Jerome Simpson (35 snaps) sure talks a lot for a guy who hasn't made many plays all season. He did lead the Vikings with four catches for 27 yards, including a sliding grab for 11 on a shallow cross against Jenkins and a curl for 13 with CB Cortland Finnegan on his hip. He also seemed to break at the wrong depth on a couple third downs, blocked as lazily as usual and got bailed out when his fumble bounced of bounds. It seems a given the Vikings will wring what they can from him the next two games and then say goodbye.
Some positive for Musgrave that isn't always obvious:
The Rams tried 4-4 and 5-3 fronts, too, but Musgrave countered with surprise alignments from his two-tight sets and kept them guessing.
Another nugget I found interesting:
DT Christian Ballard (40) finally seems to be coming on. He beat LG Rob Turner for a sack in 2.8 seconds, hit Bradford two other times, had some positive turns in the run game and got his first five snaps of the season at end.
One thing I found in this was that ponder only attempted 1 pass over 12 yards and that one was incomplete. Sure, he went 17/24, but that was just because of the little short passes. If those are the only passes he can accurately throw, than why not just hand the ball off to AD every time? ANY qb in the league can accurately throw the passes ponder does. My point is, ponder adds absolutely no deep threat to our team, which is very important in this league. I also think it is not as much the WR's fault on the deep ball's as it is ponders fault. Almost every deep pass i've seen him throw has been way off target and was easily deflected or intercepted.
Dark wrote:One thing I found in this was that ponder only attempted 1 pass over 12 yards and that one was incomplete. Sure, he went 17/24, but that was just because of the little short passes. If those are the only passes he can accurately throw, than why not just hand the ball off to AD every time?
You have to keep defenses honest and can't be completely one-dimensional (even though the Vikings are treading as close to that as anyone in the league).
ANY qb in the league can accurately throw the passes ponder does.
I don't know about that. Did you watch the Jets-Titans game last night? Ponder also fit some balls into pretty tight coverage last week (and over the course of the season). Of course, he's missed often too.
My point is, ponder adds absolutely no deep threat to our team, which is very important in this league. I also think it is not as much the WR's fault on the deep ball's as it is ponders fault. Almost every deep pass i've seen him throw has been way off target and was easily deflected or intercepted.
It's all perspective. I've seen him throw some remarkably nice deep passes this year. However it seems they have waned in the last 5 games or so, both in number of opportunities and execution. Of course, it doesn't help to have some of the most inept "deep threat" receivers in the NFL.
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly
I get the no deep ball stuff, we all saw it. However, we also heard his head coach praise him for doing exactly what they wanted him to do. That same head coach also said they won the way they are built to win.
Ponder's relative value aside, I do not think you are going to see a 300 yard game from a QB on this team. They are just not coached that way, the OC doesn't run that kind of offense, and you have #28. I get the sense that Frasier's ideal offensive stat line would be 200+ yards rushing and maybe 150 yards passing. He seems content to dominate the TOP, commit as few TO as possible, and let his defense carry the day. Low risk football all around.
It should be noted that SF is built and operated under a similar philosophy. Their defense is big and physical and they like to run the ball. In the pasing game they have far more pieces than we do, but over 70% of their throws are short. So it isn't unheard of to want to do this. (Not comparing the players, just the style) Whether that is effective in the 2012 NFL might be questioned given the proliferation of passing offenses, but the 49ers are contending for a bye week in the playoffs and we still have an outside shot at a wildcard.
You certainly need a QB to win in the NFL, but this season has shown that with a dominant rushing attack and a solid defense you can win games.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
mansquatch wrote:I get the no deep ball stuff, we all saw it. However, we also heard his head coach praise him for doing exactly what they wanted him to do. That same head coach also said they won the way they are built to win.
Ponder's relative value aside, I do not think you are going to see a 300 yard game from a QB on this team. They are just not coached that way, the OC doesn't run that kind of offense, and you have #28. I get the sense that Frasier's ideal offensive stat line would be 200+ yards rushing and maybe 150 yards passing. He seems content to dominate the TOP, commit as few TO as possible, and let his defense carry the day. Low risk football all around.
It should be noted that SF is built and operated under a similar philosophy. Their defense is big and physical and they like to run the ball. In the pasing game they have far more pieces than we do, but over 70% of their throws are short. So it isn't unheard of to want to do this. (Not comparing the players, just the style) Whether that is effective in the 2012 NFL might be questioned given the proliferation of passing offenses, but the 49ers are contending for a bye week in the playoffs and we still have an outside shot at a wildcard.
You certainly need a QB to win in the NFL, but this season has shown that with a dominant rushing attack and a solid defense you can win games.
Agreed. The Texans are also in this mold. Conversely, the Falcons and Packers are at the opposite end while the Colts, Pats, Broncos and Ravens are generally more balanced. Multiple formulas can be successful, with the right parts and execution.
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly
mansquatch wrote:I get the no deep ball stuff, we all saw it. However, we also heard his head coach praise him for doing exactly what they wanted him to do. That same head coach also said they won the way they are built to win.
Ponder's relative value aside, I do not think you are going to see a 300 yard game from a QB on this team. They are just not coached that way, the OC doesn't run that kind of offense, and you have #28. I get the sense that Frasier's ideal offensive stat line would be 200+ yards rushing and maybe 150 yards passing. He seems content to dominate the TOP, commit as few TO as possible, and let his defense carry the day. Low risk football all around.
It should be noted that SF is built and operated under a similar philosophy. Their defense is big and physical and they like to run the ball. In the pasing game they have far more pieces than we do, but over 70% of their throws are short. So it isn't unheard of to want to do this. (Not comparing the players, just the style) Whether that is effective in the 2012 NFL might be questioned given the proliferation of passing offenses, but the 49ers are contending for a bye week in the playoffs and we still have an outside shot at a wildcard.
You certainly need a QB to win in the NFL, but this season has shown that with a dominant rushing attack and a solid defense you can win games.
I agree with much of your assessment regarding the Vikings. When they run aggressively, don't turn the ball over and play physical football, that's when they win. And the Vikings would be crazy to play against the grain of their talent on the field. They wouldn't be 8-6 right now if they did.
Okay, that said, we're still seeing elite teams that can both run and pass, which is always the best. I'm beginning to buy into just how much impact a good QB has on the receivers, if not the entire offense, and how he makes them all play better. I badly want Ponder to succeed but I believe Musgrave would have him do more if Ponder only could. Plus I firmly believe the Vikings need a lot more from their receivers. Jarius Wright is rookie who hasn't played much, so I'll cut him some slack. However, I won't cut the veteran receivers who play below mediocre any slack at all. The Vikings passing game is broken. Tom Pelissero is right. Look for some changes next year at least among the WRs.
losperros wrote: However, I won't cut the veteran receivers who play below mediocre any slack at all. The Vikings passing game is broken. Tom Pelissero is right. Look for some changes next year at least among the WRs.
Barring injury, if we're starting Jenkins and Simpson next season I will consider that a failure by the front office. We can't go into 2013 this inept at wideout again.
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly
I predict Simpson will be back unless they see something from Wright that makes them decide he is expendable. Only reason I say that is the comments Frasier has made about his nagging back injury and the fact he still seems to be the defacto #1 WR. What does that say about the Coach’s faith in the rest of them? My guess is Jenkins and Aromashadu are more expendable. That still leaves the question of whether he can be more productive when healthy as well as his consistency problems.
I think the Vikings are a special rushing team because of AP. The Rams did everything possible to stuff the run and they still failed horribly. AP isn’t just good or great, he is a truly legendary talent. His talent is such that the Vikings can get away with being more run heavy than any other club in the NFL, and they should do this. The Vikings are hitting on a formula for success. Strong Physical line play in front of AP, plus a game manager QB and a stout defense. No reason it cannot work with a back like #28. It has worked. They just need to clean up the sloppiness of #7 and good things will happen.
In reading Pelissaro’s take on the Secondary I’m wondering if CB is going to creep into our Draft priorities? I do agree though, that the LB situation is the worse of the two. Brinkley and Henderson should not be too hard to upgrade.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
mansquatch wrote:IPonder's relative value aside, I do not think you are going to see a 300 yard game from a QB on this team. They are just not coached that way, the OC doesn't run that kind of offense, and you have #28.
They simply don't really have the weapons or the philosophy to do it often but we have seen 300 yard passing performances from Ponder, both last season and this season. He threw for 352 against the Redskins and for 381 against Denver last year.
I get the sense that Frasier's ideal offensive stat line would be 200+ yards rushing and maybe 150 yards passing. He seems content to dominate the TOP, commit as few TO as possible, and let his defense carry the day. Low risk football all around.
I think he'd love that but he's smart enough to know they can't win that way every week. I do believe he likes that kind of football (I do too) but I also believe we'd see a more aggressive passing game if this coaching staff believed that was strategy for success with this personnel. They clearly don't feel that way and based on what we've seen this season, I think they're right.
Ponder probably can throw the deep ball, and has, a few times, many weeks ago. For some reason he isn't doing it anymore, and he probably isn't being coached to throw deep. Running back and short tight end throws have become the norm, and none of this, "we don't have any WRs nonsense." Every team has pro players who can run at least as fast as the other team'd dbs, and can catch as well. It's got to be a combination of the qb/wr sourness. Like a locker room that has a dark cloud of failure over it, (KC, Jax, Oakland, Pilly), somehow, somewhere, the qb/wr combo for the Vikes has all but given up. When they do try, the success is minimal! There can't truly be any forum brothers who actually "believe" the Vikings have a bunch of wide outs who "can't" catch, or get separation, or whatever. It's got to be more of the lack of cohesiveness between the hand that throws, and the hands that catch, but more so their hearts/heads, no blend, no confidence. Ponder doesn't hit them in the numbers immediately on 20 yard curls, the "zip" isn't there, so no fast fling/catches happen. That's why forum members say the Vikings receivers can't get separation. No receiver ever continually plays and has a 5 yard separation constantly, therefore tight "zipped" balls are thrown and caught...on other teams every week. As long as this trend continues, the opposing dbs, and defensive coordinators will not fear the Viking pass, but dread the run. That's all Musgrave, Ponder and the wide outs have given them, AP.
I'm thinking more hypothetical here Moth. Do they need that prolific of a passing offense or would they be better served adding talent on the OL to increase their dominance? Is AP such a special talent that you can break the traditional mold?
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
mansquatch wrote:I'm thinking more hypothetical here Moth. Do they need that prolific of a passing offense or would they be better served adding talent on the OL to increase their dominance? Is AP such a special talent that you can break the traditional mold?
I'm not Jim but from my perspective, the answer is no. Even if you look at run-heavy, strong defensive teams like the Texans and Niners, they still have guys like Andre Johnson and Moss/Crabtree to keep the defense honest.
indianation65 wrote:Ponder probably can throw the deep ball, and has, a few times, many weeks ago. For some reason he isn't doing it anymore, and he probably isn't being coached to throw deep.
He just threw two of them a little over a week ago, against the Bears! The first was a nicely thrown pass Aromashodu failed to make a play on and the second was an under=thrown pass to Wright that resulted in an INT.
There can't truly be any forum brothers who actually "believe" the Vikings have a bunch of wide outs who "can't" catch, or get separation, or whatever.
Nobody believes it absolutely but the lack of separation, the drops, the failure to make plays on catchable passes, etc. are all there to be seen and have been all season. You're right, we aren't dealing in ridiculous absolutes here. Nobody is literally saying the Vikes WRs can't get open, can't catch. etc. They're saying they struggle to do those things. They aren't good by NFL standards and it's pretty obvious. Broadcasters and analysts have been pointing it out all season and so have some of us.
indianation65 wrote:Ponder probably can throw the deep ball, and has, a few times, many weeks ago. For some reason he isn't doing it anymore, and he probably isn't being coached to throw deep. Running back and short tight end throws have become the norm, and none of this, "we don't have any WRs nonsense." Every team has pro players who can run at least as fast as the other team'd dbs, and can catch as well. It's got to be a combination of the qb/wr sourness. Like a locker room that has a dark cloud of failure over it, (KC, Jax, Oakland, Pilly), somehow, somewhere, the qb/wr combo for the Vikes has all but given up. When they do try, the success is minimal! There can't truly be any forum brothers who actually "believe" the Vikings have a bunch of wide outs who "can't" catch, or get separation, or whatever. It's got to be more of the lack of cohesiveness between the hand that throws, and the hands that catch, but more so their hearts/heads, no blend, no confidence. Ponder doesn't hit them in the numbers immediately on 20 yard curls, the "zip" isn't there, so no fast fling/catches happen. That's why forum members say the Vikings receivers can't get separation. No receiver ever continually plays and has a 5 yard separation constantly, therefore tight "zipped" balls are thrown and caught...on other teams every week. As long as this trend continues, the opposing dbs, and defensive coordinators will not fear the Viking pass, but dread the run. That's all Musgrave, Ponder and the wide outs have given them, AP.
...wisdom through the obvious
I can't deny that it's between the QB and WR's. The problem with the WR's is that they have a trifecta of issues. Simpson repeatedly comes up short on the depth of his routes, they all run routes poorly, and to top it off they do have a lot of drops. It's 100% a consistency issue at WR, they're unpredictable, and that makes it really hard for Ponder to have faith and confidence in these guys. Ponder has his own struggles so it all essentially comes down to an ineffective passing game but I believe Peyton Manning wouldn't get a whole lot more out of these guys because Peyton is the definition of a guy relying on timing and good route running. He would be on these receivers non stop for these kind of mistakes and maybe that would be a good thing, who knows.
