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 Thoughts on the crapfest 
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
I'd be shocked, they are almost at the cap. It would be nice to get one of those guys, but that would mean neutering future drafts which has double costs in that we lose picks as well as cap space. Zimmer said straight up that they will need to get better with who they have.

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:32 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Is anyone really surprised at this point with the O Line?
I could see this game coming from a country mile away. The beds were really comfortable and everybody got some home cooking, got laid, and sat around listening to how great they are/were. Recipe for a letdown game.I'm hoping that they'll respond in a manner which befits a sb caliber team. If not, ho hum same old bs.

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:47 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
I'm wondering where Bradford is in regard to audibles. Not saying that makes better line play, but might be helpful in going to plays that have more of a chance.

Also, Bradford has always looked very good in the past with roll out passing. Hope we see some of that to take off the pressure in the future.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:55 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
The OL played worse in this game than they have in previous efforts. That they are bad was not a surprise, that they were THAT bad was. However, the whole team played flat. ST and O were both really bad and were called out as such. Both phases played beneath themselves. I would argue that the defense played below their abilities, although not nearly to the extent that we saw from the Offense and ST.

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:08 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
mansquatch wrote:
The OL played worse in this game than they have in previous efforts. That they are bad was not a surprise, that they were THAT bad was.


It sure didn't surprise me. I didn't think they were much, if any, worse in this game than they have been in some of the other games this season. One difference was the Eagles were often getting to Bradford before the ball came out rather than arriving and delivering big hits right after the ball was released, as we've seen several of the Vikings previous opponents do this year. However, we saw the same issues we've been seeing all season: rushers coming into the backfield unblocked or simply overpowering linemen at the point of attack. Inconsistent-to-bad run blocking (it was actually better in this game than in some previous efforts), etc. As CbusVikesFan wrote above, see this game coming from a country mile away.

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However, the whole team played flat. ST and O were both really bad and were called out as such. Both phases played beneath themselves. I would argue that the defense played below their abilities, although not nearly to the extent that we saw from the Offense and ST.


I think they were simply outplayed.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:32 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Jim I offer you a different point of view on this: Do you feel that the effort we saw on Sunday was the same level of effort and play we've seen in the previous 5 games this season? I do not feel that it was. In fact I think if we had played at the level we played on Sunday all season we'd easily have at least 2 or 3 more losses than we have now.

If you accept that premise, then how did they win those other games? Did they just get lucky?

I'm not saying the OL played great in the other 5 games, they didn't. But we've seen them play better than we saw on Sunday. We've seen our defense play better and we've seen our ST units play MUCH better than we saw on Sunday. Unfortunately several of the units on the team decided to collectively show us how bad they can play yesterday.

One of the topics we talked about this offseason was the team eliminating flat performances like we just saw. they had three such games in 2015. Unfortunately they now have one in 2016. Let us hope it is the only one.

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:21 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
The Vikings got SMACKED! :lol:

I'm kinda glad now, after the fact. The O-line deserved every bit of the #### chewing they got and have coming. The Eagles put the Vikings in their place and it can be a good thing to get beat down like that when you're flying so high. I think they'll come out fired up and are not going to overlook any team going forward...The only thing is that this O-line can get as fired up as they want to, I just don't know if they have the ability to be good and I have seen no improvement to suggest that the coaches know how to fix it either.

Maybe AP comes back sooner than expected and we can put him at LT...Won't hurt to try at this point. :lol:


Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:24 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Vikings were definitely outplayed. Looking back, they had more than a few legitimate opportunities to put 7 on the board and let the defense play with a decent lead, but they flat out could not get the job done. The Eagles outplayed them.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:26 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
mansquatch wrote:
Jim I offer you a different point of view on this: Do you feel that the effort we saw on Sunday was the same level of effort and play we've seen in the previous 5 games this season? I do not feel that it was. In fact I think if we had played at the level we played on Sunday all season we'd easily have at least 2 or 3 more losses than we have now.


I think the effort was still there but the quality of play was not. I didn't think they looked flat, which I interpret to mean lacking interest and emotion. Maybe you mean something else when you say "flat"?

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If you accept that premise, then how did they win those other games? Did they just get lucky?

I'm not saying the OL played great in the other 5 games, they didn't. But we've seen them play better than we saw on Sunday.


Yes, but overall, the quality of OL play on Sunday has been more the rule than the exception this year. Opposing defenses have been playing in the Vikes backfield all season. The OL has been awful since the season opener but the team has been able to overcome that by avoiding turnovers while forcing them on defense, by playing excellent special teams and by making just enough plays on offense. Nevertheless, as I said a few weeks ago when discussing this, the hits Bradford was taking mattered because they were indicative of how much pressure the line was allowing. When the QB keeps getting hit right after releasing the ball, odds are good that eventually more of those hits are going to arrive earlier and result in sacks, fumbles, disrupted plays, etc. This performance wasn't a fluke. It was inevitable, especially as game film increasingly showed how the Vikes were trying to make up for bad pass blocking with quick release passes. Their run blocking has been sub-par most of the season.

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We've seen our defense play better and we've seen our ST units play MUCH better than we saw on Sunday. Unfortunately several of the units on the team decided to collectively show us how bad they can play yesterday.

One of the topics we talked about this offseason was the team eliminating flat performances like we just saw. they had three such games in 2015. Unfortunately they now have one in 2016. Let us hope it is the only one.


I hope so but I doubt it will be. As I posted yesterday, that was the eighth game of the Zimmer era in which the Vikes have scored 10 or fewer points. Considering the state of their line, it seems likely we'll see another one this year. Maybe the ST and defense will be able to help them overcome it again.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:14 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
On the subject of trying to make up for bad pass blocking with quick release passes...

Vikings got exposed, and now the clock is ticking

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There's a clock in Sam Bradford's head, and it's ticking fast. The alarm goes off at 2.3 seconds, which is the average length of time it's taking the Minnesota Vikings quarterback to throw the ball this season. That was the fourth-fastest time in the entire NFL entering Sunday's game, and Sunday's game showed the reason for that.


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The 5-0 record the Vikings carried into Lincoln Financial Field on Sunday wasn't a mirage, but it wasn't bulletproof, either. The pressure with which the Eagles' defensive front whipped Minnesota's overmatched tackles was the attack for which Zimmer has clearly been bracing. Philadelphia sacked Bradford six times, and the Eagles also hit him 19 times and knocked him down 14 times. A tackle rotation that included T.J. Clemmings, Jeremiah Sirles and recently signed veteran Jake Long didn't have any answers for the Eagles' edge rushers, who were appropriately unimpressed.


... and the conclusion:

Quote:
That clock that's in Bradford's head every time he takes a snap is just like the one that needs to be in the Vikings' heads as they swallow their first loss and take this turn into the middle part of the season. They're 5-1 and have looked as good as any team in the league this year. But because they can't afford for Bradford to get hurt and because their biggest current problem puts his health at direct risk, they don't have a lot of time to get this figured out.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:32 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Zimmer cracks me up:

Brian Murphy: Eagles expose Vikings’ offensive line holes

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“We’re not going to go down the street and pick up a bunch of guys,” he said. “We need to get these guys better and we need to do it quickly. I’m disappointed we allowed that to happen. You know going into the game they’re going to go after Bradford. I didn’t go to Harvard but I figured that out.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:50 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
The new offensive line theme song with the guys Zimmer picked up by home depot...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJHQJhx1A_c

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:01 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
See if the Browns would take a 2nd and maybe a 6th from 2018


Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:02 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
I guess my question is, if the vikings know the offensive line is such a problem, why are they continuously allowing them to be exposed? Why are they not doing more max protect or putting tight ends on both tackles and allow them to chip before they go in to their routes. It's not just the offensive line either, from the little I saw Sunday, the backs aren't doing a good job at picking up the blitz either. The offensive line will continue to be bad, but making a bad o line win one on one battles is bad coaching.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Jim,
you and I have seen a ton of Vikings football. We have seen many lineups trotted out there for us to behold. Some have been really good and some really bad.I am not sure how it has gotten to be this putrid, but one thing is for sure. The eagles have a pretty good defense in their own right. And they game planned accordingly. Knowing that, I am not sure how the Vikings came up with any counter punches. The whole team should take the blame, they were outcoached and outplayed.
If the team was built from the inside out, there wouldn't be so much conversation about the offensive line.

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Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:35 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Vikings can better scheme pass protection, Mike Zimmer said. "I'd wish we'd done some things differently."

:tongue: Zimmer: BRob & Hunter you Boyz's are going to play Offensive Tackle this week.
Griffen & Johnson your the following week. :lol: :lol:


Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:50 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Based on what I saw I don't think there is any reason to be more concerned coming out of this last game than I was going into it to be honest.

Everyone knows the Vikings offensive line is struggling with injuries and consistency, and everyone has known that since the preseason. They largely did the same thing last year as well. So it isn't news.

What killed the Vikings yesterday more than anything were the *mistakes* they made. These mistakes seemed to plague them in all phases of the game to be honest:

- Sendejo makes a nice INT near the goal line, but instead of taking the ball to the outside and giving himself a chance to score, he inexplicably punches straight ahead and into the only Philly players with a chance to tackle him. He not only doesn't score, he gets injured to boot.
- The Vikings have 2 chances on offense to pick up a yard for a first down deep in Philly territory. Both attempts are identical with identical results - stuffed. Ball turns over on downs and the Vikes get no points.
- Zimmer tries to get a timeout called between said 2 plays so he can get a measurement. Officials don't see him/ignore him, so no timeout, no measurement, no first down, no points.
- Vikes get a great downed punt by Patterson on the Philly 2. Wentz is backed up and needs to worry about a safety, much less picking up a first down. He does what anyone with a brain in that situation would do and goes to a hard count hoping to get the defense to jump. Vikings oblige. Philly gets 5 free yards, breathing room, and goes on to pick up the first down and move the ball out of danger.
- Marcus Sherels just has to field a punt near the Vikings 40. He doesn't have to return it as the field position there is solid regardless. Ball bounces. He fields it and attempts to start running with it. Fumble. Arg...
- Philly has the ball in Minnesota territory. It's 4th and short. Does the Viking defense step up and slam the gate? Nope. Philly gets the 1st they need and goes on to score their only TD of the game IIRC.

There are many more examples of a team that had played largely mistake-free football up to yesterday that seemingly became intent on making up for that lost time. They did, they lost, it sucks, and they'll move on.

This is still the same team it was coming into the Philly game. It has the same glaring flaws and core strengths. Nothing really has changed except perhaps the offensive linemen and the coaches are going to go back to the drawing board to see if they can do anything different to compensate for the most obvious of the weaknesses on display. But I still expect this team to go on to win the next two games and finish with 11-12 wins and then get whacked in the playoffs because they'll either run into a team that is just too strong up front for them to compensate for on offense or simply because they're the Vikings and that's what they do, whichever comes first.

I'm still very optimistic about the team's long-term chances. Spielman will have his work cut out for him on the offensive line for sure, but the team should remain on an upward trajectory overall and if by some miracle they can solidify the offensive line either this season or next, it is a team that is worthy of being in the Superbowl conversation.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:42 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
halfgiz wrote:
Vikings can better scheme pass protection, Mike Zimmer said. "I'd wish we'd done some things differently."

:tongue: Zimmer: BRob & Hunter you Boyz's are going to play Offensive Tackle this week.
Griffen & Johnson your the following week. :lol: :lol:


Joking aside, has there ever been a time where a lineman's played both ways? Surely learning how to beat the other side, means you are somewhat learned to ply their trade?

Yep it's got that bad.


Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:23 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Jim Vikinglord's post sums up my view on the matter. They made many uncharacteristic mistakes in the game on Sunday. Philly didn't expose anything that wasn't already known. The OL played worse than they have played in recent weeks and low and behold we got stomped.

As I said before, this game reminds me of the debacle in SF in 2015.

The bottom line is can the coaches get it fixed. I think ST and DEF will get back to form. The OL is the question mark which it has been all season.

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Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:39 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
We all knew they would lose a game. In this one they made so many mistakes it was hard to watch. Thing is, this is a team that won't make those mistakes in the future. I hope.

Some days chicken salad, some days chicken crap. Sunday was a chicken crap day for the Vikings.

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Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:40 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
mansquatch wrote:
Jim Vikinglord's post sums up my view on the matter. They made many uncharacteristic mistakes in the game on Sunday. Philly didn't expose anything that wasn't already known. The OL played worse than they have played in recent weeks and low and behold we got stomped.


I don't think anybody is suggesting a new, previously unseen weakness on the team was exposed, are they? Quite the opposite: an obvious weakness some of us felt could start to cost the team games was exploited and they were soundly defeated. The uncharacteristic mistakes were a contributing factor but as some writers and fans have been saying for weeks, the way the Vikes were winning was probably unsustainable. The law of averages suggested those mistakes were going to show up at some point. Now, how often will they show up the rest of the way? How many more teams will successfully exploit the Vikes glaring weakness?

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As I said before, this game reminds me of the debacle in SF in 2015.


Unfortunately, it reminds me of several games from 2015. :(

Quote:
The bottom line is can the coaches get it fixed. I think ST and DEF will get back to form. The OL is the question mark which it has been all season.


I think it's unlikely they'll get it fixed this season but maybe they can successfully work around it more often than not, as they did in the first 5 games.


Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:43 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Ironically this mess underscores why the team needs Kalil. Talk about being lucky. He is an average at best Tackle but is surrounded by low ceiling talent and thus constantly gets paid.

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Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:51 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
bottom line.....this team cannot compete with any team that has a good pass rush. We will beat the weak sisters but we have NO offense when facing a real pass rush and in that situation, we don't have a high output Offense to get into a high scoring game.....this game was a reality check for those uninformed fans who have been drinking purple Kool-Aid for 5 weeks. The OL MUST be addressed. Till then we are just spinning our wheels.


Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:15 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
This AP article had a few items of interest:

http://www.foxsports.com/north/story/bo ... ngs-102416

Quote:
Bradford took six sacks and was hit 12 times by his former team that used insider knowledge toward a crafty strategy by defensive coordinator Jim Schwartz that called for a well-disguised series of blitzes out of zone coverages.

"Now Sam is throwing into a defense where people are looking at him and have people have eyes on the football," Eagles safety Malcolm Jenkins said. "It's a little tougher to see where those are coming from."

Jenkins cited experience facing Bradford in practice last year and training camp this summer in concluding he prefers to throw to the outside of the field when the rush comes. Taking advantage of injury replacements for the Vikings at both tackle spots, the Eagles applied plenty of pressure off the ends of the formation. Schwartz drew raves from his players afterward about the game plan.


Quote:
The book on beating the Vikings this year was always going to be building a healthy lead in the first half, minimizing turnovers against their dominant defense and overwhelming the offensive line with a pass rush that knocks Bradford out of rhythm. Thanks to the Eagles, that book became a best-seller on Sunday.

The defense forced four turnovers and allowed only 239 yards, and the Vikings still lost by 11 points.

"We're trying to figure out everything right now," Zimmer said, promising changes this week without specifying whether he meant the lineup, the game plan, the practice routine or all of the above. "This is a gut-check day."


Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:08 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
I finally got around to watching the game because I was on a plane so in couldn't see any of this mess. Didn't realize how windy it was on Sunday! The team played like they used to play on the road outside when we lost like 19 in a row over 3-4 seasons.

The OLine was horrendous but Bradford missed a few passes in the first half which could have really changed the game. Maybe it was the wind? Also nice to see CP84 get some touches at the end - maybe that last little burst with him and Bradford can get some chemistry going forward.

I wonder if Teddy would have played better than Sam. Although a few of those negative plays weren't Sam's fault, I think Teddy would have made something positive out of them like we saw a decent amount the past couple years. Sam has definitely won us a few games this year that Teddy most likely wouldn't have won (with his 2015 production) but I think this was a game where Teddy might have won it over Sam with his escaping and running ability.


Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:21 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
chicagopurple wrote:
bottom line.....this team cannot compete with any team that has a good pass rush. We will beat the weak sisters but we have NO offense when facing a real pass rush and in that situation, we don't have a high output Offense to get into a high scoring game.....this game was a reality check for those uninformed fans who have been drinking purple Kool-Aid for 5 weeks. The OL MUST be addressed. Till then we are just spinning our wheels.


The Eagles blitzed as much against the Vikings as they have all season against any other team, so while they have a decent pass rush, they succeeded more due to the relentless pressure and confusion that caused more than by necessarily manhandling the Vikings offense line per se. Plus, I don't think the Vikings did a whole heck of a lot to adjust to that, probably believing that Philly would either relent with the pressure at some point and/or get burned bring it, neither of which happened.

That action of Philly showing so many blitzes will produce an equal and opposite reaction of the Vikings adjusting to any team that tries the same, so while others may try it I suspect they'll find a lot less success with it and, if Norv knows what he's doing, he'll design in some nice surprises to pop out that will increase the chances of the Vikings burning teams that bring so much heat.

While I agree with you that a team with a very good pass rush is likely to cause problems, that would be true for any team in the league and not just the Vikings. I disagree with you that a fan has to be on the Purple Kool-Aid and be uninformed to have believed in this team prior to, or post, the game against the Eagles, however. The offensive line isn't as bad as they looked against the Eagles, nor are the Eagles going to get away with bringing that kind of blitz pressure so regularly should they try it against other teams. It was one game where the Eagles looked better than they are, the Vikings looked worse than they are, and neither team is likely to repeat a performance like that again this season.

The offensive line has to be addressed of course, but I am of the opinion this group can and will get better yet this season. Let's see how they're playing come December and decide then if the season should be written off.


Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:34 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Interesting article.

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Despite the fact that the Vikings lost and the overall ugliness of their offense, I believe that this season has a lot of promise for them, even more than the victorious Eagles.


http://theundefeated.com/features/minne ... it-looked/

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Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:17 pm
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
we are just 1-6 in the last 7 years in games after the bye week :?

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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
Raptorman wrote:
Interesting article.

Quote:
Despite the fact that the Vikings lost and the overall ugliness of their offense, I believe that this season has a lot of promise for them, even more than the victorious Eagles.


http://theundefeated.com/features/minne ... it-looked/


Thanks so much for the share! I'm going to keep on looking for Dominic Foxworth's articles...he really brings a detailed analysis. I was especially encouraged by his analysis of Bradford's choices during the game.


Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:00 am
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Post Re: Thoughts on the crapfest
coaching adjustments cannot create speed, strength and body mass in an offensive lineman. The building blocks just aren't there. Its pretty sad when your greatest chance for improvement would be the return of Kalil....


Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:23 am
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