What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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Mothman
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

Post by Mothman »

J. Kapp 11 wrote:The fact that Denver won the game easily while doing nothing on offense highlights the fact that big plays can be made on defense as well as offense. This game, as any Vikings fan should know by now, is not about yards. It's about points. Denver's defense, for all practical purposes, outscored Carolina's offense. Who cares if Carolina had more yards? Denver's defense made big plays when it needed to.

If defense doesn't win championships, Denver's defense certainly broke that mold.
It seems you misunderstood my point, which wasn't about Carolina's offense out-gaining Denver's offense.

I realize the game is about scoring, not yards, but look at how the points were scored. There are two sides to every coin. Denver's defense made big plays when it needed to but the flip side to that coin is Carolina's offense had breakdowns when they could least afford them. Yes, a simple way to look at the game is "defense wins championships" but both defenses played a terrific game. Both made big plays but the adage could still only hold true for one of them. Defense didn't win a championship for Carolina yesterday, even though they played championship-caliber defense.

My point was that even with a great defense, the other aspects of the team have to be good enough to get the win. If the Vikes want to get to the Super Bowl and win it all, they have to get there with a team that can counterpunch an opponent like the Broncos effectively enough to beat them or with a team that won't have the kind of breakdowns on offense and special teams that set up most of Denver's points yesterday.

In simplest terms, I'm saying what I've always believed to be true in this team sport: defenses don't win championships, teams win championships.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

Post by The Breeze »

I just can't buy into the notions that Newton completely crumbled under pressure nor the Broncos won the game easily.
Sounds a little like confirmation bias to me. Newton is easy to dislike.
Newton was the lone bright spot on the enitre Panther offense. It wasn't an MVP type performance and he did get rattled...but not nearly to level of his o-line and whoever continued calling Norv type plays requiring Newton to hold on to the ball so long. It's like they had absolutely no plan, on the off chance that Denver's pass rush got through, to do something different like get the ball out quicker. It seemed that ran a few quick hitters/slants in the 3rd qtr...but the breakdowns on the line and TOs killed them. In spite of that....they were in the game till that late fumble. Hardly an easy victory IMO.
But in reference to the Vikings and what they can learn? Don't be one dimentional on offense....don't turn the ball over.
The Panthers held the Broncos to 17pts including the 5yd drive at the end....their offense flubbed it as much as the Denver D won it.
One game in a vaccum....the nature of the superbowl. Either team could have one given a different outcome of a coupla plays...jus like last year. And just like last year, there's no guarantee either of these teams will e back in it next year. Teamwise, you have to make the most of every opportunity, giving yourself the best chance by being fundamentally sound and taking your shot when it's there, rather than playing not to lose.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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The Breeze wrote:I just can't buy into the notions that Newton completely crumbled under pressure nor the Broncos won the game easily.
Sounds a little like confirmation bias to me. Newton is easy to dislike.
Newton was the lone bright spot on the enitre Panther offense. It wasn't an MVP type performance and he did get rattled...but not nearly to level of his o-line and whoever continued calling Norv type plays requiring Newton to hold on to the ball so long. It's like they had absolutely no plan, on the off chance that Denver's pass rush got through, to do something different like get the ball out quicker. It seemed that ran a few quick hitters/slants in the 3rd qtr...but the breakdowns on the line and TOs killed them. In spite of that....they were in the game till that late fumble. Hardly an easy victory IMO.
But in reference to the Vikings and what they can learn? Don't be one dimentional on offense....don't turn the ball over
The Panthers held the Broncos to 17pts including the 5yd drive at the end....their offense flubbed it as much as the Denver D won it.
Exactly!

At the highest level of the game, there's a good chance you'll run into a team with a very formidable defense so you'd better have an effective way to deal with that defense, a second dimension to turn to if the defense takes away your first.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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@Jim
The point you and Kapp made about Cam and AD being over burdened by their teams is significant.
TB got called out after the first Seattle tilt for being scared. After that game his whole demeanor changed for the rest of the year....it didn't change what he needs to work on fundamentally but it was obvious he stepped up after that. Newton never faced that kinda defensive pressure til last night. The Vikes have faced it, more often than not, for a few seasons.
The Vikings offense put 20 on that Denver D in Denver. Are they a better offense? I don't think so...but they are far more experienced at dealing with what to do when your best option isn't working.
That is someting you can't really quantify that bodes well going forward. The trials and adversity the offense has faced due to just the line play has hopefully made them a more adaptable group as a whole in the future.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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The Breeze wrote:I just can't buy into the notions that Newton completely crumbled under pressure nor the Broncos won the game easily.
Sounds a little like confirmation bias to me. Newton is easy to dislike.
That's not fair. I watched the game and commented to people in the room many times that Cam looked rattled. He played horribly. It was obvious not only after the game, but while it was happening. And honestly, it surprised me quite a bit. The way he's been playing, especially in the playoffs, I didn't expect the league MVP to go 18-of-41 with three turnovers. If Teddy went 18-of-41 and got rattled the way Cam did, everybody on this board would be calling for his head.

For the record, I have no bias either way with Cam Newton. I really don't care what he does. But if he's easy to dislike, it's only because he brings it on himself. And it's not just fans who don't care for him. The Broncos couldn't stand him or his teammates. Here's what Broncos corner T.J. Ward had to say about it:
“We don’t have to say nothing," Ward said. "We let them do all the talking. We let our pads talk. We talk with our helmets and our shoulder pads. They could do all the media talking, you know what I’m talking about? We’re not about that flashy stuff. We’re about that grind, putting in that work. Grind it. Work. That’s how you get the ‘ship."
"They want to be famous. We want to be champions," Ward said. "They want to be rappers and backup dancers. We want to play football.”
There are a LOT more comments besides Ward's -- from other Broncos players, even from Wade Phillips. The Broncos were pissed at all the Cam and Carolina love, and they weren't thrilled at how Cam and his teammates were unabashedly basking in the limelight during the buildup to the game. That kind of stuff just never sits well, either with fans or opponents. Cam is a great player, and he does a lot of nice things for kids and all. But if you're going to preen for the media, you'd better back it up.

So yeah, let's talk confirmation bias ... it's always smarter to do your talking after the game than before it. Maybe Carolina will learn that lesson.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Mothman wrote:In simplest terms, I'm saying what I've always believed to be true in this team sport: defenses don't win championships, teams win championships.
And yet ... Denver won with one of the worst offensive performances in Super Bowl history. How again did Denver's offense contribute to this team win? Was it the less than 200 yards, the 1-of-14 performance on third down, or the 11 total first downs?

Look, I'm really only kidding. In fact, I totally agree with you. Great TEAMS are great in the trenches. The Vikings need to improve the offense, specifically the line, if they want to take the big step to the Big Game. Minnesota is in good shape on the defensive line. I think we can all agree to that, especially when they're healthy (although they proved this year that they have quality depth at each D-line position). But with our O-line, we're eventually going to get stopped.

To be honest, Denver got more than a little lucky yesterday. Carolina's offense was only marginally better than Denver's, and with all the Panthers dropped passes, turnovers, sacks allowed, and errant throws, it's a wonder they scored at all. If Denver's defense hadn't forced two miscues that led directly to 14 points, the Panthers might have won 10-9.

My main point is that by building defense first, I believe we're on the right track. Now it's time to fix that O-line and make a serious run.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: And yet ... Denver won with one of the worst offensive performances in Super Bowl history. How again did Denver's offense contribute to this team win? Was it the less than 200 yards, the 1-of-14 performance on third down, or the 11 total first downs?

Look, I'm really only kidding. In fact, I totally agree with you. Great TEAMS are great in the trenches. The Vikings need to improve the offense, specifically the line, if they want to take the big step to the Big Game. Minnesota is in good shape on the defensive line. I think we can all agree to that, especially when they're healthy (although they proved this year that they have quality depth at each D-line position). But with our O-line, we're eventually going to get stopped.

To be honest, Denver got more than a little lucky yesterday. Carolina's offense was only marginally better than Denver's, and with all the Panthers dropped passes, turnovers, sacks allowed, and errant throws, it's a wonder they scored at all. If Denver's defense hadn't forced two miscues that led directly to 14 points, the Panthers might have won 10-9.

My main point is that by building defense first, I believe we're on the right track. Now it's time to fix that O-line and make a serious run.
lol, you should know better by now Kapp, if you say something like "defense wins championships" you know Jim isn't going to stop until he gets you to agree that it's a team effort. :P
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

Post by Demi »

Newton was the lone bright spot on the enitre Panther offense.
Bright spot? He was missing open receivers, throughout the entire game. Even when his line, and receivers, did their job....he failed to.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: And yet ... Denver won with one of the worst offensive performances in Super Bowl history. How again did Denver's offense contribute to this team win? Was it the less than 200 yards, the 1-of-14 performance on third down, or the 11 total first downs?

Look, I'm really only kidding. In fact, I totally agree with you. Great TEAMS are great in the trenches. The Vikings need to improve the offense, specifically the line, if they want to take the big step to the Big Game. Minnesota is in good shape on the defensive line. I think we can all agree to that, especially when they're healthy (although they proved this year that they have quality depth at each D-line position). But with our O-line, we're eventually going to get stopped.

To be honest, Denver got more than a little lucky yesterday. Carolina's offense was only marginally better than Denver's, and with all the Panthers dropped passes, turnovers, sacks allowed, and errant throws, it's a wonder they scored at all. If Denver's defense hadn't forced two miscues that led directly to 14 points, the Panthers might have won 10-9.

My main point is that by building defense first, I believe we're on the right track. Now it's time to fix that O-line and make a serious run.
Exactly! :)
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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mondry wrote:lol, you should know better by now Kapp, if you say something like "defense wins championships" you know Jim isn't going to stop until he gets you to agree that it's a team effort. :P
I just expressed my takeaway from the game. Nobody has to agree with it.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

Post by 808vikingsfan »

Unsung hero of SB50, Britton Colquitt. Don't have any stats to back this up but that kid has it all. Accuracy, hang time, and distance. Really impressed with the way he used the sidelines.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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whoever continued calling Norv type plays requiring Newton to hold on to the ball so long. It's like they had absolutely no plan, on the off chance that Denver's pass rush got through, to do something different like get the ball out quicker.
I was just talking about this the other day. I think it's that Carolina got forced into playing the long game rather than they planned to hold the ball that long from the beginning. Denver took away the mid-range shots, depended on their defensive to get to the QB before the long stuff developed, and be smart enough to spot the run.

It's a strategy that the teams that beat the Vikings employed too. Counting on the defense to get to the QB before anything long could develop against the Vikings offensive line is smart. For the Broncos, betting that your defense can get past pretty much any offensive line to at least hurry the QB before longer plays can develop is a good bet.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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Demi wrote: Bright spot? He was missing open receivers, throughout the entire game. Even when his line, and receivers, did their job....he failed to.
I'll amend my take and include Olsen as another bright spot. I'm not saying Newton played lights out....I'm saying pretty much the entire Panther offense didn't show up. He was pretty erratic in the 1st half...but he played much better in the second half. Also the actual context of my comment was in response to the notion that Newton 'completely crumbled under the pressure'....I disagree, YMMV
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Hard to argue this. We've GOT to get better up front on offense. But if we do, I like our chances.
If the Vikings don't improve their offensive line, then I don't see them going to the Super Bowl. Defense can greatly help win championships only when it dominates the opposition's offensive line. I know that sounds simplistic but in my view, that's what happen with the Broncos beating the Panthers.

Anyway, a porous offensive line is one of the main reasons why the Vikings passing game suffered last year. It has to be fixed.
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Re: What the Vikings (and fans) can learn from SB 50

Post by The Breeze »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: That's not fair. I watched the game and commented to people in the room many times that Cam looked rattled. He played horribly. It was obvious not only after the game, but while it was happening. And honestly, it surprised me quite a bit. The way he's been playing, especially in the playoffs, I didn't expect the league MVP to go 18-of-41 with three turnovers. If Teddy went 18-of-41 and got rattled the way Cam did, everybody on this board would be calling for his head.

For the record, I have no bias either way with Cam Newton. I really don't care what he does. But if he's easy to dislike, it's only because he brings it on himself. And it's not just fans who don't care for him. The Broncos couldn't stand him or his teammates. Here's what Broncos corner T.J. Ward had to say about it:

“We don’t have to say nothing," Ward said. "We let them do all the talking. We let our pads talk. We talk with our helmets and our shoulder pads. They could do all the media talking, you know what I’m talking about? We’re not about that flashy stuff. We’re about that grind, putting in that work. Grind it. Work. That’s how you get the ‘ship."

"They want to be famous. We want to be champions," Ward said. "They want to be rappers and backup dancers. We want to play football.”
There are a LOT more comments besides Ward's -- from other Broncos players, even from Wade Phillips. The Broncos were pissed at all the Cam and Carolina love, and they weren't thrilled at how Cam and his teammates were unabashedly basking in the limelight during the buildup to the game. That kind of stuff just never sits well, either with fans or opponents. Cam is a great player, and he does a lot of nice things for kids and all. But if you're going to preen for the media, you'd better back it up.

So yeah, let's talk confirmation bias ... it's always smarter to do your talking after the game than before it. Maybe Carolina will learn that lesson.
I don't like Newton really, and yeah he brings it on himself. I've just seen lots of sentiment on the board and in other places long before this game of expressed dislike for him in spite of his onfield results (TDs). Contrasted with adoration for TB because he is so likeable regardless of results. So, my remark of confirmation bias is rooted in that and wasn't directed to a comment of yours specifically....I think it was Mondry's maybe....
Anyway, 18/41 is crap....I didn't realize it was that bad. I was more focused on how the potection was lacking and what little alternatives they had. It all seemed famliar. I think their whole offense crumbled....much the way the Vikings did at home against Seattle in the regular season. I took some humbrage at what I saw as Newton being made scapegoat. Or that his lack of perceived poise in one game makes TB a better option, when there is that regular season Seattle game to look at.
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Just to get my take on the topic back on track and out of the realm defending Newton in what I think was a team failure. I think they'll all learn from this loss and be back much like Denver after getting blown out of th SB 2 seasons ago:
I think TB has tons of potential and with the right breaks the Vikes could go a long way. But what happened in a game he did not even play in doesn't really mean much to me about what he will or won't do. It brings up some good debate though. Specifcally on what qualities a team needs to get through the rigors of the season and the intensity of the playoffs just to have the chance to play in that one game. I agree with you about what the Vikes have and where they need to focus going forward building the roster. It looks good!
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Realistically, IMO, any one of the four conference champioship teams could have played in that game and won it. A lot of things have to go right and it pays to be deep in the aspect of adaptability on both sides of the ball.
If there is anything TB has consistently shown me thus far, it's that he strikes me as being quite adaptable. I'm not so sure about his superiors though.
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I saw an interview with Rivera before the game where he was talking to Madden in the offseason early in his Panthers tenure. He was lamenting about how the team kept losing close games in spite of him calling games and making decisions 'by the book'. Madden just told him there is no book. What's happening in the now on the field is what dictates.
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I think it's been said here already, but it bears repeating...It's nice to have a system or formula for winning games, but the moment you pigeonhole yourself into that formula, in spite of regular season success, you run the risk of having your pants pulled down in the bigger games.
I think it hapened to the Panthers to some degree....I hope the Vikes learn that lesson soon, cause I think it has happened to them frequently. There are presumably many reasons, but I think overall philosophy is a big part of it...and it can handcuff a team at the worst time.
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