Harvin, the Offense, and Ponder

[CalVike]

Others may have brought this up and if its for another thread, the mods can move it. But it's pretty clear to me now what Percy Harvin's gripe was before the season, given everybody argued it was not about his contract. In the minicamps, the Vikings installed this year's offense, with intent to rely on defense, Adrian Peterson, and a high percentage no margin for error passing game with nearly no possibility of interceptions. In the pre-season, they announced publicly that Ponder's goal was 70% completion percentage on first and second down. That cannot happen, in any offense, with a reliance on a mid-range to deep passing game. Harvin saw that, realized it was unworkable, and immediately asked to be traded. They also announced that Ponder would dive head first when going down rather than slide. It seemed odd at the time, but now it makes perfect sense. The offensive scheme calls for Ponder to break the pocket when his first read is not open and to minimize any risk of interception, resulting in a large amount of QB runs. What the Vikings did not count on, apparently, was that defenses would quickly wise up to this very simple offense and make even the short passing game very difficult to execute. They also put tremendous pressure on the offense, not to have any turnovers, ever, because the simple offense cannot overcome it. They also did not count on Ponder's footwork going to hell. Ponder said on radio today (KFAN, around 9:35 AM Minneapolis time) that the team is not working with him regularly on his mechanics. I agree with those who say Percy Harvin has played his last down as a Viking. Coach Leslie Frazier was careful all season not to make remarks like he made on Sunday, that the team was extremely happy with how Ponder executed the game plan on a day he threw for 91 yards and missed a wide open Jarius Wright for a TD, with Aromashadu dropping another long TD pass. The team is content with Ponder going 6-7 on third down and moving the chains four times to complement Adrian Peterson's running. They don't care how they win, just that they win. They are 7-6 with their vanilla approach. It may be enough to get them to the playoffs. But if it's not they will be open to severe criticism for running such a blase offense with zero margin for error and very little margin for passing success irrespective of the terrible QB play. Just my $0.02. I may be way off.

[saint33]

IMO you are indeed, way off.

I don't think harvins gripe had anything to do with ponder or the overall goals of the offensive system, I honestly beleive he was simply convinced he would be under utilized for the second straight season.

I don't quite understand your correlation on head first diving theory. Again, I dont think there's any deep reasoning for it beyond the obvious and already stated fact that Qbs have historically gotten seriously hurt more often diving feet first (well at least according to musgrave)

And lastly, I'm going to go on record here and say with complete certainty harvin HAS NOT played his last down for the Vikings, nor do I even understand where the idea that he's disgruntled comes from

[Eli]

I don't think harvins gripe had anything to do with ponder or the overall goals of the offensive system, I honestly beleive he was simply convinced he would be under utilized for the second straight season.

How would he know that, unless it was based on the offense that he saw being installed? I think to some degree, you're both correct.

Harvin will be back with the Vikings next year. After that, I'm not convinced. He seems like the type that may make negotiations difficult and then get pissed off that a deal isn't getting done. I could see it not happening before the season starts and then the Vikings refusing to negotiate during the season. Gonna be interesting.

[CalVike]

IMO you are indeed, way off

I don't think harvins gripe had anything to do with ponder or the overall goals of the offensive system, I honestly beleive he was simply convinced he would be under utilized for the second straight season.

But he caught 60 passes in half a season and now he was put on IR with 4 wks left. Why do that with one of only two difference makers when playoffs are on the line? It would seem smarter to keep trying each week to bring him back. He missed only 3 games in 3 yrs prior to this year and is a force on the field.

I don't quite understand your correlation on head first diving theory.

Totally fair point. It's obscure and impossible to substantiate. Weakest part of the argument. I will add only that diving gets more yardage than sliding, important in a simple offense.

And lastly, I'm going to go on record here and say with complete certainty harvin HAS NOT played his last down for the Vikings, nor do I even understand where the idea that he's disgruntled comes from

Well, his frustration on the sideline in Seattle suggests he's disgruntled as does the public demand to be traded. Childress brought with him a "with us or against us" approach to locker room chemistry with no tolerance for dissent or comments to the press that counter the system. The Vikings have continued the approach under Frazier with a more liked former player at the helm. All indications are that Harvin preferred the 2009 approach, his one season with a QB playing well and throwing downfield at will.

Again, just my opinion, I could be wrong. But I really think he is done as a Viking. I hope I am wrong. He's more valuable to the team than Spielman, Frazier, and Ponder combined.

[mansquatch]

The issue I see with your reasoning is that during the first half of the season Harvin was receiving accolades as an elite level playmaker. That happened in part because the offense was built around giving him tons of oppotunities to make plays with his skillset.

I believe his frustration early in the pre-season was financially related. I think the Seattle game and subsequent frustration has to do with the QB not turning the coroner and in his mind limiting his production.

Whether he has played his last game or not is highly speculative by anybody that doesn't work for the Vikings Front Office, IMO.

The fact that Ponder admitted they are not working with him on his mechanics is highly problematic. Is it bad coaching or is Ponder dissenting and making excuses? Either way, not good...

[Mothman]

Well, his frustration on the sideline in Seattle suggests he's disgruntled as does the public demand to be traded.

I think all his frustration on the sideline in Seattle suggests is that he was frustrated in the moment.

If you check back into the "trade" story, there was never a public demand to be traded. A "person with knowledge of the situation" told The Associated Press Harvin wanted to be traded. There was never a named source and never any more confirmation than that. Harvin wasn't quoted saying he wanted to be traded and there was no public statement from his agent on the subject. Harvin expressed that he was "unhappy" in the spring and then, after talking to Frazier, seemed fine. The whole thing was over and done pretty quickly. If I recall correctly, he didn't show any further indication of frustration or unhappiness with the offensive philosophy, etc. until the Vikings started losing and he briefly expressed frustration in the Seattle game. I understand why people want to connect the dots between Harvin's unhappiness in the spring and his frustration in the Seahawks game but it's not clear at all that there's actually a connection worth making. It's completely open to speculation.

Again, just my opinion, I could be wrong. But I really think he is done as a Viking. I hope I am wrong. He's more valuable to the team than Spielman, Frazier, and Ponder combined.

I just don't buy it. There has been nothing to indicate that since the rumor in the spring that he wanted to be traded. If that was more than a rumor, then he sure changed his mind fast and that probably just indicates what many reporters have said about Harvin in the past: he's an emotional guy.

If he really doesn't want to be a Viking anymore he'd better be prepared for a long, expensive hold out and an extremely contentious situation because he's under contract and they can slap the franchise tag on him in 2014. The Vikes hold all the cards.

My own theory on this is that as the season has progressed and fans have become angrier and more unhappy with Ponder and Musgrave, Harvin has become an easy screen on which to project their frustrations. He's supposedly going to leave because he's as frustrated as the fans are at the affront the Vikings poor passing game represents. As you said about your own theory, I could be way off but I just see almost no evidence to suggest Harvin has played his last down for the Vikings.

[Mothman]

I believe his frustration early in the pre-season was financially related. I think the Seattle game and subsequent frustration has to do with the QB not turning the coroner and in his mind limiting his production.

Great typo!

[CalVike]

As you said about your own theory, I could be way off but I just see almost no evidence to suggest Harvin has played his last down for the Vikings.

I hope you're right. I see no logic in putting him on IR. A chance at Harvin is infinitely more valuable than whoever took his roster spot when 10-6 and playoffs are the goal. An eight week ankle sprain with no tears is beyond strange. It just does not smell right to me.

[Cliff]

I hope you're right. I see no logic in putting him on IR. A chance at Harvin is infinitely more valuable than whoever took his roster spot when 10-6 and playoffs are the goal. An eight week ankle sprain with no tears is beyond strange. It just does not smell right to me.

Are you implying Harvin doesn't want to be on the field? Even if he's planning on leaving he would want to keep pumping up his stats to make himself more valuable. Being injured for the rest of the season is not a point in his favor coming up on a contract year.

[Mothman]

I hope you're right. I see no logic in putting him on IR. A chance at Harvin is infinitely more valuable than whoever took his roster spot when 10-6 and playoffs are the goal. An eight week ankle sprain with no tears is beyond strange. It just does not smell right to me.

There was a tear (he was diagnosed with a grade 3 sprain, which means a complete tear of the ligament). You're not alone in thinking something about it all doesn't smell right since even a grade 3 sprain supposedly has a 6 week recovery time.

Everybody is different. Maybe his body just wasn't responding well to treatment. Just before the Green Bay game, Kevin Siefert wrote:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_ ... -green-bay

When I was at practice on Thursday, Harvin was laboring to move faster than a walk. And for those of you who would like to see Harvin play at 50 or 60 percent in a crucial game, I'm not sure there is much of anything he can do to help the team at this point.

Frazier's statement on the matter was pretty straightforward:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... ed-surgery

Minnesota Vikings coach Leslie Frazier has his "fingers crossed" that Percy Harvin will not need surgery.

The star wide receiver abruptly was declared out for the season Wednesday with an ankle injury. Frazier denied that anything beyond the injury factored into the decision to place Harvin on injured reserve.

"You realize for him, as well as for our team, this was the best thing to do, as opposed to try to make something happen that's not going to happen," Frazier told FOX Sports North. "I think it helps all of us for him to concentrate on what he has to concentrate on from a physical standpoint, and knowing that he wasn't going to make the progress that was necessary for him to get back and play this season."

I don't know if any of that makes you feel better about the situation but there it is...

[Dark]

Maybe they made him sit out because we are rebuilding and they want him to be better next year

Not that I agree with doing that, but is that a possibility?

[PurpleMustReign]

Great typo!

LMAO... wow, the situation is worse than we thought...

[mansquatch]

LMAO... wow, the situation is worse than we thought...

I'll be here all week.

[Demi]

Harvin has become an easy screen on which to project their frustrations.

Easy because multiple times sources are reporting this stuff. They're just making it up? Where are these stories otherwise? Where's the story about other players asking for trades? They aren't there. Because it isn't even a question. Yet there they were bringing it up, a week later Harvin comes out and everything is peaches and cream?

Are you implying Harvin doesn't want to be on the field?

It doesn't even appear he wants to be on the sideline supporting his team.....(now that it was brought up in the media, he'll be on the sideline and it'll be a non-story that we were all "projecting our frustrations" on)

[tmscr]

I still think the vikes would be wise to shop Harvin around before he becomes disgruntled and/or asks for a giant pay raise. Whether rumor or not, I'm not 100% sold on his desire to be in Minnesota and the ball will be in his court come negotiation time. The vikings could walk away with peanuts for a guy with lots of talent, let alone the fact that there are huge doubts about the guy feeding him the ball. Don't wait til it's too late vikes!! Test the waters of the trade market!