Vikes/Bears post-game thoughts

[mansquatch]

Manning is in the twilight of his career. I can't say I know him or what he is thinking, but it seems illogical for him to have wanted to play here after our 2011 campaign.

I made a hypothetical in another thread about "what if" he had come here. I'd venture that with how our 2012 draft played out as well as with how players (like Sanford) have developed, plus the AP miracle recovery he would have ended up LOVING it here despite the crap WR on the outside. The key though is no one expected this much of a turn around when Manning was signed, hind sight 20/20 and all of that.

IMO, the same goes for Spielman's decision making in FA with regards to WR. Last year during FA the only known was that we had a ton of holes to fill and that it most likely would take some time to fill them. In that respect I think they took a very conservative approach to the WR market, not wanting to get stuck with a fat contract with so many other issues potentially coming down the pike. The moves they did make obviously did not play out well given the perfomance of the signings at TE/WR. However, I find it difficult to fault the decision making process that took place given what was known last Spring. Also, we may yet be surprised by Carlson/ Simpson. Both were injured this year, things could be better in 2013 (assuming they are still around).

As much as Ponder is frustrating, overall the roster has made immense improvements. We aren't "there" yet, but we are a heck of a lot closer than we were last season. Now if that QB guy can just get it together...

[PurpleKoolaid]

Manning is in the twilight of his career. I can't say I know him or what he is thinking, but it seems illogical for him to have wanted to play here after our 2011 campaign.

I made a hypothetical in another thread about "what if" he had come here. I'd venture that with how our 2012 draft played out as well as with how players (like Sanford) have developed, plus the AP miracle recovery he would have ended up LOVING it here despite the crap WR on the outside. The key though is no one expected this much of a turn around when Manning was signed, hind sight 20/20 and all of that.

IMO, the same goes for Spielman's decision making in FA with regards to WR. Last year during FA the only known was that we had a ton of holes to fill and that it most likely would take some time to fill them. In that respect I think they took a very conservative approach to the WR market, not wanting to get stuck with a fat contract with so many other issues potentially coming down the pike. The moves they did make obviously did not play out well given the perfomance of the signings at TE/WR. However, I find it difficult to fault the decision making process that took place given what was known last Spring. Also, we may yet be surprised by Carlson/ Simpson. Both were injured this year, things could be better in 2013 (assuming they are still around).

As much as Ponder is frustrating, overall the roster has made immense improvements. We aren't "there" yet, but we are a heck of a lot closer than we were last season. Now if that QB guy can just get it together...

Immense improvements and alot closer? The D line is worse, we have no QB, or backup QB, theres discussion our HC could be fired if we dont win another game, the Oline still doesnt pass protect well, everyone on the board complains about our WRs....is John Carlson the immense improvement? Smith helped the secondary, but just about anything could, our safeties have been horrible lately.

[J. Kapp 11]

It seems to me that Spielman is trying to go the Green Bay/New England route ... build through the draft.

After one draft where Spielman has been the GM (yes, he's been involved with the draft, but only under the TOA), the "build through the draft" plan seems to be working. The key to building your team that way is that drafts have to be deep ... your 3rd and 4th round picks have to pan out, and you need some lower picks to at least contribute. So it's encouraging that six rookies made significant contributions in Sunday's win against the Bears, including the two biggest plays of the game. Kalil and Smith have played every bit like first-rounders, and Josh Robinson is turning heads as a 3rd-rounder at CB. Rhett Ellison and Jarius Wright are doing a nice job as 4th rounders, and Walsh (6th) has been excellent.

And in the Green Bay/New England plan, you never trade draft picks for established players the way we did for Jared Allen. You're on the other end of such trades.

This is also why I believe Spielman is going to give Christian Ponder every opportunity in the world -- because he believes fundamentally in developing your draft choices rather than paying big bucks in free agency. Signing Jerome Simpson doesn't really violate that principle, as he's only signed for a year. And even the John Carlson signing isn't as bad as we might think on the surface. Carlson's base salaries are only guaranteed for '12 and '13, so he can be cut after next year, with the Vikings saving about half the contract value. The Vikings would take a $3.4 million cap hit in 2014, but the new TV deal kicks in, so the cap is expected to be much higher starting in 2014.

Of course, Ponder is the key. You can't win championships with crap quarterback play. If he continues down this slippery slope of awfulness that he's displayed for most of the past seven games, the plan is in trouble.

[Eli]

It seems to me that Spielman is trying to go the Green Bay/New England route ... build through the draft.

After one draft where Spielman has been the GM (yes, he's been involved with the draft, but only under the TOA), the "build through the draft" plan seems to be working.

After just one year, it's way too early to tell if the "plan" is working. It is a good start, as they do appear to have had a nice draft under Spielman.

The key to building your team that way is that drafts have to be deep ... your 3rd and 4th round picks have to pan out, and you need some lower picks to at least contribute.

Even for teams that don't build through the draft, this has to be true, at least in some years. No team can stay strong or get stronger without drafting well.

So it's encouraging that six rookies made significant contributions in Sunday's win against the Bears, including the two biggest plays of the game. Kalil and Smith have played every bit like first-rounders, and Josh Robinson is turning heads as a 3rd-rounder at CB. Rhett Ellison and Jarius Wright are doing a nice job as 4th rounders, and Walsh (6th) has been excellent.

Wright's contributions have been minimal. That he's getting playing time with such a bad receiving corps and Harvin out is unremarkable. It will be interesting to see where he is in a few years.

This is also why I believe Spielman is going to give Christian Ponder every opportunity in the world -- because he believes fundamentally in developing your draft choices rather than paying big bucks in free agency.

I think he's going to give him every chance, but not for that reason. Spielman has a huge ego, and the only way that draft pick will be anything but a colossal failure is if Ponder becomes a franchise quarterback.

[Demi]

And in the Green Bay/New England plan, you never trade draft picks for established players the way we did for Jared Allen. You're on the other end of such trades.

They traded for Wes Welker, just traded for Aqib Talib. Deion Branch. Randy Moss.
Obviously not to the degree we did. But look how much we got out of Allen, likely more than what we could have got out of whoever we drafted long or short term.
(Speaking of which a quick search showed the end result in terms of players for each team:
Kansas City sent Allen and a sixth-round draft pick in 2008 for the No. 17 overall pick, two third-round picks and a sixth-round pick. Kansas City turned the picks into tackle Branden Albert, running back Jamaal Charles, safety DaJuan Morgan and sixth-round pick Kevin Robinson. The Vikings turned the Chiefs’ sixth-round pick into center John Sullivan.)

I think it worked out just fine for both teams.

The rookies have looked good. Let's just hope they can keep it up. Building through the draft is great, but if you can't hit more often then not you're not going to have the players or depth that you might be able to if you supplement through free agency. Even the Patriots sign players now and then when necessary.

The single biggest difference, other than quarterback, is coaching. Draft or free agency, where is the development? Especially on offense. We're getting production out of later round players all over the place on defense. On offense we get it out of Sullivan...and that's about it. Including free agents. And it's been this way for years!

[J. Kapp 11]

They traded for Wes Welker, just traded for Aqib Talib. Deion Branch. Randy Moss.

Sure. They traded for Moss. A fourth-round pick. A throwaway. They actually gave up more for Wes Welker, which is almost mind-boggling. This is what Belichick does. He gets veterans for next to nothing, and he jettisons other veterans in trades to get draft picks. It's as if he has the rest of the league hypnotized.

Obviously not to the degree we did. But look how much we got out of Allen, likely more than what we could have got out of whoever we drafted long or short term.
(Speaking of which a quick search showed the end result in terms of players for each team:
Kansas City sent Allen and a sixth-round draft pick in 2008 for the No. 17 overall pick, two third-round picks and a sixth-round pick. Kansas City turned the picks into tackle Branden Albert, running back Jamaal Charles, safety DaJuan Morgan and sixth-round pick Kevin Robinson. The Vikings turned the Chiefs’ sixth-round pick into center John Sullivan.)

I think it worked out just fine for both teams.

I'm not saying the Allen trade was bad. Not at all. Don't mistake my analysis for my opinion. I'm just calling it like I see it. From everything Spielman has said, he wants to build through the draft as much as humanly possible. Green Bay is probably a better analogy for what Spielman appears to want than New England.

The rookies have looked good. Let's just hope they can keep it up. Building through the draft is great, but if you can't hit more often then not you're not going to have the players or depth that you might be able to if you supplement through free agency. Even the Patriots sign players now and then when necessary.

The single biggest difference, other than quarterback, is coaching. Draft or free agency, where is the development? Especially on offense. We're getting production out of later round players all over the place on defense. On offense we get it out of Sullivan...and that's about it. Including free agents. And it's been this way for years!

I'm not so sure. Peterson, Harvin, Rudolph, Kalil, Loadholt, Sullivan, Fusco -- all taken in the draft. Sure, Peterson, Harvin and Kalil haven't exactly needed a lot of development, as they're uber-talented. But if you count Ponder (which it pains me to do), eight of the eleven starters on offense were taken in the draft. The problem is that Harvin is on an island as far as WRs go, and Ponder's awfulness destroys everything else.