Brian Robison: weak sauce

[Purple bruise]

Wow He's definitely playing much better than I thought then!!!

Hmmm do not confuse the know it alls with facts

[Mothman]

We went through this before. I posted clips of Udeze's "hurries", many of which accomplished nothing. How many of these "hurries" actually result in a positive for the offense? It's one thing if he forces the QB into an early throw that isn't complete, or a sack from a defensive tackle, but they give "hurries" on plays where the QB steps up, throws a completion for a first down. Tell me how that is a positive for the defense?

Do you see anyone claiming the plays where a QB steps up and throws a completion for a first down are positive for the defense?

Nobody is saying every hurry results in a positive play but the incompletions, sacks, turnovers, etc. are positives. In the end, is there any question that getting pressure on the QB is better than not getting pressure on the QB?

[Purple bruise]

Do you see anyone claiming the plays where a QB steps up and throws a completion for a first down are positive for the defense?

Nobody is saying every hurry results in a positive play but the incompletions, sacks, turnovers, etc. are positives. In the end, is there any question that getting pressure on the QB is better than not getting pressure on the QB?

Yeah, look how Teddy and Ponder have done when they are hurried into throws...rest my case.

[Demi]

Do you see anyone claiming the plays where a QB steps up and throws a completion for a first down are positive for the defense?

Nobody is saying every hurry results in a positive play but the incompletions, sacks, turnovers, etc. are positives. In the end, is there any question that getting pressure on the QB is better than not getting pressure on the QB?

If he runs around the QB and doesn't affect the play in the slightest way, how does that mean anything one way or the other? Should he be getting kudos for getting within X steps of the QB, whether or not that results in the QB making any adjustment for it? He gets credit when he overruns the pocket and has zero impact on a play, in some cases leaving a lane for the QB to step up into and gets rewarded with a "hurry".

[PurpleKoolaid]

I hope Rick, being the awesome sauce of a GM that he is, can find someone willing to pay/trade a lot for an old LDE, that is only famous for hurries on the QB. If they are that important, some team should be pay HUGE money for him.

OTOH, I don't we will get anything more for him then we did for JA. I hate sounding like such a pessimist, but I don't think he is that good. And If he is, we better trade him while he has value. I am betting theres quite a few younger DE's we can get to rush the QB.

[BGM]

Robison excelled as a secondary threat. When he had Allen across from him to eat up blockers, he was free to roam and make noise. I think Griffen gets his results because offenses focus more on stopping Robison, based more probably on his reputation than on his reality. What I would like to see is two real bookend DEs who can bring consistent pressure and collapse the pocket. Are there any teams out there who currently have that?

[BGM]

nm

[Mothman]

If he runs around the QB and doesn't affect the play in the slightest way, how does that mean anything one way or the other? Should he be getting kudos for getting within X steps of the QB, whether or not that results in the QB making any adjustment for it?

If the QB didn't have to make any adjustment, it wouldn't make much sense to classify a play as a hurry in the first place.

He gets credit when he overruns the pocket and has zero impact on a play, in some cases leaving a lane for the QB to step up into and gets rewarded with a "hurry".

He does? From whom? If you have some sort of detailed or inside info on which plays PFF are classifying as hurries, please share it with the rest of us.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I hope Rick, being the awesome sauce of a GM that he is,

.....dude literally in EVERY THREAD.....we get it

can find someone willing to pay/trade a lot for an old LDE, that is only famous for hurries on the QB.

Famous only for QB hurries huh? First of all, hurries show that you are getting penetration and getting the better of your man most of the time and yes he does a great job of that. Are you also talking about the same guy that has had 8-9 sacks consistently for the past 3 years? Along with 6 FFs, 4 FRs, and 11 PDs?? That guy??

Just because he isn't breaking the NFL record in sacks this year like you expect him to doesn't mean he's "not good". Another post without much backing other than "he's not good" (according to PK's standards that is). He's been one of our most consistent players over the past 3 years. The stats don't lie

[PurpleKoolaid]

.....dude literally in EVERY THREAD.....we get it

Famous only for QB hurries huh? First of all, hurries show that you are getting penetration and getting the better of your man most of the time and yes he does a great job of that. Are you also talking about the same guy that has had 8-9 sacks consistently for the past 3 years? Along with 6 FFs, 4 FRs, and 11 PDs?? That guy??

Just because he isn't breaking the NFL record in sacks this year like you expect him to doesn't mean he's "not good". Another post without much backing other than "he's not good" (according to PK's standards that is). He's been one of our most consistent players over the past 3 years. The stats don't lie

He had JA on the other end from him. Hence his sacks. He wasn't double teamed, JA was.

And you make it sound like hurries are the best thing in the NFL. Even better then you thought!!! So I am hoping Rick can get some real good picks for the 31 year old, declining DE. It only makes sense, since hurries are so much more important then plain old sacks. Stats don't lie, therefore we should expect a big payday if Rick can spin the right deal. We are a young team, don't forget. And yeah that guy, the one who kicked the Packer in the nuts, on TV.

[Pondering Her Percy]

He had JA on the other end from him. Hence his sacks. He wasn't double teamed, JA was.

And you make it sound like hurries are the best thing in the NFL. Even better then you thought!!! So I am hoping Rick can get some real good picks for the 31 year old, declining DE. It only makes sense, since hurries are so much more important then plain old sacks. Stats don't lie, therefore we should expect a big payday if Rick can spin the right deal. We are a young team, don't forget. And yeah that guy, the one who kicked the Packer in the nuts, on TV.

Ok Allen might have been double teamed at times but how on earth do you have any clue that Allen was getting double teamed when Robison was getting his sacks??? You don't. You're just assuming. Allen had his fair share of double teams but it's not like he is getting double teams in every single play. These sacks below are the only ones I could find on YouTube at this time and they prove that your excuse about Allen getting double teamed is false. I couldn't find a single sack of Robisons where Allen was doubled. What's your excuse this time?? Kevin Williams was doubled??

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vlthon7fkrs

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHiXNEcHKJI

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=99bu8pKYsr0

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5BV7SPHifPU

As for the hurries....how do I make them sound like the best thing in the NFL??? I simply said that they show you are getting penetration and often times getting the best of your man does it not?? I mean I feel like that's pretty obvious. As well as getting pressure on the QB

[Mothman]

Here's an interesting article with relevance to this thread:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Grif ... heme102214

Michael Johnson didn't reach double-digit sack numbers until his fourth season under Cincinnati Bengals defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer, now the head coach for the Minnesota Vikings.

Johnson's patience was tested as he bought into Zimmer's defensive scheme, one that teaches defensive linemen to occupy blockers and play the run before gunning after the quarterback.

"I shouldn't say [Johnson] was never worried about numbers, because I had him in my office a couple times," Zimmer said. "I told him if you keep hanging in there...everything will work out -- and it did."

He doesn't seem to have skipped a beat in transitioning to a new defense, but Robison hasn't been able to finish a QB rush with a sack this season. Only Chicago's Lamarr Houston has more total pressures (25) than Robison (23) without having credit for a full sack this season, per Pro Football Focus.

"Very much so," Zimmer said when asked about Robison. "Guys like him, the hardest thing for guys that aren't getting numbers is, like I was talking about with Michael a minute ago, they start to panic. 'Oh, I'm not getting this. Or, 'oh, i'm not getting that.' But really, guys just stick with it and understand it's a long season. Sacks are hard to get in the first place, but if they'll keep sticking with it...then he'll have a lot of success, I believe that."

Griffen represents the opposite side of the coin for Zimmer's 'team' scheme.

I love these 2 quotes from Mike Zimmer and how much they reveal about a coach's mentality as opposed to the way many of us fans (and the media as well) tend to look at things:

"Honestly, I didn't know who got sacks," Zimmer said. "I didn't know, I never know who has interceptions or whatever, until I asked someone the other day, who else has sacks on this team? I was told Tom Johnson has got four. That's a product of other guys doing their job as well. I've always felt like what's good for everybody becomes good for each of us."

"We had a couple guys with big numbers," Zimmer said. "But we had a lot of guys with numbers, to me that's way more important."

[HardcoreVikesFan]

As for the hurries....how do I make them sound like the best thing in the NFL??? I simply said that they show you are getting penetration and often times getting the best of your man does it not?? I mean I feel like that's pretty obvious. As well as getting pressure on the QB

At the end of the day, do pressures really mean anything though? Look at Kenechi Udeze. In 2006 he started EVERY game and was sack less. He led the NFL pressures though. The result? Our defense still ranked dead last in pass yards per game allowed.

Cumulative pressure can affect a QB, but it doesn't mean anything if you cannot finish and get the sack. Especially nowadays where so many QBs are adept at throwing under duress. Getting a sack typically involves negative yardage and stalls a down-series, whereas pressuring may simply hurry a throw, but there is a pretty good chance that ball is getting completed.

To me, pressures are a worthless feel-good statistic. But that is just me personally.

[PacificNorseWest]

One person getting pressue can almost be counter productive against a quarterback who knows how to move in the pocket. However -- and I think this is what Zimmer alludes to when he talks about it essentially not mattering who gets sacks because it's all a product of other guys doing their job -- when multiple players get pressure on the quarterback it collapses the pocket where any number of great things can happen for the defense more times than not. Passing lanes limited or restricted, rushed throws leading to inaccurate ones, possible strip of the football and of course sacks.

And I think another large factor is the secondary's ability to cover. If one guy is getting pressure, but the quarterback simply steps up to a wide open receiver, it's all within rhythym and a fairly easy play to make. An entire unit that is great at getting to the quarterback can make a secondary better than it really might be with a lesser line or at least hides their ineffeciencies to a point. See: Detroit Lions.

[Mothman]

At the end of the day, do pressures really mean anything though? Look at Kenechi Udeze. In 2006 he started EVERY game and was sack less. He led the NFL pressures though. The result? Our defense still ranked dead last in pass yards per game allowed.

Cumulative pressure can affect a QB, but it doesn't mean anything if you cannot finish and get the sack.

That depends entirely on the outcome of the play. If pressure results in a hurry it often disrupts the play and leads to a positive result for the defense. That certainly seems meaningful and we see it happen all the time. Think about the last three games. Bridgewater and Ponder have been sacked a total of 19 times, which is a lot, but were those 19 plays the only plays where pressure by the opposing defense led to a negative result for the Vikings offense?

A few weeks ago, in a thread here, some of us were dissecting and debating about a play early in the Green Bay game where Loadholt's defender got by him at the snap, immediately creating pressure that led to a holding call and disrupted the play, forcing Ponder out of the pocket. There was no sack on that play but the pressure created a 10 yard loss due to a penalty and led to an incompletion.

It would be easy to go through games and find example after example of plays where hurrying the QB led to a good result for the defense. How can the idea that pressure means anything even be in question when you can see the answer in virtually every football game? Sure, not every pressure or hurry leads to a positive result for the defense but it's a demonstrable fact that some of them do so hurries are anything but a worthless feel-good statistic.