Mothman wrote:
Yes, and the chances of success throwing the ball might have been greater depending on the defensive adjustment. I don't think anybody is saying anything as simplistic as "just run Peterson". As you wrote, the Vikes need a balanced offense. However, he had 17 yards on his first 3 carries alone and that was over 3 possessions. He didn't get the ball two plays in a row until the 4th possession, when he ripped off 22 yards on those two carries. The point people are attempting to get across is that if the defense was struggling to stop something early, the Vikes should have made them stop it instead of doing them the favor of repeatedly getting away from it.
Exactly! Well said. Heck, I've been trying to articulate that notion in about 12 posts in different threads and didn't do that well.
I also very much agree with both of you that we need a balanced offense and there were bigger problems, such as lack of execution, than the playcalling. OTOH, there were some things about Musgrave's plays that mystified me at times. Several of the posts on the board have shed some light on what I found puzzling.
Mothman wrote:Again, I don't think anybody is suggesting they be ignored in the game plan. They're just saying that when the star RB is playing great, giving him the ball more than 15 or 16 times is a good idea. That's not exactly a revolutionary idea.
I agree there, too. Plus I believe the receivers, particularly Simpson but also Harvin in some cases, can be used in a greater variety of ways than they were against the Bucs. I'm hoping we'll see some of that in future games.
I remember times in the past they'd run him 20-30 against stacked boxes and endless blitzes. And people would savage the coaching staff for not trying to throw them out of the blitzes/safety at the lien of scrimmage.
And the reason is the same as it was then, zero respect for the incompetent quarterbacking means defense are going to focus on the line of scrimmage and until we get a quarterback capable of making plays even half of the time, it's going to stay the exact same...if not get worse.
Tampa Bay had one of the worst pass defenses in the league coming into this game, talking heads repeated it endlessly. And we couldn't move the ball through the air on them. The answer isn't another pro bowl player or three. It's one pro bowl player. And we all know where the lack of talent is at.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:I was talking about early in the game. The first three drives. Every time AP carried the ball, we had good results. Every time Ponder dropped back to pass, it was pretty much a disaster. As is the case with just about every team these days, the first plays of the game are scripted. I think that's the crux of my frustration. Passing the ball wasn't working. Running the ball was. Yet we passed, apparently because that was what the script called for. Before you knew it, we were down 10.
Ah the scripting. That makes sense. I hope Ponder improves and shows promise like he did in the second quarter. If he is failing like recent weeks, then I agree the script should have a heavier dose of AD. I am dreaming of an offense where AD stars, Ponder shows consistency, and the team does not sputter offensively like they did so much early Thursday.
Well, it appears that Ponder and little to nothing to do with the struggles in the first half. I watched the game and really had come to that conclusion before your research Jim. It's nice to know my observations were not in error here. We were having some nice offensive moments that were snuffed out by turnovers that Ponder had nothing to do with and some poor play by people whos name is NOT Ponder. Although he made a couple of mistakes they were not out of the ordinary for typical QB play in this league. The football I saw today had some really good QBs making some pretty bad throws and decisions. So, I don't fault Ponder at all as he seems to be making mistakes that are not unusual.
Now I am anxious for the second half as I became to demoralized to be really able to pay attention. Watching the Bucs run all over our defense was sickening. So, I am looking forward to what comes next, to help me figure out what was going wrong. Thanks Jim!
Delaqure wrote:Well, it appears that Ponder and little to nothing to do with the struggles in the first half. I watched the game and really had come to that conclusion before your research Jim. It's nice to know my observations were not in error here. We were having some nice offensive moments that were snuffed out by turnovers that Ponder had nothing to do with and some poor play by people whos name is NOT Ponder. Although he made a couple of mistakes they were not out of the ordinary for typical QB play in this league. The football I saw today had some really good QBs making some pretty bad throws and decisions. So, I don't fault Ponder at all as he seems to be making mistakes that are not unusual.
Now I am anxious for the second half as I became to demoralized to be really able to pay attention. Watching the Bucs run all over our defense was sickening. So, I am looking forward to what comes next, to help me figure out what was going wrong. Thanks Jim!
You're welcome. I'm glad you found this useful! I'm looking forward to going through the second half.
Mothman wrote:They're just saying that when the star RB is playing great, giving him the ball more than 15 or 16 times is a good idea. That's not exactly a revolutionary idea.
Unless of course, said star is coming off major reconstruction of critical-to-the-NFL body parts. I think it's a wise idea to limit him at this point, others may not.
psjordan wrote:
Unless of course, said star is coming off major reconstruction of critical-to-the-NFL body parts. I think it's a wise idea to limit him at this point, others may not.
That's definitely a legitimate consideration but I doubt that's why he didn't get the ball more against TB. The Vikings have been willing to give him the ball more than 16 times in other games this season and he's reportedly feeling better now than he did then. I don't think he should be getting 30+ touches a game but he seems able to handle 20-25 just fine. Prior to last Thursday's game, he had 20+ touches in 5 straight games.
Mothman wrote: Prior to last Thursday's game, he had 20+ touches in 5 straight games.
And maybe he was starting to feel the workload? Either way, I always subscribe to the theory that the coaches and training staff know more about AD's condition than I do. YMMV.
Again, as much as we'd like to think the coaches are idiots and do not recognize the fact that AD is "tearing it up" against an opponent, I am pretty sure the coaches do notice when AD is averaging 5.8 ypc during a game. Pretty sure. Am also pretty sure they would rather win games than not.
9th possession
1-10-MIN 20 Handoff to Peterson for no gain. It looked like he wanted to go up the middle between Sullivan and the RG but there was nothing there.
2-10-MIN 20 Swing pass to Peterson in the right flat. Harvin's out in front of him and splits two defenders, letting both run right past him to stop peterson for a loss. It looked like he had no clue the ball would go to Peterson.Pressure is coming from the inside so it's possible that Ponder made a quick decision to throw to Peterson but that AD wasn't the primary receiver on the play. The ball is out of Ponder's hand in about 2 seconds.
3-12-MIN 18 Shotgun. 3 WR set, Rudolph split wide left as a 4th receiver. Ponder drops back, sets and then has to (as Brad Nessler put it) run for his life. he throws it away. The pressure is there in under 3 seconds, coming from the right. The Bucs lined up as if they ere going to blitz from the right but they rushed 4. Sullivan and RG (presumably Fusco) get beat inside. Loadholt gets beat outside. The inside rush is what forces Ponder out of the pocket. There's nobody open he can reasonably throw the ball too.
10th possession
1-10-MIN 36 Ponder under center. I formation backfield. Bucs overload blitz from left. peterson and OL pick it up, although Ponder can't completely step into his throw. He heaves down the left sideline for Simpson, incomplete. The pass went out of bounds. this is the play where Mayock emphasized that Simpson has to give the QB more room along the sideline to make a play. He said the WR needs to be 5-7 yards inside the sideline on that route. Simpson was about 2 yards from the edge.
1-10-MIN 36 Handoff to Peterson. He runs right, breaks a tackle, jukes another defender and is GONE! Schwartz pulled on the play, Felton led into the hole, everyone did their job and the Vikes got a big play they'd desperately needed.
11th possession
1-10-MIN 28 Three WR set. Handoff to Peterson, who runs outside right and loses 2 yards. The whole o-line went right on the play M. Bennett went inside Loadholt as the latter moved outside and then made the tackle.
2-12-MN 26 Empty backfield. Shotgun. Peterson split out wide. Ponder takes the snap and the rush comes quickly but is diverted to both sides. Ponder steps up and decides to run with it. Peterson throws a block to free him for a 6 yard gain. Good choice. Tampa's in zone and there's nothing downfield.
3-6-MN 32 Shotgun. Ponder steps forward and points toward potential blitzed near the line. As he steps back and sets, he looks to his right, Sullivan snaps the ball low and it hits Ponder in the ankle.Ponder just has to dive on the ball.
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That's it for quarter #3. I'm not sure what happened on that last play. It looked like Sullivan snapped the ball before Ponder was ready for it. I haven't seen anything in the media that addresses what, specifically, occurred on the play. Once again, poor blocking and an overall lack of execution killed two out of three drives. The 64 yard TD run was a thing of beauty but other than Ponder's 6 yard scramble, that was literally the only positive play the Vikes had out of 8 plays run in the quarter.
Last edited by Mothman on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
psjordan wrote:
And maybe he was starting to feel the workload? Either way, I always subscribe to the theory that the coaches and training staff know more about AD's condition than I do. YMMV.
I agree that they know more about his condition than we do but there's been nothing to indicate his 16 touches were due to concerns about his condition.
Again, as much as we'd like to think the coaches are idiots and do not recognize the fact that AD is "tearing it up" against an opponent, I am pretty sure the coaches do notice when AD is averaging 5.8 ypc during a game. Pretty sure. Am also pretty sure they would rather win games than not.
I am too but that doesn't mean they always make the best choice. I'm not calling them idiots or saying they didn't recognize that AD was tearing it up. I'm just saying I wish they would have acted on it earlier when they saw that he was tearing it up. Maybe it wouldn't have made any difference... but I would have liked to see them try.
IMO the answer to "what happened to our defense" is Chris Cook broke his arm. Tampa fields 2 quality "big" WR. When Cook went down it created mismatches dues to our poor secondary depth. Now you have Scherels trying to cover Mike Williams. Hopefully they can get it together over a 10 day rest and/or the Bye Week.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
mansquatch wrote:IMO the answer to "what happened to our defense" is Chris Cook broke his arm. Tampa fields 2 quality "big" WR. When Cook went down it created mismatches dues to our poor secondary depth. Now you have Scherels trying to cover Mike Williams. Hopefully they can get it together over a 10 day rest and/or the Bye Week.
I thought it went beyond Cook's injury, although that clearly hurt the defense.
Maybe when I'm done going through all of the offensive plays I'll do the same for the defense. It seems to me that there were a lot of missed tackles, poor angles, etc, taken in the game. Martin had way too much room to run.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:I don't know what it looked like on TV, but live, it was obvious that Adrian was on another level. It honestly didn't matter what Tampa Bay did ... eight in the box, whatever. This was the best Adrian has looked in a couple of years. A number of us in our section were commenting that it was only a matter of time for him to break one, that this was the night. And sure enough, he did.
If my amateur eyes can see it, then Musgrave's professional eyes should have. Their guy (Martin) ran for over 100 yards in the first half. They wore our defense out. That's what we should have done to them. We have the best running back in football.
For me it looked a lot like the offense of TJoke in Petersons rookie year. Box was stacked and he still was ripping off chunks of yards and the QB looked ineffective. I hate to make that comparison, but it is the exact feeling I had. And the playcalling looked just as predictable and then they seemed to out-cute themselves.
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds,the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps.
Elenore Roosevelt. 1945
psjordan wrote:And in the big scheme, "running AD more" is about as simplistic as a "supposed fix" can be.
Could we have run AD more to greater team success? Maybe. Who's to say that TB would not have adjusted to that strategy after 2-3 runs? And our answer would have been to throw the ball.
It's simply never that simple in the NFL.
True, but there is another thought in the NFL: Keep running it (whatever is working) until they show they can stop it.
Something I think gets overlooked sometimes is that when you have a back like Peterson, The running game can be a quick strike offense. A 64 yard run takes as long as a 64 yard pass play and with our offense, each are just as likely to happen
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds,the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps.
Elenore Roosevelt. 1945
Mothman wrote:PART THREE
3RD QUARTER
That's it for quarter #3. I'm not sure what happened on that last play. It looked like Sullivan snapped the ball before Ponder was ready for it. I haven't seen anything in the media that addresses what, specifically, occurred on the play. Once again, poor blocking and an overall lack of execution killed two out of three drives. The 64 yard TD run was a thing of beauty but other than Ponder's 6 yard scramble, that was literally the only positive play the Vikes had out of 8 plays run in the quarter.
Thanks again, Jim. Nice job.
The overall lack of execution really reared its ugly head here, especially in the passing game. It's like the Vikings found ways to make sure the passing plays wouldn't happen. Simpson hugs the sidelines, Ponder is hurried by pass rushers, a bad snap, etc. As we've discussed before, the entire passing game is a malfunctioning machine right now. It's really frustrating to watch this kind of stuff.
