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 It's panic time  
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Post Re: It's panic time
akvikingsfan wrote:
soflavike wrote:
Now that Jake Long is done (it seems so, anyway), our OL is in full panic mode.


Do we even have an O-Line anymore? I feel like they're all injured.



Vikings are now on their second right guard, third right tackle(if you include Loadholt), and fourth left tackle.


Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:07 pm
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Post Re: It's panic time
Yeah, the slide sucks, but given the guys who are hurt it isn't shocking.

It really sucks that the trade for Bradford worked in the sense that we get a guy who can play competent as a QB, but the rest of the offense outside of WR is hurt, pathetic, or both and thus despite the trade working out, it is actually going to hurt us next season. This is the worst year for injuries I can remember:

Starting QB
Starting LT
Starting RT
Backup LT
Starting RB
Starting DT (Floyd)

We've had our starting nickel back miss games, we've had OG miss games, we've had starting LB miss games, our back up RB missed time, we saw S miss time, and our starting CB miss time. This is the most injury plagued year I've ever seen. And the worst part is we not going to reap the consolation of the high draft pick. I think the injury report has reached a level that we simply can no longer overcome. Really sad too, we are looking like we've got potential as a passing team with this WR group. But the OL and RB are atrocious.

UGH!


The mystery for me is the Defense. The Offense being a dumpster fire isn't a shock when you look above at that list. But what happened to our defense? Where are our sacks? How coome we are seeing so many big plays all of a sudden? What is up with Barr?

IMO, it is mental. They see how horrible the offense is and probably have stopped believing a championship run is possible.

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Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:18 pm
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Post Re: It's panic time
Its not even like the RB corps is that bad. McKinnon, Asiata and Hillman seems decent enough. Its all the line injuries that makes that running back committee look so bad.

Its hard for any team to lose its QB, RB and 3 offensive lineman. 5-4 with the last two games being winnable is nuts.


Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:34 pm
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Post Re: It's panic time
mansquatch wrote:
Yeah, the slide sucks, but given the guys who are hurt it isn't shocking.

It really sucks that the trade for Bradford worked in the sense that we get a guy who can play competent as a QB, but the rest of the offense outside of WR is hurt, pathetic, or both and thus despite the trade working out, it is actually going to hurt us next season. This is the worst year for injuries I can remember:


It was really bad in 2011 and things got pretty bad on that front in 2013 too. That's not meant to be dismissive because they've been hit hard by injuries this year but this team has experienced serious injury hardship in the recent past.

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The mystery for me is the Defense. The Offense being a dumpster fire isn't a shock when you look above at that list. But what happened to our defense? Where are our sacks? How coome we are seeing so many big plays all of a sudden? What is up with Barr?


Zimmer plays a risky brand of defense and like any scheme, it relies on heavily the right, healthy personnel to succeed. It also leans heavily on the success of the pass rush and when teams prepare for it and are able to handle that rush well enough, they can make big plays.

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IMO, it is mental. They see how horrible the offense is and probably have stopped believing a championship run is possible.


I think that's a factor too.


Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:35 pm
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Post Re: It's panic time
Mothman wrote:
mansquatch wrote:
Quote:
The mystery for me is the Defense. The Offense being a dumpster fire isn't a shock when you look above at that list. But what happened to our defense? Where are our sacks? How come we are seeing so many big plays all of a sudden? What is up with Barr?


Zimmer plays a risky brand of defense and like any scheme, it relies on heavily the right, healthy personnel to succeed. It also leans heavily on the success of the pass rush and when teams prepare for it and are able to handle that rush well enough, they can make big plays.


I'm just hoping the five game winning streak isn't the end of the defense being dominant. Because I don't believe the offense will be fully fixed (or fixed at all) this season. The Vikings need their strong D back.

There are injuries but Zimmer still should be able to get the D talent on the field to play better. That includes the pass rush.

As for Barr, I don't think he's been bad. Maybe not perfect but he's near the ball and pursues hard. I read an article about him recently explaining Barr's duties on the field and how he's actually fulfilling his role, though his stats may be suffering. All he currently needs are better performances around him.


Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:40 am
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Post Re: It's panic time
This year is a very big lesson/reminder to fans about how much of football is mental. A Chicago team that made us look utterly pathetic lost to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers by over 20 points on Sunday. That Bears team and roster is no where near the class of this Vikings roster, yet the Vikings looked like garbage against them and continue to play like it. With exceptions at OL and maybe RB, there isn't a talent issue. It is all mental. The team is totally in the tank and desperately needs to find a way out.

If there were ever a coaching challenge, this is it. This squad could still go on a bit of a run if it can get that first win and get some of it's swagger back.

From a longer term point of view, I wonder what Zimmer will take away from this season. In a lot of ways the complete meltdown is on his shoulders. This team had a ton of swagger going into that bye week and then it just melted down. That is a pure and simple coaching issue. The Eagles loss was tolerable, albeit ugly. But then to not get a win against the Lions and Bear, both of whom are not good football teams, (Yes I know the Lions are tops of the NFC North, they are BAD.) seems to have just devastated the psyche of this team.

Another victim of this season is Blair Walsh. In many ways his mental (headcase) issues are a microcosm of the challenges facing this team. He could have helped lift them over the Lions and instead he turned out another bad performance and helped them stay in the tank. (Where he has been for over a year.) That game wasn't all his fault, but there were several specific plays where if he did his job they would have won. He is currently the worst extra point kicker in the entire NFL. My guess is no matter what else happens in the draft next year, they are taking a kicker. Walsh and his inconsistency as a kicker are a huge negative on a team that can't score at will. They are going to ship him out the door ASAP. We've seen several games now that were wins which he threw away.

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Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:28 am
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Post Re: It's panic time
This year is NOT a mental issue. It is a lack of talent on the Ol that took a toll on all other aspects of the team over time. With an Offense unable to mount any run game the defense was asked to carry a big load and spend the majority of the game time on the field.
Same is true for our RBs. They are not really NFL Grade Starting talent, but rather back up RBs. They could squeak by IF they had ANY blocking, but they dont. Our OL is horrendous and so the RBs have faltered.
The same is true for our QB...it was great that we landed Bradford in an emergent fashion but he is not a mobile QB, he has been rather fragile. He needs a pocket for a few seconds. This Ol cannot provide ANY pocket. It is a miracle that Bradford has had any sucess with our sad OL. By rights, he should already be on the disabled list.
The only part of this team that has no excuse is our kicker....he is just failing due to his own problems.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:56 am
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Post Re: It's panic time
mansquatch wrote:
This year is a very big lesson/reminder to fans about how much of football is mental. A Chicago team that made us look utterly pathetic lost to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers by over 20 points on Sunday. That Bears team and roster is no where near the class of this Vikings roster, yet the Vikings looked like garbage against them and continue to play like it. With exceptions at OL and maybe RB, there isn't a talent issue. It is all mental. The team is totally in the tank and desperately needs to find a way out.


Some of their problems might be mental but I think this season also illustrates that matchups, and the ability to exploit them, are more important in determining outcomes than football than W/L records. The Bears might be bad but they didn't just dominate the Vikes because they had a mental edge. They dominated them because they matched up well against them. Any team with a good running game and a solid defensive front 7 is going to match up pretty well against the Vikes because their OL stinks, their running game stinks and their defense has been vulnerable against the run for years now. Teams that can exploit those weaknesses can beat the Vikes. A team can't hide bad blocking.

Quote:
From a longer term point of view, I wonder what Zimmer will take away from this season. In a lot of ways the complete meltdown is on his shoulders. This team had a ton of swagger going into that bye week and then it just melted down. That is a pure and simple coaching issue. The Eagles loss was tolerable, albeit ugly. But then to not get a win against the Lions and Bear, both of whom are not good football teams, (Yes I know the Lions are tops of the NFC North, they are BAD.) seems to have just devastated the psyche of this team.


Contrary to what some Vikes fans might want to believe, the Vikes have been out-coached too frequently.

I don't think the Vikes primary issue is their state of mind. They have rather clear, exploitable weaknesses. I'm not surprised those weaknesses have caught up with them. Injuries have too and that's a tough thing for any team to deal with but their early success this season was unsustainable without improvement in several key areas and that improvement hasn't occurred.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:18 am
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Post Re: It's panic time
chicagopurple wrote:
This year is NOT a mental issue. It is a lack of talent on the Ol that took a toll on all other aspects of the team over time. With an Offense unable to mount any run game the defense was asked to carry a big load and spend the majority of the game time on the field.
Same is true for our RBs. They are not really NFL Grade Starting talent, but rather back up RBs. They could squeak by IF they had ANY blocking, but they dont. Our OL is horrendous and so the RBs have faltered.
The same is true for our QB...it was great that we landed Bradford in an emergent fashion but he is not a mobile QB, he has been rather fragile. He needs a pocket for a few seconds. This Ol cannot provide ANY pocket. It is a miracle that Bradford has had any sucess with our sad OL. By rights, he should already be on the disabled list.
The only part of this team that has no excuse is our kicker....he is just failing due to his own problems.


The OL / RB woes say nothing about why our Defense, which was playing at a historic level through the first five games, suddenly started surrendering leads like it did against both WSH and DET. There is no talent gap on that sideo of the ball. That is a mental issue pure and simple.

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Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:19 am
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Post Re: It's panic time
Mothman wrote:
Some of their problems might be mental but I think this season also illustrates that matchups, and the ability to exploit them, are more important in determining outcomes than football than W/L records. The Bears might be bad but they didn't just dominate the Vikes because they had a mental edge. They dominated them because they matched up well against them. Any team with a good running game and a solid defensive front 7 is going to match up pretty well against the Vikes because their OL stinks, their running game stinks and their defense has been vulnerable against the run for years now. Teams that can exploit those weaknesses can beat the Vikes. A team can't hide bad blocking.

Contrary to what some Vikes fans might want to believe, the Vikes have been out-coached too frequently.

I don't think the Vikes primary issue is their state of mind. They have rather clear, exploitable weaknesses. I'm not surprised those weaknesses have caught up with them. Injuries have too and that's a tough thing for any team to deal with but their early success this season was unsustainable without improvement in several key areas and that improvement hasn't occurred.


Great post! My thoughts exactly (which is the only reason why it's a great post, Jim :lol: ).

Seriously, just my two cents, but I believe the film shows the mismatches and some of them are big. I'm even seeing things such as bad fundamentals from the Vikings D lately, which might give some credence to the mental problems, as Mansquatch pointed out. As we all know, the offensive line is dreadful.

I fully agree the Vikings D has been vulnerable against the run for quite some time now, plus it's not that out of the ordinary for them to collapse late in a game. That's not to say the Vikings D isn't talented. It most certainly is. But for whatever reason there are weaknesses and the players simply aren't playing up to the level they were at the beginning of the season.

Last but not least, I agree the Vikings have been out-coached too often this season. That includes both the offense and defense, and just maybe the special teams (notice the lack of wall blocking and open lanes for Patterson's kick returns this year). Other NFL teams have caught on to the Vikings "tells" and weaknesses. Unless that changes, the Vikings are going to struggle to win any of their upcoming games.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:05 am
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Post Re: It's panic time
mansquatch wrote:
The OL / RB woes say nothing about why our Defense, which was playing at a historic level through the first five games, suddenly started surrendering leads like it did against both WSH and DET. There is no talent gap on that sideo of the ball. That is a mental issue pure and simple.


It was unlikely the defense was going to sustain the level they were playing at earlier in the season all year. That's incredibly rare and difficult. Fatigue (mental and physical) could be part of the problem. The loss of Sendejo hurt. The injury to Kendricks hurts. The Vikes ran into some teams a little more capable of exploiting vulnerabilities in their defense and those vulnerabilities have probably become more apparent on film as the season has progressed. It's still a good defense and some of their problems might be mental but I don't believe their issues are purely mental, as you're suggesting.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:08 am
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Post Re: It's panic time
losperros wrote:
Great post! My thoughts exactly (which is the only reason why it's a great post, Jim :lol: ).


:lol:

Quote:
Seriously, just my two cents, but I believe the film shows the mismatches and some of them are big. I'm even seeing things such as bad fundamentals from the Vikings D lately, which might give some credence to the mental problems, as Mansquatch pointed out. As we all know, the offensive line is dreadful.

I fully agree the Vikings D has been vulnerable against the run for quite some time now, plus it's not that out of the ordinary for them to collapse late in a game. That's not to say the Vikings D isn't talented. It most certainly is. But for whatever reason there are weaknesses and the players simply aren't playing up to the level they were at the beginning of the season.

Last but not least, I agree the Vikings have been out-coached too often this season. That includes both the offense and defense, and just maybe the special teams (notice the lack of wall blocking and open lanes for Patterson's kick returns this year). Other NFL teams have caught on to the Vikings "tells" and weaknesses. Unless that changes, the Vikings are going to struggle to win any of their upcoming games.


I have a feeling fatigue, both mental and physical, is a big factor.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:16 am
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Post Re: It's panic time
YUP, plus we just dont have the two BIG run stoppers up the middle anymore, not for years.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:29 pm
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Post Re: It's panic time
i don't recall denver's or seattle's defenses being fatigued by week 8 in any of their title runs.


Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:00 pm
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Post Re: It's panic time
Mothman wrote:
mansquatch wrote:
The OL / RB woes say nothing about why our Defense, which was playing at a historic level through the first five games, suddenly started surrendering leads like it did against both WSH and DET. There is no talent gap on that sideo of the ball. That is a mental issue pure and simple.


It was unlikely the defense was going to sustain the level they were playing at earlier in the season all year. That's incredibly rare and difficult. Fatigue (mental and physical) could be part of the problem. The loss of Sendejo hurt. The injury to Kendricks hurts. The Vikes ran into some teams a little more capable of exploiting vulnerabilities in their defense and those vulnerabilities have probably become more apparent on film as the season has progressed. It's still a good defense and some of their problems might be mental but I don't believe their issues are purely mental, as you're suggesting.


If not mental then what? When interviewed these guys all say the defense is all technique. Suddenly guys are out of position and big plays happen. That is not a physical issue.

The squad has suffered a cascade of injuries, most of which are concentrated within the weakest unit on the roster. They also lost their starting QB and starting RB. That is going to build over time. They are totally in the tank right now. The games vs. CHI, DET, and WSH were all games they should have won. They had DET beaten, same with WSH. They faltered on defense at the end. That isn't a roster issue, it isn't bad playcalls, and it isn't some coaching blunder. This is a team that is mentally in the tank and is playing beneath itself. The guys on that defense have the talent and ability to close out and win those games. They just didn't do it.

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Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:17 am
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Post Re: It's panic time
mansquatch wrote:
If not mental then what?


I've already answered that question.

Quote:
When interviewed these guys all say the defense is all technique. Suddenly guys are out of position and big plays happen. That is not a physical issue.


It's not all technique. That might make a good sound bite but it's inaccurate. When players are literally out of position, missing an assignment because they went to the wrong place, that's indicative of a mental error but missed tackles, being blocked out of plays, etc. are often physical issues. To an extent, technique is a physical issue as well and talent and matchups make a difference.

Consider some of Adrian Peterson's runs over the years. How many times have we seen defenders come up to tackle him, in the right position, using proper technique, and fail simply because his size, strength and willpower made him harder than most backs to bring down?

Matchups and talent make a difference. A D-lineman can have great technique but if the guy blocking him has technique and ability equal or superior to the defender's, it can end in a stalemate or that defender can be neutralized for a game. It's not always that he's playing his position wrong or making a mental error. He's just being outplayed.

On a related note, sometimes when a player seems to be out of position, it's because the opposing offense has noticed a tendency on film and they are exploiting it. They see that an LB lines up a little too far inside or outside or that he tends to aggressively overplay the run in a situation and they call something designed to attack and exploit him. There are also times when the defense simply gambles and loses. Zimmer's aggressive, blitzing scheme looks great when it's working but blitz against the wrong play call and the offense can exploit the gap created for a big gain.

Quote:
The squad has suffered a cascade of injuries, most of which are concentrated within the weakest unit on the roster. They also lost their starting QB and starting RB. That is going to build over time. They are totally in the tank right now. The games vs. CHI, DET, and WSH were all games they should have won. They had DET beaten, same with WSH. They faltered on defense at the end. That isn't a roster issue, it isn't bad playcalls, and it isn't some coaching blunder. This is a team that is mentally in the tank and is playing beneath itself. The guys on that defense have the talent and ability to close out and win those games. They just didn't do it.


I guess I'm inclined to give more credit than that to the opposing teams. They won those games as much as the Vikings lost them and there were coaching blunders and physical errors involved, not just mental mistakes.

Why push so hard for a singular explanation? I'm not dismissing the mental aspect of the game. I just think there's more going on than just mental mistakes.


Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:11 pm
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Post Re: It's panic time
LOTS More......


Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:12 pm
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Post Re: It's panic time
the 4rth loss was panic time. Two losses to the Lions is just give up time. Season over


Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:41 pm
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Post Re: It's panic time
lol


Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:04 pm
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