Chilli vs Frazier

[dead_poet]

How long did Childress have Tomlin?

A season. What's your point? That Childress imparted some kind of wisdom onto Tomlin that made him good? You want them to be so good they're already gone?

[PurpleKoolaid]

You're right. Frazier has had two whole seasons with the same coaches, plenty of time for those guys to establish themselves, take other jobs and achieve greatness.[/quote]
How long did Childress have Tomlin?[/quote]

A season. What's your point? That Childress imparted some kind of wisdom onto Tomlin that made him good? You want them to be so good they're already gone?[/quote]
What was yours about Fraizer having 2 whole years? At least Childress knew 1 good DC coach.

[dead_poet]

What was yours about Fraizer having 2 whole years? At least Childress knew 1 good DC coach.

Let's not get into this again. Frazier was more than a competent defensive coordinator and the stats reflect that.

And it's hard to blame a coordinator when most of your receivers shouldn't be starters, your only legit starting WR isn't playing due to injury and your quarterback is playing like he doesn't belong on a high school field.

[DanAS]

You're right. Frazier has had two whole seasons with the same coaches, plenty of time for those guys to establish themselves, take other jobs and achieve greatness.

How long did Childress have Tomlin?[/quote]

A season. What's your point? That Childress imparted some kind of wisdom onto Tomlin that made him good? You want them to be so good they're already gone?[/quote]
What was yours about Fraizer having 2 whole years? At least Childress knew 1 good DC coach.[/quote]

I'm no football genius but I went to training camp when Tomlin just came to the Vikes as the defensive coordinator and I could tell then that he was special. Those other two guys you are talking about have never impressed me as head coaches. I was sickened when Tomlin left and Chili stayed. And I'm sickened that Frazier keeps playing a QB who I never want to see again in purple.

I wouldn't just bench Ponder for Webb. I'd bench him for Webb's closest male relative. That's right -- I'll take pot luck from an athletic family over Ponder. At least they'll know not to bother to throw the ball so that after AD gets into the red zone, we can come up with field goals instead of interceptions.

[Mercy Percy]

You're right. Frazier has had two whole seasons with the same coaches, plenty of time for those guys to establish themselves, take other jobs and achieve greatness.

How long did Childress have Tomlin?[/quote]

A season. What's your point? That Childress imparted some kind of wisdom onto Tomlin that made him good? You want them to be so good they're already gone?[/quote]
What was yours about Fraizer having 2 whole years? At least Childress knew 1 good DC coach.[/quote]

and Allan Williams is a horrible DC ?! The guy has turned around our defense our safties look serviceable and our corners arent playing bad at all!

[PurpleKoolaid]

First off the jury is out on Williams. What makes you think hes any good?

My point was Childress picked Fraizer. Who wasnt that good of a DC. But is a horrible HC. Thats what this thread is about. People bring up numbers but dont want to look at them. Its isnt who do you hate more, Childress or Fraizer.

[VikingLord]

All I see different between Frazier and Childress is likeability and ego. Frazier is more likeable and appears to have his ego in check. He's far more humble, at least in front of the cameras.

Beyond that, I don't see a lot of difference in terms of strategy and approach. Frazier, when he had more say in personnel, made some Chilly-sized blunders right out of the gate with Ayodele and McNabb. The reach for Ponder in the draft was right up there with anything Childress could have done in that draft. His insistence on emphasizing running and stopping the run is right out of the Childress School. Honestly, not a lot of substantive difference between the two in terms of how a football team is designed and executed, at least from where I sit.

[PurpleJarl]

This is borderline pathetic. You are #### because a coach who has doubled the win total from last year and helped to draft a series of players who apart from the QB have all been amazing picks has failed to make it to the playoffs in a "rebuilding year" as many of you called it with a QB whom they cant really replace at the moment. What are they going to do, ask for an early draft? dress up someone as ponder and have them play? Just enjoy the fact that our staff helped get us to 6 wins and possibly 7-8 in a year we all would have thought of 5 as a big step forward. Get off your pity trains because I enjoy coming to this forum to read informed thoughtful posts about football, not everyones "WOE IS ME" thread regarding how ponder, fraizer, and spielmen, screwed you out of your life of happiness by not personally clearing every decision with you.

We have a stadium deal. We have Adrian Peterson, We have a slowly growing core of young talent with character, All we need is a QB and to this point this NEW staff has shown a willingness to pull the trigger when they have to and I for one have been happy with every decision apart from Ponder which I still can completely understand.

End Rant

Slainte.

[Demi]

Anyone could have doubled the win total. he's the one that coached that 3 win team to double in the first place. And got a piece of trash schedule to double his win total with as a reward.

That said I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as Childress. As bad as McNabb was, at least he tried to bring in a veteran, instead of starting Ponder. The draft is on Spielman though. I'm not giving him any credit/blame for most of it. I doubt he has close to/more input than Spielman. Especially on the Ponder pick which every source says was directly on Spielman. I'm sure as a defensive coordinator he had a lot more input on defenses.

he also doesn't make the terrible game day decisions childress did ALL THE TIME. Horrible challenges, timeouts, icing his own kicker, 12 men repeatedly. Offense looking completely lost.

[Just Me]

All I see different between Frazier and Childress is likeability and ego. Frazier is more likeable and appears to have his ego in check. He's far more humble, at least in front of the cameras.

Beyond that, I don't see a lot of difference in terms of strategy and approach. Frazier, when he had more say in personnel, made some Chilly-sized blunders right out of the gate with Ayodele and McNabb. The reach for Ponder in the draft was right up there with anything Childress could have done in that draft. His insistence on emphasizing running and stopping the run is right out of the Childress School. Honestly, not a lot of substantive difference between the two in terms of how a football team is designed and executed, at least from where I sit.

I partially disagree and here's why: (not about the design/execution philosophy- I think you are correct on that, but that's not, just by default, "bad" per se)

1) Jackson was a reach when there didn't have to be one (Childress was at least partially responsible for Culpepper leaving).
2) Nobody "hits" 100% on personnel decisions
3) Frazier has managed to KEEP our premiere players (so far) whereas Chili had even Winfield upset at one point
4) Coaching is as much about motivating/handling people as it is about Xs and Os. In fact, I can teach X's and O's if you have poor people skills, I'm not sure that is as easily corrected.
5) I've never seen Frazier punt with less than 2 minutes left in the game while behind with no time outs left
6) I've never seen a 12 man on the field penalty AFTER a time out has been called

I'm not here to argue Frazier is the next Vince Lombardi, I'm just arguing that he's better than Childress. C'mon, how hard can that level of performance be to attain, anyway?

[Just Me]

Hmm I did research this, unless he really lowered it in Seatle it was 44.5%. Anyway they both suck, both were a reach. At least Tjoke wasnt a 12th overall pick. This team simply doesnt know QBs.

The source for my conclusions are posted above. I'm not saying my source is correct, but please post the contradicting source if you remember for comparison. I'm going by what I was able to find. Ponder was a reach because he had to be. We didn't have a QB. We saw how well the "aging veteran" strategy had been working and nearly the entire fanbase was clamoring for the Vikings to draft a QB. The Vikings did that. Take Luck and RG3 out of the picture because we weren't going to get them anyway. Yes, in hinddight, we could have gotton Wilson, but I didn't see one post during the draft about how we screwed up by not taking him. The point is: no one expected him (Wilson) to play at that level. If the Vikings had the ability to see now what we see, I'm sure they'd have picked Wilson (or others) too.

Can't argue they both stink...

[Mothman]

His insistence on emphasizing running and stopping the run is right out of the Childress School.

Why are you still beating this drum?

The advantages of giving the ball to Peterson should be beyond obvious at this point in the season. The Vikes inability to sufficiently capitalize on his production should tell you all you need to know about their personnel and why they don't emphasize the pass over the run. In terms of offensive philosophy, Frazier is simply emphasizing strength over weakness. If he put the proverbial cart before the horse, reduced Peterson's role and placed a heavier emphasis on the pass, that would be the very definition of bad coaching because, as you essentially point out every week when criticizing Ponder, he doesn't have the QB to make that strategy work. Frankly, he doesn't have the receivers to make it work either. Do you really think, with their current personnel, the Vikes should have a "pass first" philosophy?

As for stopping the run... just take a look at what's happened to the Vikes this season when they failed to do that. It hasn't been pretty. When a team can run the ball effectively enough against a defense, that defense is in big trouble (unless, of course, the running team has a passing game as pathetic as the Vikes passing game!).

Finally, look at the obvious effort to build up both the passing offense and passing defense and at least try to grasp why Frazier has started out his head coaching career emphasizing areas where the Vikes are stronger over areas that needed the most work. There's a relationship there between philosophy and necessity and it's easy to see. It's also easy to see which areas the Vikes are attempting to improve. Their first 2 picks in the 2011 draft: QB and a pass-catching TE. Their first seven picks in the 2012 draft: an LT, a safety, a CB, a WR, a TE, another DB and another WR. All of those choices indicate an effort to improve the pass offense and pass defense. They aren't all working out but philosophically, those aren't the choices of a team that doesn't consider passing and stopping the pass very, very important.

[purplehaze]

The other thing I dislike about Frazier is his total lack of emotion. I cannot think of another coach who is as totally lifeless on the sidelines. Does this guy have green blood?

[chicagopurple]

What a sad state our team is in that we are down to Aweful questins like this thread! Its Dumb and Dumber.....

The Vikes haven't had a good coach since Bud Grant......

The owners have put some really great talent on the field but neglected to have anyone with a sharp mind to USE THEM.....Moss, CUlpepper, Favre, AP AP AP AP, Robt Smith, Cris FRIGGIN CARTER, etc etc and its all been wasted by under-qualified coaches.....

I really respect Mr Wilf for putting scary amounts of his cash on the field for us but, jeeeezus, spend a small amount of it on a REAAL coach who has been proven a winner, not some bargain-basement experiment like Leslie (the name says it all) Frasier.....

[purplehaze]

What a sad state our team is in that we are down to Aweful questins like this thread! Its Dumb and Dumber.....

The Vikes haven't had a good coach since Bud Grant......

The owners have put some really great talent on the field but neglected to have anyone with a sharp mind to USE THEM.....Moss, CUlpepper, Favre, AP AP AP AP, Robt Smith, Cris FRIGGIN CARTER, etc etc and its all been wasted by under-qualified coaches.....

I really respect Mr Wilf for putting scary amounts of his cash on the field for us but, jeeeezus, spend a small amount of it on a REAAL coach who has been proven a winner, not some bargain-basement experiment like Leslie (the name says it all) Frasier.....