Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

[dead_poet]

From Zulgad's notebook:

Quarterback Christian Ponder said Wednesday that he does not feel he is pressing, but he knows the Minnesota Vikings' passing offense must start executing better beginning with Sunday's game in Seattle.

"Everything is fixable, so we just have to fix it," said Ponder, who has thrown seven interceptions in the past four games after having none in the first four. "For us to go into a place like Seattle, it's going to be important to start early and start fast. To go a couple three and outs at the beginning of the game isn't going to be good. I think every game that Seattle's played in they've been the first offense to score."

Ponder struggled in the Vikings' 21-14 victory over Arizona on Oct. 21, throwing for only 58 yards with one touchdown and two interceptions. The following Thursday, he again looked shaky in a 36-17 loss against Tampa Bay.

The Cardinals are ranked fourth against the pass and the Buccaneers are 31st. Seattle is fifth in overall defense in the NFL and 13th against the pass.

Ponder said there isn't just one thing that ails the Vikings' passing game, and added that he needs to continue to put his focus on stepping up in the pocket and not flushing left or right.

"It goes back to execution," he said. "We have to do a better job. We've been seeing a lot of pressure. I've got to do a better job of getting the ball out of my hands. I think teams have realized that. My biggest thing is I can't take a negative play.

"We would rather throw the ball away and get it out of my hands than take a sack on first down or throw an interception. We're always looking to have positive plays and limit the negative plays. We're going to get things clicking. We faced two great defenses the past two weeks and obviously we're going to face another one this week. But we're going to keep improving."

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Note ... ment103112

[S197]

I think fundamentals plays a part but I also think the Vikings consistently make it easier on the defense with all of the bunch sets that they run. It allows the defense to stack the box, closing off AD, and also makes it a lot easier to disguise blitzes.



This is a pretty typical Vikings set, with Harvin coming in motion out of a two TE set. 9 defenders in the box, and with Harvin coming in motion we basically have the entire offense huddled around the hash marks.

Another example:



Here the Vikings are in an I Formation with the defense showing 8 in the box.



And again. More receivers but all bunched at the line resulting in 8 in the box:



It's basically a numbers game, I don't see any glaring fundamental issues on this play (maybe if Loadholt hits his block at the second level and AD runs right but you get the gist):



Now the interesting thing to me is all of these were taken from games that the Vikings won. So how can it be a bad thing? Well I think the problem is defenses have figured out a way to counteract these sets. I realize the Vikings lack talent at the receiver position but really some creativity needs to be utilized. Not only are the routes limited vertically but our formations are all limited horizontally.

Ponder, the line, the receivers, clearly there's work to be done at all those positions but I also feel at times the coaching staff is putting the offense in positions where it's difficult to have a play develop. I'm not calling for a spread offense but I think there's more going on here than just fundamentals. The defense needs to be kept honest and I think we're starting to see a progression where the defenses are no longer taking our offense seriously. They know what sets we're going to use and what plays are coming out of them. It's time to stretch the field in BOTH directions, not just go routes.

[Eli]

Spreading the formation is basically useless when the defense knows you're not going to seriously run a route deeper than ten yards. They cover the wideouts with man to man coverage, keep one deep safety, and everyone else is in the box. It's a pretty damned simple offense to defend, no matter what formation the Vikings use. How close together the receivers are lined up is incidental. An offense with better TEs might tear that kind of defense apart, but the Vikings don't have them.

[Mothman]

Now the interesting thing to me is all of these were taken from games that the Vikings won. So how can it be a bad thing? Well I think the problem is defenses have figured out a way to counteract these sets. I realize the Vikings lack talent at the receiver position but really some creativity needs to be utilized. Not only are the routes limited vertically but our formations are all limited horizontally.

They run quite a few wider sets too so they aren't all that limited but I see your point. It's easier for the defense to stack 8 men in the box against tight formations but the extra personnel inside should make it easier to block from those formations too. The Vikings run very effectively out of those formations. For example, the back-to-back 11 yard runs Peterson had to start the Vikings 4th possession against TB both came out of tight formations and so did his 64 yard TD run. That one is a great example because it shows how the defense is more vulnerable on the edge against a set like that.

Thanks for grabbing those shots and putting that post together. I definitely agree with the need for some more creativity.

It's basically a numbers game, I don't see any glaring fundamental issues on this play (maybe if Loadholt hits his block at the second level and AD runs right but you get the gist):

Loadholt, Felton and Rudolph all try and fail to connect with LBs, who kill the play. I don't know if AD was supposed to follow Felton and if his shift to the left pulled the LBs away from their respective blockers or if Felton was a decoy and the Vikings were hoping the LBs would follow his lead. I'm guessing it was the former. It's possible that AD improvised and it didn't go well.

Rudolph was forced wide by #90 and couldn't get back inside. Loadholt ran at his man as if he was a statue would just stay on the spot. I don't know what Felton was doing. It almost looked like he was carrying out a fake. It seemed like he had a chance to hit Loadholt's linebacker.

[Mothman]

Okay, I went through the passing plays from the Bucs game again. I've seen these plays so often I'm getting depressed—I need to go back and watch a better offensive performance by the Vikes! Anyway, I re-watched the passing plays, paying particular attention to they mid-to-long range routes they ran and to Ponder. I saw a play where he didn't look to his right at all but it didn't seem to be a common problem.

The Vikes ran seam routes, corner routes, crossing routes (both deep and shallow), slants, screens, etc. There was variety. On some of the short, quick-devloping plays like slants and bubble screens, there aren't really mid-to-deep routes, presumably because the play occurs too fast for them to develop and the receivers who would be running them are blocking as soon as that quick pass is thrown.

What I saw overall confirmed what I said earlier in response to VikingLord: in this game, Ponder did not miss a lot of opportunities down the field ("miss" in the sense that he didn't see them). He had Simpson wide open on a crossing route on the first play of the game and either didn't see him or couldn't make the throw. The defense was in his face quickly and I can't determine if he had time to set, make the throw and take the hit or if he would have just been hit while throwing. It's a close call.

Later in the game, he had Rudolph wide open in the middle but too much inside pressure blew the play up. On a play most probably remember, he reacted well to pressure and threw a nice pass downfield to Harvin in single coverage. Harvin had the ball ripped away from him on the sidelines. Overall, the mid-range routes you saw Ponder connect on were basically the ones that came open.

Tampa played a lot of zone and for the most part, the receivers simply didn't beat it. Some of these guys look very slow to me coming off the line. Jenkins was practically useless until the Bucs went into a soft zone late in the game. Burton wasn't any better.

S197 mentioned the need for more creativity and one of the ways I think they could do that is by using different receivers on some of these routes. For example, I saw seam routes but I didn't see Harvin run one. Running him down the seam from the slot, where he could get a clean release, seems like a good idea to me. He has the speed to be very dangerous on that play.

Unless someone has a special request (about a play of a game), I'll probably watch the passing plays against Arizona next and just work my way backward. I hope this is helpful.

[mansquatch]

Isn't the bubble screen a great play against such a tight defensive alignment? Split out Harvin, but a WR on the edge, have the WR set the pick, and bang, 4-5 yards, more if Harvin makes his guy miss and the WR can stick his block.

You could also line Simpson up alone on the other side. If they give him single man coverage throw the deep post. This would be even nastier if Ponder would pump fake the bubble to Harvin on the other side. It could also be a solid option passing play, if they cheat someone over to Simpson for double coverage, then throw the bubble. If they cheat to Harvin, throw the post. If they cheat to both, audible to a counter or a draw and let AP enjoy running against a 6 man front.

What I really do not understand is why they do not utilize more screen passes, whether to Harvin or AP. Is the OL not athletic enough? I've seen Kalil be 15 yards downfield. So it isn't him. Maybe they need a more athletic guard, that could be an issue?

Random thoughts...

[Mothman]

Isn't the bubble screen a great play against such a tight defensive alignment? Split out Harvin, but a WR on the edge, have the WR set the pick, and bang, 4-5 yards, more if Harvin makes his guy miss and the WR can stick his block.

Yes, and running to the edge can be a great play too. It doesn't necessarily need to be a sweep or a stretch play, an off tackle run will work too. There are advantages and disadvantages to running those tight formations.

What I really do not understand is why they do not utilize more screen passes, whether to Harvin or AP. Is the OL not athletic enough? I've seen Kalil be 15 yards downfield. So it isn't him. Maybe they need a more athletic guard, that could be an issue?

The bubble screen is a screen so they actually run screens all the time. I assume you're talking about screens to a back out of the backfield. They ran one to Peterson against Tampa and Johnson missed a block that would have sprung him. They seem to run a screen or two like that every week, with pretty mixed results.

[losperros]

Yes, and running to the edge can be a great play too. It doesn't necessarily need to be a sweep or a stretch play, an off tackle run will work too. There are advantages and disadvantages to running those tight formations.
The bubble screen is a screen so they actually run screens all the time. I assume you're talking about screens to a back out of the backfield. They ran one to Peterson against Tampa and Johnson missed a block that would have sprung him. They seem to run a screen or two like that every week, with pretty mixed results.

Maybe mixing things up with the bubble screens might help too. A bubble screen to a burner like Simpson, instead of always to Harvin, might not be a bad idea. And my vote is yes, the OL still needs more overall athleticism. They're oftentimes too slow off the snap.

Anyway, back to the first point, I agree with everyone that wants to see as much creativity as possible in the offensive formations.

[losperros]

An offense with better TEs might tear that kind of defense apart, but the Vikings don't have them.

Interesting observation. You know, Rudolph and Ellison aren't elite TEs (Rudolph might be one day) but aren't they good enough to contribute now in that way? I've seen Rudolph make some good catches. Seems to me that Rudolph isn't being used as a receiver as often lately. Maybe he's not getting open? Or maybe he's blocking most of the time.

IIRC, weren't the Vikings going to try to field 2 TE sets to also help the passing game? That's what I thought was being said before the season began.

[Mothman]

Interesting observation. You know, Rudolph and Ellison aren't elite TEs (Rudolph might be one day) but aren't they good enough to contribute now in that way? I've seen Rudolph make some good catches. Seems to me that Rudolph isn't being used as a receiver as often lately. Maybe he's not getting open? Or maybe he's blocking most of the time.

Tampa Bay did a great job covering him and he wasn't able to get open very often. I can't remember if it was the same situation against Arizona or if he did a lot of blocking against the Cardinals. I definitely think defenses are paying a little more attention to him than they did earlier in the season.

IIRC, weren't the Vikings going to try to field 2 TE sets to also help the passing game? That's what I thought was being said before the season began.

They have but not as many as people were anticipating. I don't know if that's just because Carlson was ineffective or if there's some other reason.

The more I watch this offense, the more I think the biggest missing ingredient is talent on the outside. It's not a panacea for everything that ails them but man, the Vikings could use another receiver that creates serious matchup problems.

[losperros]

Tampa Bay did a great job covering him and he wasn't able to get open very often. I can't remember if it was the same situation against Arizona or if he did a lot of blocking against the Cardinals. I definitely think defenses are paying a little more attention to him than they did earlier in the season.

I believe they are paying attention to Rudolph. By the time preseason was over everybody and their brother probably knew the Vikings intended to lean on Rudolph. Ponder supposedly had good timing with him, plus Simpson was suspended for three games and it's not like the other receivers (aside from Harvin) were striking any fear into the hearts of defenses.

They have but not as many as people were anticipating. I don't know if that's just because Carlson was ineffective or if there's some other reason.

The more I watch this offense, the more I think the biggest missing ingredient is talent on the outside. It's not a panacea for everything that ails them but man, the Vikings could use another receiver that creates serious matchup problems.

As you know, I definitely believe some serious upgrading needs to be done among the WRs. I think Harvin is a stud and I'm not convinced that Simpson can't be a force. But the rest of the WR corps? Some are average and others below average. The addition of a *good* big possession WR would be great. I'd be thrilled if the Vikings grabbed another WR from the free agency and drafted one as well next year.

[mansquatch]

Until Simpson can find consistency he is at best a #2. He has the tools, he just needs to bring it all together.

I think Rudolph has reached the stage of his career where he needs ot deal with what DC are going to do to him and find a way to still make plays. Either that or someone else needs to step up if he is taking up that much attenion, then someone else should be open. This to me is the real issue. They can't double everyone, so someone has to be open. The problem seems to be that they are not all clicking at the same time.

Consistency...

[Mothman]

Until Simpson can find consistency he is at best a #2. He has the tools, he just needs to bring it all together.

I think Rudolph has reached the stage of his career where he needs ot deal with what DC are going to do to him and find a way to still make plays. Either that or someone else needs to step up if he is taking up that much attenion, then someone else should be open. This to me is the real issue. They can't double everyone, so someone has to be open. The problem seems to be that they are not all clicking at the same time.

Consistency...

I'm not sure how much extra attention Rudolph is getting from week to week but Tampa was putting a safety on him and that kept him covered most of the time. One of his receptions came against a linebacker, who he was able to beat fairly easily.

You're right, defenses can't double everyone but that doesn't mean someone has to be open. That's one of the bigger problems the Vikings have right now and Mike Mayock brought it up during the game. I'm pretty sure Tim Ryan and Billick brought it up earlier this season too. When Harvin is covered, someone else has to step up and beat single coverage. The Vikes are looking for Simpson to do that and he's done it a few times. If he can start doing it more consistently, maybe that will help open things up.

Maybe they need to come up with some plays specifically designed to free Rudolph too. I don't know... I don't have answers.

[VikingLord]

What I saw overall confirmed what I said earlier in response to VikingLord: in this game, Ponder did not miss a lot of opportunities down the field ("miss" in the sense that he didn't see them).

I just find that hard to believe. You have one of the league's worst pass defenses, they're forced to stack the box to stop AD so you know you're going to get single coverage and/or broader zones, you're at home, and the Vikings took full advantage of that? I mean, the film doesn't lie, but that's hard for me to believe they could be *that* pathetic.

I'll have to take your word for it, but alarm bells should be going off at Winter Park if this is the case.

[VikingLord]

It's basically a numbers game, I don't see any glaring fundamental issues on this play (maybe if Loadholt hits his block at the second level and AD runs right but you get the gist):

I see a fundamental issue - absolutely no defensive lineman or linebacker pays any attention to Ponder. They are *not* concerned about him at all.