this year compared to last year and the year before. The NFC in particular has been a proverbial rotating champion. This year it looks like Dallas. Dallas was terrible last year.

You have outliers like New England but even they have shown their weakness without their best player on the field.

I think a good GM builds a team that is in the hunt every year. With the salary cap, contracts, and free agency you simply cannot build a team that gets to the top and stays there for years and years. This isn't the SEC. That's why I say this team is good, I think the nucleus is there for the team to be talked about with the best of them for years to come. But when you lose your best player and the majority of your offensive line, it's going to hurt! Look at the Patriots vs the Bills with and without Brady. Night and day.

I think what the team needs to strive to be is a team that's talked about year in and year out. A Green Bay, Seattle, Denver, etc. It's any given Sunday so once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. Just look at last year, we lost on paper but did we really lose that game? Hell no. We lost on a missed chip shot FG. We had Seattle beat.

This is why I'm a little easier on Spielman than some others. You want to build a contender and I think that's what we have. 11 wins last year and what should have been a playoff win. Top of the division right now despite the injuries. That's hard for me to shrug off.


Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:23 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Mothman wrote:
It's certainly possible but is Shurmur actually a better coach than Turner? I don't know.


I see them about equal as far as football knowledge and coaching probably goes but hopefully Shurmurs ideas and strategies can mesh better with our current roster.

S197 wrote:
The thing with the NFL is you have very small windows of opportunity. Just look at the Cardinals, Panthers, and Seahawks this year compared to last year and the year before. The NFC in particular has been a proverbial rotating champion. This year it looks like Dallas. Dallas was terrible last year.

You have outliers like New England but even they have shown their weakness without their best player on the field.

I think a good GM builds a team that is in the hunt every year. With the salary cap, contracts, and free agency you simply cannot build a team that gets to the top and stays there for years and years. This isn't the SEC. That's why I say this team is good, I think the nucleus is there for the team to be talked about with the best of them for years to come. But when you lose your best player and the majority of your offensive line, it's going to hurt! Look at the Patriots vs the Bills with and without Brady. Night and day.

I think what the team needs to strive to be is a team that's talked about year in and year out. A Green Bay, Seattle, Denver, etc. It's any given Sunday so once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. Just look at last year, we lost on paper but did we really lose that game? Hell no. We lost on a missed chip shot FG. We had Seattle beat.

This is why I'm a little easier on Spielman than some others. You want to build a contender and I think that's what we have. 11 wins last year and what should have been a playoff win. Top of the division right now despite the injuries. That's hard for me to shrug off.



Nice post, they certainly have their issues but I think it's safe to say we're basically a couple solid O-lineman from where we want to be. Of course getting those lineman is proving to be a daunting task....


Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:33 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
NOt that I want to praise GB ( it gives me hives) but much like the Pats, they have a knack for always finding unknown, mid-range salary guys to work their OL....if they lose one, they find one. Not superstars, no big salary commitment...just solid guys. It important, its an unavoidable necessity, and Spielman has shown no interest or ability to do so.


Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:38 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
S197 wrote:
The thing with the NFL is you have very small windows of opportunity. Just look at the Cardinals, Panthers, and Seahawks this year compared to last year and the year before. The NFC in particular has been a proverbial rotating champion. This year it looks like Dallas. Dallas was terrible last year.

You have outliers like New England but even they have shown their weakness without their best player on the field.

I think a good GM builds a team that is in the hunt every year. With the salary cap, contracts, and free agency you simply cannot build a team that gets to the top and stays there for years and years. This isn't the SEC. That's why I say this team is good, I think the nucleus is there for the team to be talked about with the best of them for years to come. But when you lose your best player and the majority of your offensive line, it's going to hurt! Look at the Patriots vs the Bills with and without Brady. Night and day.


Yes, but they were down to their 3rd string QB and they only lost 1 of 4 games without Brady. New England absolutely shows that with the right combination of coaching, personnel management and talent a team still can get to the top and stay there for years and years. They've had 15 straight winning seasons and they're well on their way to a 16th. Heck, the last time they finished with fewer than 10 wins was in 2002.

To a lesser extent, there are other teams that show sustained, competitive success is possible in this era. Green Bay has made 8 playoff appearances in 9 years and won a Super Bowl during that span. The Steelers have also been in playoff contention for most of the past decade and they've won 2 Super Bowls in that span. In other words, you're right that windows of opportunity to win a championship can be small but they don't have to be small, even in this era.

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I think what the team needs to strive to be is a team that's talked about year in and year out. A Green Bay, Seattle, Denver, etc. It's any given Sunday so once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. Just look at last year, we lost on paper but did we really lose that game? Hell no.


Hell yes. The Vikings really lost that game. Close doesn't count as a win. It's just close.

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This is why I'm a little easier on Spielman than some others. You want to build a contender and I think that's what we have. 11 wins last year and what should have been a playoff win. Top of the division right now despite the injuries. That's hard for me to shrug off.


Being on top of the division right now gets them nothing. I'm not shrugging it off but I am keeping it in perspective. The struggles they've had on offense this season and the two decisive losses they've just suffered aren't easy to shrug off either. We both know the season's not over at 7 games. 5 wins is just 5 wins. It doesn't guarantee a playoff spot or a division title or a winning season. Those are all goals I hope they will achieve but the season's not a success because the team started it on a winning streak. 5-2 makes them contender at this point in the season, but it doesn't make them one at the end of the season.

11 wins last year was great. They had a playoff team for one season under Frazier too. They made the playoffs 2 seasons in a row under Childress. Can they sustain it this time? Can they build on it? That remains an open question and it sure looks to me like it could go either way. I want to see them build a team that's in the hunt every year. I hope they're on their way to doing that but it remains a goal, not an accomplishment they've actually achieved. Only time will tell if that's the trajectory they're on.

Spielman's made a number of good draft picks over the years. He and Zimmer have put together an impressive defense but it's one thing to draft talented players and build up one unit on a team. It's another to fill in the gaps on a roster and put together a team that's a legitimate contender for a good 7+ years or more importantly, a team that will actually win a Super Bowl. I'm far from convinced he can do that.


Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:10 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
S197 wrote:
The thing with the NFL is you have very small windows of opportunity. Just look at the Cardinals, Panthers, and Seahawks this year compared to last year and the year before. The NFC in particular has been a proverbial rotating champion. This year it looks like Dallas. Dallas was terrible last year.

You have outliers like New England but even they have shown their weakness without their best player on the field.

I think a good GM builds a team that is in the hunt every year. With the salary cap, contracts, and free agency you simply cannot build a team that gets to the top and stays there for years and years. This isn't the SEC. That's why I say this team is good, I think the nucleus is there for the team to be talked about with the best of them for years to come. But when you lose your best player and the majority of your offensive line, it's going to hurt! Look at the Patriots vs the Bills with and without Brady. Night and day.

I think what the team needs to strive to be is a team that's talked about year in and year out. A Green Bay, Seattle, Denver, etc. It's any given Sunday so once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. Just look at last year, we lost on paper but did we really lose that game? Hell no. We lost on a missed chip shot FG. We had Seattle beat.

This is why I'm a little easier on Spielman than some others. You want to build a contender and I think that's what we have. 11 wins last year and what should have been a playoff win. Top of the division right now despite the injuries. That's hard for me to shrug off.

The thing with New England is that everyone thinks Brady is the best player on the team. I disagree. Brady is good. But how many time has he been on the sideline and the Pats not miss a beat? They are put together as a team, no real superstars that have to be there. Sure Gronk is important, but without him they can still win. Same with Brady. Take him out and they still win. Name one WR that ever left New England that went on to big season elsewhere? Not many. New England is a team built for the long haul, built up defensively, (they have a consistent top 10 defense year in and year out) with complimenting players. Thing is, once Belicheat leaves, they are screwed.

The Vikings appear to be trying to build the team like New England. One for the long haul.

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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Raptorman wrote:
S197 wrote:
The thing with the NFL is you have very small windows of opportunity. Just look at the Cardinals, Panthers, and Seahawks this year compared to last year and the year before. The NFC in particular has been a proverbial rotating champion. This year it looks like Dallas. Dallas was terrible last year.

You have outliers like New England but even they have shown their weakness without their best player on the field.

I think a good GM builds a team that is in the hunt every year. With the salary cap, contracts, and free agency you simply cannot build a team that gets to the top and stays there for years and years. This isn't the SEC. That's why I say this team is good, I think the nucleus is there for the team to be talked about with the best of them for years to come. But when you lose your best player and the majority of your offensive line, it's going to hurt! Look at the Patriots vs the Bills with and without Brady. Night and day.

I think what the team needs to strive to be is a team that's talked about year in and year out. A Green Bay, Seattle, Denver, etc. It's any given Sunday so once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. Just look at last year, we lost on paper but did we really lose that game? Hell no. We lost on a missed chip shot FG. We had Seattle beat.

This is why I'm a little easier on Spielman than some others. You want to build a contender and I think that's what we have. 11 wins last year and what should have been a playoff win. Top of the division right now despite the injuries. That's hard for me to shrug off.

The thing with New England is that everyone thinks Brady is the best player on the team. I disagree. Brady is good. But how many time has he been on the sideline and the Pats not miss a beat? They are put together as a team, no real superstars that have to be there. Sure Gronk is important, but without him they can still win. Same with Brady. Take him out and they still win. Name one WR that ever left New England that went on to big season elsewhere? Not many. New England is a team built for the long haul, built up defensively, (they have a consistent top 10 defense year in and year out) with complimenting players. Thing is, once Belicheat leaves, they are screwed.

The Vikings appear to be trying to build the team like New England. One for the long haul.


Well they lost to the Bills 16-0 without Brady and beat the Bills 41-25 with Brady. They've certainly showed they can win without him but the outcome of those games speak for themselves. My main point being anytime you lose your "MVP" player, you're bound to struggle. Green Bay isn't the same without Rodgers, Seattle isn't the same with a gimpy Wilson, and the Vikings are not the same without Peterson. That's all I'm saying.

I think everyone wants to emulate the Patriots, it's certainly a goal worth shooting for. This team right now feels like the Falcons. They can go on long winning streaks and look very good at times but for whatever reason fall just short of putting it all together. Hopefully they can continue to improve to the point where they are a NE or GB type of franchise.


Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:00 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Mothman wrote:

Thielen has definitely improved and Line has too. Actually, Patterson's route running has improved too.


Patterson didn't improve. He had 9 touchdowns under musgrave, he only has one this year and hasn't really played the last two years. He might improve now but turner had nothing to do with anything. In that same breath im calling treadwell getting significant snaps vs detroit. watch.


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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Mothman wrote:

Spielman's made a number of good draft picks over the years. He and Zimmer have put together an impressive defense but it's one thing to draft talented players and build up one unit on a team. It's another to fill in the gaps on a roster and put together a team that's a legitimate contender for a good 7+ years or more importantly, a team that will actually win a Super Bowl. I'm far from convinced he can do that.



Even the teams that compete year in and year out, like the Patriots, packers and Seahawks have holes on their rosters. The one thing the Vikings haven't had under Spielman is a franchise QB. I agree with the philosophy that they have utilized in building a dominant defense and a capable offense. In regards to the O line, they are terrible this year but remember, Peterson did win the rushing title last year. There were also times where people blamed Bridgewater for not getting the ball out quick enough. So this sentiment that Spielman has done nothing to improve the O Line just isn't true. I was always told you can never argue how a person feels, so I'll just argue the facts. In the first three years under Zimmer they have made improvements. No team could survive what the Vikings have survived this year and look their best. it's almost irrelevant to compare this year to other teams because no team has the depth to survive the rash of injuries they survived.


Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:34 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
http://www.startribune.com/circumstances-show-vikings-pushed-out-norv-turner-in-favor-of-pat-shurmur/399757541/

Someone called this the moment shurmur got hired. Can't remember who but this is pretty much what reusse is insinuating


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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Boon wrote:
Patterson didn't improve. He had 9 touchdowns under musgrave, he only has one this year and hasn't really played the last two years.


I said his route-running has improved, not his production.


Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:01 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Mothman wrote:
Purple Martin wrote:
You're being a bit contradictory. According to you (and I agree 100%) successful teams coach up players, and it isn't happening on our offense. Name one single offensive player who has significantly improved since Norv got here. There isn't one, except maybe Thielen.


Thielen has definitely improved and Line has too. Actually, Patterson's route running has improved too. McKinnon and Diggs came in as rookies but they've played like they're well-coached and McKinnon is in a system quite different than the one he played in as a college player.

Some would argue that Bridgewater showed improvement too.

Quote:
Therefore we should be able to improve with better coaching, just as we have on defense.


It's certainly possible but is Shurmur actually a better coach than Turner? I don't know.


I don't think Bridgewater passes the test, he just had a couple good highlights in preseason play. I don't see that much "improvement" in McKinnon or Diggs. Diggs was excellent from the start. McKinnon was also pretty good out of the gate, and I haven't seen anything I'd call significant improvement in his play that you wouldn't expect just from getting experience. I'm encouraged by Patterson's attitude and very hopeful he has turned a corner, but the jury is still out on whether he'll be a regular long term contributor (and if he isn't, his improvement isn't really "significant", its meaningless). Even if I accepted all of these nominees as "improved", my real point was the comparitive dearth of players who seem well-coached compared with the defense. Zimmer came in and turned the whole D around. So did Norv, but in the opposite direction. The evidence for the offense being coached upward is sparse.

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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
losperros wrote:
Kind of sad but it badly needed to happen. I wonder if Zimmer had a conversation with Norv and this was the end result.

I don't know what Shurmur can do but I hope he can at least see the big picture, adapt the offense to play to its strengths (yes, it has some) and compensate for the weaknesses. And I hope there won't be any more pounding players into a system that doesn't fit.

If nothing else, looking ahead there is now room for a better placed offensive philosophy going into the next draft and free agency.


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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Purple Martin wrote:
I don't think Bridgewater passes the test, he just had a couple good highlights in preseason play.


I agree.

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I don't see that much "improvement" in McKinnon or Diggs. Diggs was excellent from the start. McKinnon was also pretty good out of the gate, and I haven't seen anything I'd call significant improvement in his play that you wouldn't expect just from getting experience.


My point was that getting rookies ready to play well from the start involves preparation, coaching. When a rookie like McKinnon comes into a new system, quite different from what he played in college, and adapts to it well, there's a good chance coaching helped that happen.

In most cases, the kind of improvement you're talking about probably has more to do with the position coaches than the OC anyway.

Quote:
Even if I accepted all of these nominees as "improved", my real point was the comparitive dearth of players who seem well-coached compared with the defense. Zimmer came in and turned the whole D around. So did Norv, but in the opposite direction. The evidence for the offense being coached upward is sparse.


I see your point but the measuring stick seems pretty subjective. Based on the criteria you've put forward, I don't think there are many players on defense we can point to that have significantly improved due to coaching either. It's easy to dismiss any improvement the same way. For example, most of them were either good before they got into this defense (Griffin, Joseph, Munnerlyn, Newman, etc.), played well from the start (Barr, Kendricks, etc.) or we can argue they've shown the kind of improvement you'd expect just from getting experience (Rhodes, Waynes, Sendejo). Personally, I think some of them actually have improved due to good coaching but I'm playing devil's advocate to reinforce my point about subjectivity.

I'm more inclined to look at the overall performance of the unit and the talent level of the players than how much individual improvement we've seen because I think the latter depends heavily on the individuals themselves and, as I mentioned earlier, on the position coaches.

Again, I'm not a fan of what Norv did in Minnesota. I think your point that there's sparse evidence for the offense being coached upward is right on target. I just think it has as much (if not more) to do with talent and management as it does with Turner's coaching. I don't think he made the most of the hand he was dealt so another coordinator might be able to get more out of the offense but the whole thing has been a fiasco. I see it as an indictment of Zimmer and Spielman at least as much as an indictment of Turner. The former are supposed to have a vision for the team. If you hire Norv Turner, who's been in the league running his system for a long time, you're hiring him to run that system. Consequently, it's necessary to make personnel decisions that will enable the offense to excel with that approach. Instead, they've done the opposite of what they've done with the defense.


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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
On the Patriots, two things:

1.) Brady is a HOF QB and probably the greatest pure competitor to play the position, that certainly has helped them.

2.) More importantly though is how they manage their players:

The difference between a good NFL player and a great one is small. A lot of it is attitude. Belicik has figured out how to take guys that the rest of the league considers good to average and make them good to great. He finds a way to get the extra gear out of them.

Talent still wins, but guys like Randy Moss who are so talented they can't help but succeed are very rare. It is the combination of mental strength and athletic ability that makes up most championship athletes. Look at the guy in item #1 above. He doesn't have the best physical skill set, he just has the most competitive brain.

I think Zimmer is heading in this direction, he certainly is getting a lot out of his defensive players. On offense he needs to find his compliment or start doing it himself. Somehow Belicik is able to do it on both sides of the ball. Zimmer needs to find a way to do that as well.

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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Mothman wrote:

Again, I'm not a fan of what Norv did in Minnesota. I think your point that there's sparse evidence for the offense being coached upward is right on target. I just think it has as much (if not more) to do with talent and management as it does with Turner's coaching. I don't think he made the most of the hand he was dealt so another coordinator might be able to get more out of the offense but the whole thing has been a fiasco. I see it as an indictment of Zimmer and Spielman at least as much as an indictment of Turner. The former are supposed to have a vision for the team. If you hire Norv Turner, who's been in the league running his system for a long time, you're hiring him to run that system. Consequently, it's necessary to make personnel decisions that will enable the offense to excel with that approach. Instead, they've done the opposite of what they've done with the defense.


The best part of this mid-season change is that we'll have evidence (very soon) that can help substantiate our opinions about Norv. If Shurmur can come in and make improvements to this poorly performing offense with the same dearth of talent on the OL and key players that are out due to injury it will support what some folks have argued here: that Norv was terrible at adjusting to the players he has. I personally am really looking forward to seeing how Shurmur makes use of some untapped talent on our offensive roster--especially Patterson, Treadwell (maybe?) and even Diggs (underexploited under Norv, IMO). I think even Jet will be used in a more intelligent manner under Shurmur. We are about to find out if our speculations have any merit to them at all.

I wonder if Norv will be sipping a cocktail from his armchair hoping for an utter failure on offense to feel vindicated? Must be an odd feeling for him.


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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Texas Vike wrote:
Mothman wrote:

Again, I'm not a fan of what Norv did in Minnesota. I think your point that there's sparse evidence for the offense being coached upward is right on target. I just think it has as much (if not more) to do with talent and management as it does with Turner's coaching. I don't think he made the most of the hand he was dealt so another coordinator might be able to get more out of the offense but the whole thing has been a fiasco. I see it as an indictment of Zimmer and Spielman at least as much as an indictment of Turner. The former are supposed to have a vision for the team. If you hire Norv Turner, who's been in the league running his system for a long time, you're hiring him to run that system. Consequently, it's necessary to make personnel decisions that will enable the offense to excel with that approach. Instead, they've done the opposite of what they've done with the defense.


The best part of this mid-season change is that we'll have evidence (very soon) that can help substantiate our opinions about Norv. If Shurmur can come in and make improvements to this poorly performing offense with the same dearth of talent on the OL and key players that are out due to injury it will support what some folks have argued here: that Norv was terrible at adjusting to the players he has. I personally am really looking forward to seeing how Shurmur makes use of some untapped talent on our offensive roster--especially Patterson, Treadwell (maybe?) and even Diggs (underexploited under Norv, IMO). I think even Jet will be used in a more intelligent manner under Shurmur. We are about to find out if our speculations have any merit to them at all.

I wonder if Norv will be sipping a cocktail from his armchair hoping for an utter failure on offense to feel vindicated? Must be an odd feeling for him.


He might just be tired of the Rat race. From what I have heard this could easily be a resignation based on him not having the drive anymore and realizing it and stepping back for the good of the team.


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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Texas Vike wrote:
The best part of this mid-season change is that we'll have evidence (very soon) that can help substantiate our opinions about Norv. If Shurmur can come in and make improvements to this poorly performing offense with the same dearth of talent on the OL and key players that are out due to injury it will support what some folks have argued here: that Norv was terrible at adjusting to the players he has.


It will but I think it's going to take more than a few games to make that determination. It would be wonderful if fixing the offense turned out to be as simple as changing OCs mid-season.

Quote:
I personally am really looking forward to seeing how Shurmur makes use of some untapped talent on our offensive roster--especially Patterson, Treadwell (maybe?) and even Diggs (underexploited under Norv, IMO). I think even Jet will be used in a more intelligent manner under Shurmur. We are about to find out if our speculations have any merit to them at all.


Indeed, we will. I certainly hope we see more use of Patterson in particular and I really want to see a less predictable offense. That said, other than when Shurmur was running Kelly's offense in Philadelphia, his track record as an OC and HC isn't that impressive. In addition to learning about Turner and what the offense is capable of under a different coordinator, we're going to learn more about Shurmur outside of Kelly's system. it should be interesting!

I'm not sure how on earth Shurmur is going to get around the weaknesses of the OL week after week but if he can do it, or if the line can simply play better, things could get really interesting.

Quote:
I wonder if Norv will be sipping a cocktail from his armchair hoping for an utter failure on offense to feel vindicated? Must be an odd feeling for him.


He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy.

What I'd like to know is the nature of the philosophical disagreement he and Zimmer had about how to fix the offense. Say what you will about Turner, he knows a little something about offense so I can't help wondering what their differences were. Did Turner have a good idea of how to fix the offense and was Zimmer interested in something else or vice versa?


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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
A question I have: Why do you think we'll suddenly see more of CP84 or Treadwell? Unless I missed something there is nothing that points to the conservatism in starting rookies as being a product of Norv. We've seen the same approach with Waynes on defense.

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Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:11 am
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
mansquatch wrote:
A question I have: Why do you think we'll suddenly see more of CP84 or Treadwell? Unless I missed something there is nothing that points to the conservatism in starting rookies as being a product of Norv. We've seen the same approach with Waynes on defense.



Yes, I think Zimmer is conservative too, but in one of Zimmer's recent pressers he literally said that he gave Norv "Free will" to do as he deemed appropriate on offense. I don't know WHY Norv was so hesitant to use CP84, but I know now that it was HIS choice.


Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:29 am
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
Texas Vike wrote:
mansquatch wrote:
A question I have: Why do you think we'll suddenly see more of CP84 or Treadwell? Unless I missed something there is nothing that points to the conservatism in starting rookies as being a product of Norv. We've seen the same approach with Waynes on defense.



Yes, I think Zimmer is conservative too, but in one of Zimmer's recent pressers he literally said that he gave Norv "Free will" to do as he deemed appropriate on offense. I don't know WHY Norv was so hesitant to use CP84, but I know now that it was HIS choice.


In that case, I think Norv was flat out wrong. Patterson should and could have contributed on offense last season, and he could have done more this season as well. I'm hoping Shurmur will discover CP84 is on the team and has explosive skills, and Shurmur will utilize him appropriately.

As for the conservatism of not starting rookies, I think Mansquatch is onto something. That approach happens on both offense and defense. So I think it might be Zimmer's philosophical method, which means it still may be standard operating procedure.


Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:39 am
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
mansquatch wrote:
A question I have: Why do you think we'll suddenly see more of CP84 or Treadwell? Unless I missed something there is nothing that points to the conservatism in starting rookies as being a product of Norv. We've seen the same approach with Waynes on defense.


It's norv, why people continue to ask why is remarkable.

Why do I think we'll see more? Because he didn't like or confused Patterson and didn't play him for whatever reason. And Treadwell? I think he pissed off turner with his raiders hat nonsense and turner benched him. Dude was Ole Miss #1 and had no question marks about his routes or catching ability. He wasn't raw, he was legit. ALL OF A SUDDEN he has issues running routes. Cmon now. Lets be real here. He plays his favorites. He did it in san diego, he did it on Oakland, he did it in Cleveland, and he sure as hell did it in Minnesota. Get in his doghouse, don't see the field. Doesn't matter what it's for. So glad that dude is gone


Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:14 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
You can't compare Waynes and Treadwell. Waynes actually saw the field as a rookie and we all know why he wasn't seeing the field more, because he was grabby mcgrabberson. We all saw it in the preseason. Know what I saw from Treadwell in the preseason? A red zone bully who has a Dez Bryant like catch radius, but yet he hasn't seen the field. This is not a conspiracy, it couldn't be any more obvious that Turner wasn't starting Treadwell JUST BECAUSE.


Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
I'm sorry but you guys are not providing evidence, you are providing opinion. Waynes was kept on a very tight leash last year only seeing the field when injuries required it and on Special Teams. There are similiarities to how Treadwell is being treated. Maybe they are coincidental, maybe not, but that is my question. There are folks on here who have CONCLUDED that was because of Norv. My question is why have you concluded that? What is your evidence?

How do you conclude it was all Norv when Waynes has been treated similarly and he plays on defense?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just not finding the current reasoning very persuasive.

I think we'll see different play calling with Shurmur, but I'm not convinced the handling of Rookies will change at all.

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Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:43 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
losperros wrote:
In that case, I think Norv was flat out wrong. Patterson should and could have contributed on offense last season, and he could have done more this season as well. I'm hoping Shurmur will discover CP84 is on the team and has explosive skills, and Shurmur will utilize him appropriately.

As for the conservatism of not starting rookies, I think Mansquatch is onto something. That approach happens on both offense and defense. So I think it might be Zimmer's philosophical method, which means it still may be standard operating procedure.


They've started some rookies so it seems to be a choice they make on a case by case basis.


Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:12 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
"So I think it might be Zimmer's philosophical method."


There ya go, Jim. Maybe that's part of the philosophical difference between Zimmer and Norv that led him to resign. Maybe not.


Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:27 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
PacificNorseWest wrote:
"So I think it might be Zimmer's philosophical method."


There ya go, Jim. Maybe that's part of the philosophical difference between Zimmer and Norv that led him to resign. Maybe not.



Wait... what are you quoting? I think I missed something.


Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:38 pm
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Post Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC
mansquatch wrote:
I'm sorry but you guys are not providing evidence, you are providing opinion.



Speaking for only myself, I referred to evidence from Zimmer's presser that revealed an important fact. Here's what I posted elsewhere:

Quote:
My suspicion proved accurate. In his post-Norv resignation presser Zimmer says: "Since Norv has been here I've given him almost 100% free will on everything they've done offensively."

http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/vide ... 802bc89611

(@ about 2:50 mark)


Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:59 pm
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