Vikings OL and GM discussion

[mike2mike]

So the Vikings OL makes me want to do this --->

Bridgewater is often in retreat mode before the play really can get started. When he can sit back in the shotgun and step up into the pocket he's fine. But when he's under center and has inside pressure immediately and nowhere to go and he is forced to scramble... He either has to throw it away or make something happen with his legs or make a throw on the run.

Apparently we brought in Donald Penn as undrafted free agent... Coaches didn't see the potential in him, so we let him walk. He then signed with the Bucs and eventually made the pro bowl.
We also signed Mike Remmers of the street for 4 games and he never saw the active roster and let him walk. He has started for the Panthers at RT....
JaMarcus Webb was on our roster as a RT backing up Loadholdt until we let him walk, he now starts for the Raiders at RG.
There's probably others...
The problem doesn't seem to be an inability to bring in starting caliber talent. It's either determining who to keep and start or an inability to get the starters playing to their potential.

In part, the 5 step and 7 step drop also makes things a bit tougher on the OL... But I also think Zimmer was right to fire Davidson. I also think that we need to put a lot more emphasis on finding pass blockers than run blockers and running spread offense from shotgun. Adrian lead the league in rushing yards, but our offense was near last in yards. The gameplan may have made things easier on the defense, but I think we need to open things up. Bridgewater looked fine in December of 2014 without Adrian in the shotgun. We saw flashes out of him from under center vs Arizona too, but the spread offense will always be ideal for Bridgewater.

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2015/12/7/ ... gotta-give

Pro football focus actually rated Bridgewater as most accurate QB in the NFL when you take away catchable drops as well as passes batted at the line of scrimmage or thrown away... Partly due to him playing a bit more conservative as the coaches wanted him to. But that is an indication we should put more on his shoulders and let him sit back in the gun to mitigate some of the OL concerns and open things up and let him take chances a bit more.

Obviously we also probably need to make some acquisitions in the offseason to improve our OL.

[jackal]

I wouldn't mind most of the OL changing this offseason....you could almost pick five random NFL
players and do better..hoping the coaching change and a few people removed or replaced will give
us a decent OL

[Demi]

But I also think Zimmer was right to fire Davidson

He wasn't "fired". His contract expired, and they didn't resign him.
Spielman is the one in charge of the roster. Davidson had input, but I'm sure Norv had more. And the GM (Spielman) had the final say. Spielman has been in charge of the roster for the last four years. Along with his scouting department, the position coaches, and the offensive coordinators. Why the blame is put on the offensive line coach, I'm not sure. He's the bottom wrung of the ladder. It goes up from there. We'll see going forward, but losing the starting right guard, and instead of finding a replacement moving the starting right guard there...how did that work? Lose our center and starting right tackle to injury. What do we expect to happen? The idea we're going to sign/draft two or three replacement starters seems silly to me. It isn't that easy...

[slapnut19]

supposedly there will be "competition" next camp, but i don't see how you pay kalil, sullivan, and loadholt their expected 2016 salaries to have them compete. you don't pay them starter money if they aren't viewed as such. i'd jettison those three and start over with one free agent signing and one lineman drafted in the first two rds. berger is an option at center and guard, and i expect harris will be back in some capacity as well. fusco and clemmings had rough years but both are young and i'd like to see what sparano could do with them. there's also the young guys easton, siriles, shepard and byowski who will be in the mix as well.

[losperros]

He wasn't "fired". His contract expired, and they didn't resign him.
Spielman is the one in charge of the roster. Davidson had input, but I'm sure Norv had more. And the GM (Spielman) had the final say. Spielman has been in charge of the roster for the last four years. Along with his scouting department, the position coaches, and the offensive coordinators. Why the blame is put on the offensive line coach, I'm not sure. He's the bottom wrung of the ladder. It goes up from there. We'll see going forward, but losing the starting right guard, and instead of finding a replacement moving the starting right guard there...how did that work? Lose our center and starting right tackle to injury. What do we expect to happen? The idea we're going to sign/draft two or three replacement starters seems silly to me. It isn't that easy...

No, it isn't that easy. I think OL depth is a problem that could and should have been worked on earlier than now. I'm not saying the Vikings didn't find some backups but it was out of panic, and not from smart planning (as it should be). The battle of the trenches still determines what team wins the war in the NFL.

[Demi]

supposedly there will be "competition" next camp, but i don't see how you pay kalil, sullivan, and loadholt their expected 2016 salaries to have them compete. you don't pay them starter money if they aren't viewed as such. i'd jettison those three and start over with one free agent signing and one lineman drafted in the first two rds. berger is an option at center and guard, and i expect harris will be back in some capacity as well. fusco and clemmings had rough years but both are young and i'd like to see what sparano could do with them. there's also the young guys easton, siriles, shepard and byowski who will be in the mix as well.

You just want to let three starter caliber players go. And keep Fusco, who didn't look that great last year. And Harris who at least looked solid. But three new starters who no one knows how they will work out? We could be in the exact same situation next year. Heck, it's possible if we let Kalil, Sullivan, and Loadholt go...we downgrade at all three positions. Possibly two, and likely at least one.

As much as I'd love some new fangled state of the art athletic line, I think it's more likely we go into next year with Kalil, Fusco, Loadholt, and Harris/Sullivan/Berger as starters. I'm not sure we need to blow it up *this* season. At least bring in some guys and see if they can play. Maybe for one year Kalil/FAorDraft/SullivanorBerger/Fusco/HarrisorLoadholt. That seems more likely. Or some combination like that. I'm not sure three new starters going into next year is going to make Bridgewater feel much more secure.

[The Breeze]

I'm certainly not counting on Phil and/or Sully, or even Kalil for that matter...but I see no reason to let them go before camp. If they don't win the job they can be let go og then, but at least give them the opportunity.
If Kalil has bad knees he may never be reliable.
It could take a good while just to get the starters set and playing well. Adding quality depth could be a real journey.
It could all work out perefctly too. It's THE offseason story for sure.

[slapnut19]

I'm certainly not counting on Phil and/or Sully, or even Kalil for that matter...but I see no reason to let them go before camp. If they don't win the job they can be let go og then, but at least give them the opportunity.
If Kalil has bad knees he may never be reliable.
It could take a good while just to get the starters set and playing well. Adding quality depth could be a real journey.
It could all work out perefctly too. It's THE offseason story for sure.

i just don't see how you keep sully and loadholt and bring in legit competition that can start. if they can't make it through camp then we are in the same boat we were in last season.

[slapnut19]

You just want to let three starter caliber players go. And keep Fusco, who didn't look that great last year. And Harris who at least looked solid. But three new starters who no one knows how they will work out? We could be in the exact same situation next year. Heck, it's possible if we let Kalil, Sullivan, and Loadholt go...we downgrade at all three positions. Possibly two, and likely at least one.

As much as I'd love some new fangled state of the art athletic line, I think it's more likely we go into next year with Kalil, Fusco, Loadholt, and Harris/Sullivan/Berger as starters. I'm not sure we need to blow it up *this* season. At least bring in some guys and see if they can play. Maybe for one year Kalil/FAorDraft/SullivanorBerger/Fusco/HarrisorLoadholt. That seems more likely. Or some combination like that. I'm not sure three new starters going into next year is going to make Bridgewater feel much more secure.

i guess the question to ask is was did the 2014 o line perform well? if you roll out the came cast of characters from then i don't know why you would expect better results.

[The Breeze]

@Slap
I'm not getting why other guys with starter potential can't be brought in to compete for the jobs during camp along with everyone else.

[slapnut19]

@Slap
I'm not getting why other guys with starter potential can't be brought in to compete for the jobs during camp along with everyone else.

we are set to have one of the highest o line payrolls in the league for 2016 if every comes back at their current salaries. i just don't see how from a cap perspective how we can add any quality vets. we may get some one year rentals, but even those may cost 3-5 mil.

[mike2mike]

He wasn't "fired". His contract expired, and they didn't resign him.
Spielman is the one in charge of the roster. Davidson had input, but I'm sure Norv had more. And the GM (Spielman) had the final say. Spielman has been in charge of the roster for the last four years. Along with his scouting department, the position coaches, and the offensive coordinators. Why the blame is put on the offensive line coach, I'm not sure. He's the bottom wrung of the ladder. It goes up from there. We'll see going forward, but losing the starting right guard, and instead of finding a replacement moving the starting right guard there...how did that work? Lose our center and starting right tackle to injury. What do we expect to happen? The idea we're going to sign/draft two or three replacement starters seems silly to me. It isn't that easy...

Thanks for correcting that. I had the impression when Zimmer said "Davidson wouldn't be back" because "he didn't want him back" that he was firing him. I think you make some good points here.

As to why the blame gets put on Davidson and not Speilman? I think that's because of philosophy. Spielman's philosophy is to surround himself with guys he trusts to delegate decisions, and lean on them heavily... So if Speilman brings along his first coach in Zimmer in 2014 and delegates role of hiring positional coaches and coordinators, and Zimmer thinks he can do better... Speilman trusts his expertise until given a good reason why he should 't.

The most significant evidence against Davidson is he had the same starting group in 2012 together the following year (2 years minus Fusco injury?) and they regressed. The other reason I blame Davidson and not Spielman is the front office brings in the talent and the OL coach develops and refines that talent. I believe good talent has been brought in at a reasonable cost (as evidenced by how well they play the first year or two)... I believe the development is good, but not extraordinary.

Kalil had a good first year then regressed. Charlie Johnson regressed every year. Sullivan's development was most substantial in 2008-2010 before Davidson got here. Fusco got up to NFL speed after a rough starting year and had one good year before he failed to make additional progress. Harris okay. I'm okay with how Loadholdt developed. I'm impressed by how quickly Clemmings got up to speed. I think Davidson is good at getting players ready to go initially, but after that it falls apart over time.

I think if you're Ziggy Wilf, you either trust Speilman's philosophy or you don't. As long as you continue to trust his philosophy and continue to believe in his ability to deliver on that philosophy, you let him do his job and let those he has hired do theirs.

With Davidson, I get the impression we can do better, or should at least try. If the goal is to win the Super Bowl, we probably need to be elite pretty close to every positional group as a whole. That means that providing a certainly good, but certainly not elite outcome is unacceptable, even if the alternative is uncertainty.

[jackal]

With Davidson, I get the impression we can do better, or should at least try. If the goal is to win the Super Bowl, we probably need to be elite pretty close to every positional group as a whole. That means that providing a certainly good, but certainly not elite outcome is unacceptable, even if the alternative is uncertainty.

I know Oakland has one of our guys that we cut and he seemed to play decent.. not sure if that's coaching or just got better
with hard work. I am hoping Sprano(sp) does a real good job and we fix the issue..

[Purple bruise]

Thanks for correcting that. I had the impression when Zimmer said "Davidson wouldn't be back" because "he didn't want him back" that he was firing him. I think you make some good points here.

As to why the blame gets put on Davidson and not Speilman? I think that's because of philosophy. Spielman's philosophy is to surround himself with guys he trusts to delegate decisions, and lean on them heavily... So if Speilman brings along his first coach in Zimmer in 2014 and delegates role of hiring positional coaches and coordinators, and Zimmer thinks he can do better... Speilman trusts his expertise until given a good reason why he should 't.

The most significant evidence against Davidson is he had the same starting group in 2012 together the following year (2 years minus Fusco injury?) and they regressed. The other reason I blame Davidson and not Spielman is the front office brings in the talent and the OL coach develops and refines that talent. I believe good talent has been brought in at a reasonable cost (as evidenced by how well they play the first year or two)... I believe the development is good, but not extraordinary.

Kalil had a good first year then regressed. Charlie Johnson regressed every year. Sullivan's development was most substantial in 2008-2010 before Davidson got here. Fusco got up to NFL speed after a rough starting year and had one good year before he failed to make additional progress. Harris okay. I'm okay with how Loadholdt developed. I'm impressed by how quickly Clemmings got up to speed. I think Davidson is good at getting players ready to go initially, but after that it falls apart over time.

I think if you're Ziggy Wilf, you either trust Speilman's philosophy or you don't. As long as you continue to trust his philosophy and continue to believe in his ability to deliver on that philosophy, you let him do his job and let those he has hired do theirs.

With Davidson, I get the impression we can do better, or should at least try. If the goal is to win the Super Bowl, we probably need to be elite pretty close to every positional group as a whole. That means that providing a certainly good, but certainly not elite outcome is unacceptable, even if the alternative is uncertainty.

One point here and since it was brought up, when some employee is hired and signed to a contract and that contract ends and comes up for an extension or renewal and that employee is not resigned, then anyway that you cut it he was fired. ie. no longer has a job with the Vikings, pack his gear and hit the road, your services have been terminated......it is a moot point but he was fired as was strength coach Coach Evan Marcus. So, if you have a job and your boss "let's you go", your butt has been fired.
From the Twin Cities Pioneer Press: " Vikings: Offensive changes begin with firing line coach Jeff Davidson http://www.twincities.com/2016/01/12/vi ... -davidson/

[jackal]

One point here and since it was brought up, when some employee is hired and signed to a contract and that contract ends and comes up for an extension or renewal and that employee is not resigned, then anyway that you cut it he was fired. ie. no longer has a job with the Vikings, pack his gear and hit the road, your services have been terminated......it is a moot point but he was fired as was strength coach Coach Evan Marcus. So, if you have a job and your boss "let's you go", your butt has been fired.
From the Twin Cities Pioneer Press: " Vikings: Offensive changes begin with firing line coach Jeff Davidson http://www.twincities.com/2016/01/12/vi ... -davidson/

Agreed, if you lose your job, what's the difference?