With the first round pick the Vikings take

[S197]

It's always going to be something. Last year we had no Safety or O-line. Now it's going to be WR and QB. At some point, we need to look beyond the players. This is a top down problem and until Spielman and Frazier are removed, this will be an endless circle. Just look at some of the players this board has wanted over the past few years, guys like Brady Quinn, Jimmy Clausen, Colt McCoy, Ryan Mallett, etc. We wouldn't have been any better off with any of them.

Yes this team needs an infusion of talent but the coaching staff also needs to be able to better evaluate talent, improve players, and make due with second and third tier guys because in the NFL you don't get to field 22 pro bowlers like an SEC team.

Why is Stephen Burton not only on the team but dressed and ahead of Wright pre-Harvin injury? Why, in WEEK 12, can we still not figure out if we want to play Fusco or Schwartz? Or Raymond or Sanford? Why do we continually run 5 yard routes on 3rd and 8?

Sure we could use a guy like Keean Allen, Terrance Williams, Robert Woods, etc. but it will be the same song and dance until the management structure gets figured out.

[Texas Vike]

Thing is, the draft is really for 3-4 years down the road. Pretty rare to snag a legit starter even in the 1st round of most drafts. Drop down in the 1st round and it gets even more unlikely to find that impact guy.

Even if the Vikes don't win another game they're going to drafting no higher than 5th or 6th (probably closer to 10th), and if there is a bonafide impact player at WR in the draft he'll already be off the board by then.

Better to go BPA with the 1st pick and look for help at WR in FA. Might have to overspend this time around, but FA usually has one or two legit impact guys at WR each year.

I disagree with the underlined part above. We definitely should not reach, but where we'll be picking we can very likely have a shot at the top WR prospect.

I think we have to draft a QB in rd. 2 or 3. Ponder will make a decent back up; too bad we spent 12th overall pick on that position.

[PurpleKoolaid]

It's always going to be something. Last year we had no Safety or O-line. Now it's going to be WR and QB. At some point, we need to look beyond the players. This is a top down problem and until Spielman and Frazier are removed, this will be an endless circle. Just look at some of the players this board has wanted over the past few years, guys like Brady Quinn, Jimmy Clausen, Colt McCoy, Ryan Mallett, etc. We wouldn't have been any better off with any of them.

Yes this team needs an infusion of talent but the coaching staff also needs to be able to better evaluate talent, improve players, and make due with second and third tier guys because in the NFL you don't get to field 22 pro bowlers like an SEC team.

Why is Stephen Burton not only on the team but dressed and ahead of Wright pre-Harvin injury? Why, in WEEK 12, can we still not figure out if we want to play Fusco or Schwartz? Or Raymond or Sanford? Why do we continually run 5 yard routes on 3rd and 8?

Sure we could use a guy like Keean Allen, Terrance Williams, Robert Woods, etc. but it will be the same song and dance until the management structure gets figured out.

I agree with most, but not on Mallett. We would have gotten him in the second at the earlies, and he is a pocket passer, not a smart athletic type. But you are pretty much spot on. But theres no way any of the higher up stuff changes, at least for 2 years when the Wilfs finally let Spielman go.

[radar55]

Thing is, the draft is really for 3-4 years down the road. Pretty rare to snag a legit starter even in the 1st round of most drafts. Drop down in the 1st round and it gets even more unlikely to find that impact guy.

Even if the Vikes don't win another game they're going to drafting no higher than 5th or 6th (probably closer to 10th), and if there is a bonafide impact player at WR in the draft he'll already be off the board by then.

Better to go BPA with the 1st pick and look for help at WR in FA. Might have to overspend this time around, but FA usually has one or two legit impact guys at WR each year.

Unless they open the pocket book and go after a true KNOWN tier #1 quality WR (depending on who might be available) I would advocate that they stay away from free agency all together. The past practice of overpaying for tier 2 and tier 3 W/R's and T/E's in FA has to stop

We dont need another B.Berrian or J. Simpson and we sure as hell dont need another Shianko or Carlson.

As for the draft, if the player they want is gone when their turn comes up then trade down for additional picks and continue the rebuilding process thru the draft.

[Texas Vike]

Unless they open the pocket book and go after a true KNOWN tier #1 quality WR (depending on who might be available) I would advocate that they stay away from free agency all together. The past practice of overpaying for tier 2 and tier 3 W/R's and T/E's in FA has to stop

We dont need another B.Berrian or J. Simpson and we sure as hell dont need another Shianko or Carlson.

As for the draft, if the player they want is gone when their turn comes up then trade down for additional picks and continue the rebuilding process thru the draft.

Solid post through and through.

One point to add: we have so many huge needs that we don't really need to trade down. WR, DT, LB, CB, RT, LG, RG, QB, ... we drafted well this year and that gives me a fair amount of confidence that we can do it again.

[mondry]

It's always going to be something. Last year we had no Safety or O-line. Now it's going to be WR and QB. At some point, we need to look beyond the players. This is a top down problem and until Spielman and Frazier are removed, this will be an endless circle. Just look at some of the players this board has wanted over the past few years, guys like Brady Quinn, Jimmy Clausen, Colt McCoy, Ryan Mallett, etc. We wouldn't have been any better off with any of them.

Yes this team needs an infusion of talent but the coaching staff also needs to be able to better evaluate talent, improve players, and make due with second and third tier guys because in the NFL you don't get to field 22 pro bowlers like an SEC team.

Why is Stephen Burton not only on the team but dressed and ahead of Wright pre-Harvin injury? Why, in WEEK 12, can we still not figure out if we want to play Fusco or Schwartz? Or Raymond or Sanford? Why do we continually run 5 yard routes on 3rd and 8?

Sure we could use a guy like Keean Allen, Terrance Williams, Robert Woods, etc. but it will be the same song and dance until the management structure gets figured out.

I'm not really seeing the blame for spielman. He has drafted some quality players and guys who have made an immediate impact, enough to even call the draft a success already in my eyes. Frazier was not his signing and neither was Musgrave so it's hard to fault him for that either. That leaves FA signings and the draft, and as already stated I think he's done well in the draft. Fa hasn't been great but with the philosophy of not overspending and building through the draft I don't think signing guys like Carlson as that big of a deal. Of the QB's like Ponder, gabbert, locker, etc they all look like busts to me but I'd rather have Ponder out of that bunch... Not really his fault if every QB taken that year doesn't pan out.

Frazier and Musgrave though I tend to agree with what has been said. It's just not acceptable to be that bad on 3rd down, on both sides of the ball. My disgust for Musgrave has been well documented but maybe some of that should go to frazier as well.

On the other hand, playing devils advocate. This was a 3 win team that's already doubled it's total from last year with the potential to get a couple more. Perhaps what is wrong is just our expectations and perspective of the team. Most people predicted 6 wins or less so to already be at that total means something has to have gone right. Personally I think it's because spielman has given this team some good young talent but it's gonna take more time and another good draft. I wont fault him for taking Ponder as his QB as long as he doesn't give him 4 or more years to try and prove it like Mark Sanchez.

[Lash Man]

It's always going to be something. Last year we had no Safety or O-line. Now it's going to be WR and QB. At some point, we need to look beyond the players. This is a top down problem and until Spielman and Frazier are removed, this will be an endless circle. Just look at some of the players this board has wanted over the past few years, guys like Brady Quinn, Jimmy Clausen, Colt McCoy, Ryan Mallett, etc. We wouldn't have been any better off with any of them.

Yes this team needs an infusion of talent but the coaching staff also needs to be able to better evaluate talent, improve players, and make due with second and third tier guys because in the NFL you don't get to field 22 pro bowlers like an SEC team.

Why is Stephen Burton not only on the team but dressed and ahead of Wright pre-Harvin injury? Why, in WEEK 12, can we still not figure out if we want to play Fusco or Schwartz? Or Raymond or Sanford? Why do we continually run 5 yard routes on 3rd and 8?

Sure we could use a guy like Keean Allen, Terrance Williams, Robert Woods, etc. but it will be the same song and dance until the management structure gets figured out.

I agree 100% with you it doesn't matter the talent if you have coaches that have no clue how to use it .

[S197]

I'm not really seeing the blame for spielman. He has drafted some quality players and guys who have made an immediate impact, enough to even call the draft a success already in my eyes. Frazier was not his signing and neither was Musgrave so it's hard to fault him for that either. That leaves FA signings and the draft, and as already stated I think he's done well in the draft. Fa hasn't been great but with the philosophy of not overspending and building through the draft I don't think signing guys like Carlson as that big of a deal. Of the QB's like Ponder, gabbert, locker, etc they all look like busts to me but I'd rather have Ponder out of that bunch... Not really his fault if every QB taken that year doesn't pan out.

Frazier and Musgrave though I tend to agree with what has been said. It's just not acceptable to be that bad on 3rd down, on both sides of the ball. My disgust for Musgrave has been well documented but maybe some of that should go to frazier as well.

On the other hand, playing devils advocate. This was a 3 win team that's already doubled it's total from last year with the potential to get a couple more. Perhaps what is wrong is just our expectations and perspective of the team. Most people predicted 6 wins or less so to already be at that total means something has to have gone right. Personally I think it's because spielman has given this team some good young talent but it's gonna take more time and another good draft. I wont fault him for taking Ponder as his QB as long as he doesn't give him 4 or more years to try and prove it like Mark Sanchez.

I partially agree on Spielman since he has hit some homers in AD and Harvin (he should probably get credit for the JA trade too). But I think as personnel director you make your money in the mid/late rounds. To his credit he has done well in mid (4th-5th) rounds with guys like Griffen, Robison, Sullivan (and maybe Wright, too early to say). But I think some of his calls were questionable like the trade-up for Gerhart and his track record of failed defensive backs is quite long. He seems to do better in the draft than in free agency, there have been quite a number of big money FA bust signings (Madieu Williams, Berrian, Carlson, etc.)

Perhaps he's learning from his mistakes as he did a great job of duping Cleveland and this year's draft does look promising. With Spielman it's a little more difficult to evaluate since he only holds a quasi-GM role now and prior was only director of personnel. Zygi still needs to fix this and relinquish true control to his GM, that includes the ability to hire and fire the coaching staff.

I suppose when I said this is a top down problem, I should have mentioned Zygi first because it all starts with him. It's nice to have an owner that's willing to spend on the team but he needs to stick to his business smarts and realize there are more qualified people to run this team.

[Mothman]

On the other hand, playing devils advocate. This was a 3 win team that's already doubled it's total from last year with the potential to get a couple more. Perhaps what is wrong is just our expectations and perspective of the team.

I think that's a huge part of it.

The Vikes are still clearly in rebuilding mode and they have some significant shortcomings on their roster that are tough to overcome week after week. The coaching isn't perfect, the performances by the players aren't perfect but simply not having enough talent at some positions to match up is a big, big factor in how this team fares each week. Sometimes they're able to compensate enough in one area (big games, by Peterson or Harvin, a standout performance by the DL, etc.) to overcome mediocre or bad performances in another but it's tough to be consistent from week to week that way. The team simply isn't close to complete and that means there will be days like today.

[MrPurplenGold]

I agree with most, but not on Mallett. We would have gotten him in the second at the earlies, and he is a pocket passer, not a smart athletic type. But you are pretty much spot on. But theres no way any of the higher up stuff changes, at least for 2 years when the Wilfs finally let Spielman go.

Mallett went in the 4th round to the Patriots, obviously he's not as good as you think he is. Not only that, he had some serious character issues coming out of college

[saint33]

This year there is a number of #1 WRs due to hit FA. Jennings, Wallace, and bowe come to mind immediately

[S197]

I think that's a huge part of it.

The Vikes are still clearly in rebuilding mode and they have some significant shortcomings on their roster that are tough to overcome week after week. The coaching isn't perfect, the performances by the players aren't perfect but simply not having enough talent at some positions to match up is a big, big factor in how this team fares each week. Sometimes they're able to compensate enough in one area (big games, by Peterson or Harvin, a standout performance by the DL, etc.) to overcome mediocre or bad performances in another but it's tough to be consistent from week to week that way. The team simply isn't close to complete and that means there will be days like today.

What I found most disappointing was this performance came on the heels of a bye week in addition to the Bears having a short week. Granted, the loss of Harvin was huge but to come out that flat when the team had so long to prepare was disheartening.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Mallett went in the 4th round to the Patriots, obviously he's not as good as you think he is. Not only that, he had some serious character issues coming out of college

He had 1 issue supposedly coke. Who the heck hasnt tried it in college? I loved it. Havent touched it or even weed since. You know PH had character issues too right? Want me to name a few hundred others? What round was Brady picked in?

[saint33]

[quote="PurpleKoolaid]

He had 1 issue supposedly coke. Who the heck hasnt tried it in college? I loved it. Havent touched it or even weed since. You know PH had character issues too right? Want me to name a few hundred others? What round was Brady picked in?[/quote]

His issues wet more than the drugs, he was known also a kid with questionable maturity and leadership skills. Similar to jimmy clausen. In fact there were many parellels between the two players coming out. Not to mention mallet came from a very qb friendly system

[Mothman]

What I found most disappointing was this performance came on the heels of a bye week in addition to the Bears having a short week. Granted, the loss of Harvin was huge but to come out that flat when the team had so long to prepare was disheartening.

Absolutely and I was disappointed from the first snap, when Musgrave called a play that used an empty backfield formation. I hate those formations because they just tell the defense to pin their ears back and get after the QB. Why Musgrave would open a game with that play in Chicago is beyond me, especially with AD on the rsoter. I wasn't even a little surprised that it ended in a sack, sabotaging the Vikes first possession from the start.