Christian Ponder being held back

[FailedtoOpen]

You work with what you have and it's as simple as that. This team is sliding because the offense is simplistic enough that teams can basically stifle it with only 6 weeks of film (yes I know we are in week 8 but this problem as been persisting for awhile). This team can't execute its own gameplan well enough for it to have success against teams that know how to play against it.

Ponder and Musgrave are being held back by the tools that they have. That isn't excusing them for making, or calling bad plays. It isn't excusing them from not recognizing simple patterns of play. It is stating that you can't throw deep when you have nobody with separation. We don't have an AJ Green in which Ponder has an amazing relationship with. We don't have that Sidney Rice, who wasn't the fastest man in the world but Favre had an amazing connection with him.

What we have is a receiving core that is stronger in the short passing game. For all those who cry about Ponder throwing it short you'll have to deal with it.

[Sinatra]

Ponder's just not a very good quarterback. He's OK, but nothing even remotely special.

[Mothman]

You work with what you have and it's as simple as that. This team is sliding because the offense is simplistic enough that teams can basically stifle it with only 6 weeks of film (yes I know we are in week 8 but this problem as been persisting for awhile). This team can't execute its own gameplan well enough for it to have success against teams that know how to play against it.

Ponder and Musgrave are being held back by the tools that they have. That isn't excusing them for making, or calling bad plays. It isn't excusing them from not recognizing simple patterns of play. It is stating that you can't throw deep when you have nobody with separation. We don't have an AJ Green in which Ponder has an amazing relationship with. We don't have that Sidney Rice, who wasn't the fastest man in the world but Favre had an amazing connection with him.

What we have is a receiving core that is stronger in the short passing game. For all those who cry about Ponder throwing it short you'll have to deal with it.

Well said. All we had to do is look at the opponent last night to see how much value there is in having big, talented receivers on the outside. Ponder needs outside receivers he can repeatedly trust and who reward that trust with big plays. They need outside receivers who demand double coverage enough to pull the 8th man out of the box and who burn single coverage when opponents insist on keeping that extra defender in the box.

Jim

[mansquatch]

There is no way to prove this, but I think part of this is a failure of coaching from a purely motivational/mental standpoint. It feels like they've coached some of his confidence right out of him. I think they've reined him in too much, like there is too much focus on being mistake free. They need to let him spread his wings a bit. I watched yesterday and one of my take aways was that they had coached Ponder to play not to lose vs. playing to win.

Maybe they are doing this because of stuff they see in practice, I don't know. We know he has made big time passes and has the ability to do so. Something is just off.

[LA Viking]

Eh, I think partly, but I also think he isn't to the point where we can fully open up the play book with him. These last few weeks have started to remind me of another QB we had a few years back. Ugh. I think Ponder's big problem is that he isn't seeing the field well. He is locking into his primary target (or his safety option) and throwing it to him or running and throwing it to him even if he is covered. He did a little better last night by throwing it away instead of forcing it, but he still did it. It was also evident that he is not seeing the whole field. I think the game hasn't slowed down for him yet.

I will say that our WRs pretty much suck besides Harvin. Looks like Simpson might be the second coming of Berrian.

[Crax]

Well said. All we had to do is look at the opponent last night to see how much value there is in having big, talented receivers on the outside. Ponder needs outside receivers he can repeatedly trust and who reward that trust with big plays.

Not everyone can have a big, talented receiver on the outside. There's not that many of them.
Once you get past Megatron, Marshall, VJax, and maybe AJ Green there's a drop off on both tall and talented. Roddy White, Reggie Wayne, and Victor Cruz are all listed at 6'0" even and are all in the top 10 for yards. There's quite a few around 6'3", but that seems more average these days and I wouldn't call them big as there's so many of them around that height.

The patriots have 0 big, talented receivers on the outside and seem to be doing pretty good in the passing game. The Bronco's seem to be great as well in the passing game and they don't have those type of superstar receivers either. If you want to argue they do with Demaryius Thomas, I don't think he really fits into the same mold as what you were suggesting. Of course Thomas has put up about the same amount of yards in 5 less games this year compared to last year. Manning vs Tebow might have something to do with it.

[Mothman]

Not everyone can have a big, talented receiver on the outside. There's not that many of them.

Once you get past Megatron, Marshall, VJax, and maybe AJ Green there's a drop off on both tall and talented.

Roddy White, Reggie Wayne, and Victor Cruz are all listed at 6'0" even and are all in the top 10 for yards. There's quite a few around 6'3", but that seems more average these days and I wouldn't call them big as there's so many of them around that height.

6' 3" and up is the range I'm thinking about, which is still bigger than most CBs. They don't have to be that big if they have the kind of ability the players you listed possess. My point is the Vikings don't have enough talent (big or small) on the outside making plays. They need someone out there who is more effective, more dangerous. I don't care if he's 6'1" or 6' 5" as long as he can make big plays and draw double coverage.

[mansquatch]

There is a corrolary to the big #1 WR bit. How many plays did we call yesterday where the WR would have made a difference? You might say all of them, IE somebody would be open when they were not. However, how many plays were there where someone was open and Ponder missed them. How many where the WR ran a poor route? How many where the route broke and Ponder didn't read or vice versa? What about protection?

Someone would have to really deep dive the tape to answer that.

[Mothman]

There is a corrolary to the big #1 WR bit. How many plays did we call yesterday where the WR would have made a difference? You might say all of them, IE somebody would be open when they were not. However, how many plays were there where someone was open and Ponder missed them. How many where the WR ran a poor route? How many where the route broke and Ponder didn't read or vice versa? What about protection?

Someone would have to really deep dive the tape to answer that.

Time permitting, I'd love to do that when the tape is available.

[Crax]

6' 3" and up is the range I'm thinking about, which is still bigger than most CBs. They don't have to be that big if they have the kind of ability the players you listed possess. My point is the Vikings don't have enough talent (big or small) on the outside making plays. They need someone out there who is more effective, more dangerous. I don't care if he's 6'1" or 6' 5" as long as he can make big plays and draw double coverage.

So who is the talented outside WR threat on the patriots that fits that description? They're currently #1 for offense and #5 for passing. I personally believe Harvin is better/more talented than Welker and would be insane on the pats. I also believe Peterson is better than any RB they have. They have some big tight ends(so do we), but they aren't outside threats. Maybe the Pats are the exception, but we saw what Farve did to an offense that struggled with TJack. Rice suddenly looked amazing and Adrian Peterson had two great receiving years.

[PurpleJarl]

Did anyone else notice how close we were to have a GOOD passing attack last night? I can think of two plays of the top of my head. First, side line pass to percy harvin that was broken up on, what appeared to me, and what the announcers echoed was a freak play. But that ball was well place and could have easily have been a game changing reception.

Second the deep pass to simpson that was out of bound. Ponder didnt lead him out of bounds IMO. And the announcer showed on replay that simpson simply lined up too far out and his route took him out of bounds. Again, a potentially game changing play that ponder technically made.

Also, the touch on harvins touchdown throw was nice, better than I have seen any from any vikings QB in a long time, minus farve.

I guess my opinion is. It wasnt a great game from Ponder. But given the how poorly or non existent our other facets of the game were, I am not worried. What I saw was a QB who, in the face of a lot of pressure and very little help didnt rise to the occasion but he didn't completely cause our faliure.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Wearnt quite a few of you saying once Simpson comes back, Ponder would open up (because god knows PH isnt a good downfield WR cause hes too small, like Steve Smith...)? He hasnt opened up. He just cant throw. He wont always get the PI call, like i've said before. Simpson is athletic enough to make some great catches though if Ponder can at least get it close. But he cant even do that.

Teams have figured Musgrave, Ponder PH and AD out. AD is just so good, even with 9 in the box hes going to get his yards. Hopefully he can hold onto the ball better then last night.

Ponder is being held back because Musgrave knows Ponder cant do anything. When Freeman was under pressure alot of times he made a play. Ponder would make a bonehead play. He senses pressure and panics, and then holds onto the ball to long. Its been 2 years now and the same mistakes repeat themselves. Its time to give someone else a chance at QB. Its too bad we got Webb as the backup. Why does MN have such a tough time with yong QBs, then go the route of old QBs, then start the mess all over again.

[PurpleJarl]

Wearnt quite a few of you saying once Simpson comes back, Ponder would open up (because god knows PH isnt a good downfield WR cause hes too small, like Steve Smith...)? He hasnt opened up. He just cant throw. He wont always get the PI call, like i've said before. Simpson is athletic enough to make some great catches though if Ponder can at least get it close. But he cant even do that.

Teams have figured Musgrave, Ponder PH and AD out. AD is just so good, even with 9 in the box hes going to get his yards. Hopefully he can hold onto the ball better then last night.

Ponder is being held back because Musgrave knows Ponder cant do anything. When Freeman was under pressure alot of times he made a play. Ponder would make a bonehead play. He senses pressure and panics, and then holds onto the ball to long. Its been 2 years now and the same mistakes repeat themselves. Its time to give someone else a chance at QB. Its too bad we got Webb as the backup. Why does MN have such a tough time with yong QBs, then go the route of old QBs, then start the mess all over again.

Like I said above, we were two failed passes, that no one attributes to being Ponders fault, away from have a SOLID aerial attack yesterday. While you are right that he didnt do enough to win. He had 4 deeper passes (15 yards or more imo) that looked beautiful. Unfortunately a freak play and a route too far out costed us two of them. Those two plays are made and we are in the game easy and ponder has over 300 yards through the air. I saw a step forward from last week. No turnovers for ponder (apart from the garbage one when the game was over) and touch on a couple of deeper passes.

[Mothman]

So who is the talented outside WR threat on the patriots that fits that description?

Brandon Lloyd (tied for 2nd on the team in receptions with 35 for 415 yards, averages 11.6 ypr) but what does that have to do with the Vikings?

I'm not saying every team needs to have a big outside threat at WR to be successful. I'm saying this Vikings offense needs that outside player, big or otherwise. They need a threat in the passing game that commands more respect than what they have after Harvin. The Pats have Gronkowski at TE, Welker in the slot, Lloyd on the outside and, of course, one of the best QBs of all time throwing to all of them, a standard we can hardly expect Ponder to reach right now, if ever.

The Vikings have Harvin in the slot, Rudolph (who is no Gronkowski) at TE and nobody comparable to Lloyd on the outside.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Brandon Lloyd (tied for 2nd on the team in receptions with 35 for 415 yards, averages 11.6 ypr) but what does that have to do with the Vikings?

I'm not saying every team needs to have a big outside threat at WR to be successful. I'm saying this Vikings offense needs that outside player, big or otherwise. They need a threat in the passing game that commands more respect than what they have after Harvin. The Pats have Gronkowski at TE, Welker in the slot, Lloyd on the outside and, of course, one of the best QBs of all time throwing to all of them, a standard we can hardly expect Ponder to reach right now, if ever.

The Vikings have Harvin in the slot, Rudolph (who is no Gronkowski) at TE and nobody comparable to Lloyd on the outside.

Simpson is actually better then Lloyd. Ponder just has no idea how to get the ball to him. That and Brady has about 5 minutes to look for him.