This could be an issue later

[Mothman]

OK who then is drafting these WRs? Why is that after we get them into the team that we find out he's slow, can't run routes, catches the ball with his body and not hands, Has attitude problems, ect ect ect. Who is not doing their homework before we draft these guys

Spielman and the scouting department would be making that determination, along with input from the coaching staff.

I don't have the faintest idea what sort of criteria this staff uses to determine WR playing time. We see unproductive WRs put on the field for extended periods of time, a relatively productive WR like Wright benched after getting a contract extension, Patterson languishing on the bench for reasons A-Z (pick your favorite), Treadwell drafted in the first round and deactivated, even though he wasn't a raw WR coming out of college...

It's a complete mystery to me. I imagine some of it has to do with experience. Some of it is a "numbers game" but some of it it is truly odd.

[J. Kapp 11]

I don't find it confusing at all.

It's not that Zimmer won't play rookies. He played Barr. He played Kendricks. He played Bridgewater. He played McKinnon. He DID play Diggs, even if it wasn't when some of you thought he should be playing (and doesn't hindsight provide a clear picture). He played Clemmings.

Zimmer plays guys when he thinks they're ready. It's his call, not ours. Given the fact that he's won 15 of his last 20 regular season games, I'll trust the coach.

[Boon]

So you know for a fact Treadwell has been out-performing CJ in practice. You also know/believe, through concrete speculation and insinuation that Treadwell has an attitude problem. Some of that evidence is a hat.

Ok dude.

Yeah, it's speculation on my part. That's obvious. At least I thought it was.

[Boon]

The only issue I have with trusting Turner about who is or isn't ready is that Diggs only got his opportunity once CJ broke his ribs in week 3-4. Afterword Diggs took the field and was immediately better than anyone else at WR and still is.
I have a hard time believing that he couldn't have played sooner or that his performance was the result of sitting for 3 weeks or so.

Exactly, but be careful because speculation.....this is all about facts and evidence!

[Boon]

These seems like the same kind of thing we heard about Waynes. He must not be good or must be having problems with the coaching staff because he's not starting as a rookie. That's just not how this team approaches year 1 players.

Yeah But in the waynes scenario he had Rhodes, Newman and Munnerlyn in front of him, none of which were particularly bad last year. There is a big difference between a wide receiver who is sitting inactive while one of his counterparts is chewing up snaps and not doing anything, vs a corner sitting because the people higher than him on the depth chart are solid.

[Nunin]

Diggs, McKinnon, Clemmings and Bridgewater all started because of injuries or a suspension. Waynes maybe is included in that group. Those are facts.

[losperros]

Hate on Charles Johnson all you guys want, but Treadwell and Wright have done even less. And I know Wright isn't garbage. Treadwell ... ? I have no idea. It's funny about all the Patterson hate, too. Yet he's contributing more than Johnson, Wright, and Treadwell. Maybe fans don't always know what they think they know. Let's wait and see.

I like Charles Johnson a lot but I sure don't think he's playing well this season. He's not getting open and dropping passes.

OTOH, I think Thielen has looked terrific so far this year. His one-handed grab against the Panthers in the second half was awe-inspiring.

Patterson may not get many chances but he makes the most of it when he catches the ball. I loved the way he fought for 8 yards on a screen that looked doomed from the start.

Both Thielen and Patterson should be starting ahead of Johnson for now, in my view. I think they've earned it during these first three games.

[Boon]

There has been a lot of speculation about 'stubborness', I really can't tell, but I do believe they are truly cautious. I characterized Turner as a counter puncher, meaning he isn't afraid of taking shots, he is just very measured about doing so. It's not exactly a conservative approach as it is a cautious one.

With turner it's not speculation, I live in charger/cardinal country being so close to cali but living in az, I lived here during his tenure as chargers HC. Tomlinson and Gates on many occasions took jabs at him for being an idiot. A stubborn idiot, and what bothers me the most is I believe the reason he has such autonomy over the offense is because of his ghost resume, one that isn't nearly as spectacular as the facts in his track record. I liken this to the Yankees. Torre/Girardi. Torre was the former coach, Girardi was a player for Torre who ended up being the coach, and had a well known love/hate affair with a soon to be "hall of famer" Jorge Posada. Everyone loved posada, girardi was obviously mad cause he took his spot. But that DOES NOT detract from the fact that posada, while having good stats for a catcher, was inherently bad, like really bad. And kept his job based on some ghost reasoning that he was good. He couldnt throw out base runners if his life depended on it. His strikeout numbers were pretty bad, and his clutch gene was non existent. RISP batting was atrocious when they needed it. But he managed to con his way into all sorts of perks. Doesn't make sense to me. Girardi was a better all around catcher but torre didn't like him and IMO cost him a hall of fame bust.

Turner is identical. This is all dejavu to me.

[S197]

So I guess there's really 2 questions from the OP. 1) Does Treadwell want to be here and 2) Is it Norv or one of the coaches fault he isn't seeing the field.

To respond to the first, I think at the draft he probably was a little upset that he was the 3rd receiver off the board. He was at one point in time, the consensus top pick. So to me that's understandable as is maybe the Vikings weren't his favorite team growing up. It's rare that you get to play for the team you love (except Bohringer) but that's the NFL. What I do see is him putting in a lot of time after practice and keeping his mouth shut about play time. Both huge positives in my view. Basically, I think he has the right attitude.

Regarding the second question, I think it goes both ways. Diggs was passed up 145 times before the Vikings picked him. Surely Norv/Spielman deserves some credit there? Same with Thielen, I recall many pondering why he was still on the team prior to this year. He of course was an UDFA. He's more or less the Marcus Sherels of the offense.

I think what they should do (and did do against GB) is work Treadwell in when the offense gets in the redzone. 1) he's a great blocker and 2) he has the size and ability to win contested grabs. This is how I'd personally like to see him start getting involved.

Norv does seem stubborn and rather unimaginative at times. If Treadwell can be a solid contributor, that means we'd have 3 good wideouts and hopefully that leads to more options in terms of spreading things out. Especially w/ Kyle looking good this year.

[Nunin]

With turner it's not speculation, I live in charger/cardinal country being so close to cali but living in az, I lived here during his tenure as chargers HC. Tomlinson and Gates on many occasions took jabs at him for being an idiot. A stubborn idiot, and what bothers me the most is I believe the reason he has such autonomy over the offense is because of his ghost resume, one that isn't nearly as spectacular as the facts in his track record. I liken this to the Yankees. Torre/Girardi. Torre was the former coach, Girardi was a player for Torre who ended up being the coach, and had a well known love/hate affair with a soon to be "hall of famer" Jorge Posada. Everyone loved posada, girardi was obviously mad cause he took his spot. But that DOES NOT detract from the fact that posada, while having good stats for a catcher, was inherently bad, like really bad. And kept his job based on some ghost reasoning that he was good. He couldnt throw out base runners if his life depended on it. His strikeout numbers were pretty bad, and his clutch gene was non existent. RISP batting was atrocious when they needed it. But he managed to con his way into all sorts of perks. Doesn't make sense to me. Girardi was a better all around catcher but torre didn't like him and IMO cost him a hall of fame bust.

Turner is identical. This is all dejavu to me.

I've grown rather quickly to not be a fan of Turner and his style. I think they can win with the right pieces, and maybe Bradford is a big piece. I think the only two players to b benched on this anemic offense are CP and Jarius Wright (who may or may not be injured, I don't know).
The crap o-line and a young developing QB, who isn't a natural fit for what Turner does, really mucks up the picture. Last year I was incredulous that Mike Wallace played every game, it seemed to be a common chord at every board I read. Why wasn't he benched? Now he's tearing it up for 3-0 BAL.
So, I'm not a fan of Norv's but I don't think he's incapable, especially with the way this defense is rolling. I would absolutely take Bevell and possibly Musgrave over him though. Musgrave had far less to work with IMO and the same sub-standard O-line.

[J. Kapp 11]

Diggs, McKinnon, Clemmings and Bridgewater all started because of injuries or a suspension. Waynes maybe is included in that group. Those are facts.

But Zimmer didn't have to start rookies in their place. That is also a fact.

[Nunin]

But Zimmer didn't have to start rookies in their place. That is also a fact.

That's true. But out of all of those examples, all of which are on offense, I would argue that only Diggs was actually ready (more than ready) and the reasons the others started was due to the poor depth at their positions vs how truly game ready they were. Not the preparation genius of Norv Turner.
It's been a totally different story on defense from what I have seen.

[J. Kapp 11]

That's true. But out of all of those examples, all of which are on offense, I would argue that only Diggs was actually ready (more than ready) and the reasons the others started was due to the poor depth at their positions vs how truly game ready they were. Not the preparation genius of Norv Turner.
It's been a totally different story on defense from what I have seen.

I'm just saying ... the Vikings are 15-5 in their last 20 regular season games. I think Zimmer has a good idea of what he's doing when it comes to personnel.

[Nunin]

I'm just saying ... the Vikings are 15-5 in their last 20 regular season games. I think Zimmer has a good idea of what he's doing when it comes to personnel.[/quot]
Not on offense IMO.
I don't even believe he's consistently making those calls to be honest.

-
But what I'm saying is those guys listed who played as rookies on offense do not really support the case for Norv plugging guys in when they are ready. The real contradiction is Diggs who did more in his first 4-5 games than the guy he replaced has done in his whole career.

[Mothman]

I'm just saying ... the Vikings are 15-5 in their last 20 regular season games. I think Zimmer has a good idea of what he's doing when it comes to personnel.

When it comes to defensive personnel, there's no doubt. However...

A 15-5 record over the last 20 regular season games is admirable but it doesn't make Zimmer a flawless decision maker. For all we know, if they'd handled the offensive personnel differently they might be 19-1 in those games. Then again, maybe not. The point is winning coaches are still human and still capable of errors in judgment. A good record doesn't mean there's no room for change or improvement. This isn't exactly a highly effective, powerhouse of an offense Zimmer's been putting on the field for the past 2+ seasons. Maybe he has a little room for improvement in that area?