Postgame thoughts

[Mothman]

My post-game thoughts:

Our tackling was putrid. Not sure why, it's been pretty good so far this year.
Penalties. Sheesh. Penalties.
Love our record, but our upcoming schedule will make folks a heckuva lot less giddy about being 5-2 (and I say that thinking we have a great shot at 6-2). I see only 2.5 wins after the Tampa game. 5-3 could easily end up being 7-9. Or worse.

The upcoming schedule is one of the reasons I am so happy about the team's 5-2 record. I realize they could struggle to win in the second half of the season and I was hoping for at least a 3 game improvement over last season's W/L record. At this point, that looks very likely. and the confidence the team has built with their good start can only help them when they play against opponents like Chicago, GB and Houston.

[Just Me]

My post-game thoughts:

Our tackling was putrid. Not sure why, it's been pretty good so far this year.
Penalties. Sheesh. Penalties.
Love our record, but our upcoming schedule will make folks a heckuva lot less giddy about being 5-2 (and I say that thinking we have a great shot at 6-2). I see only 2.5 wins after the Tampa game. 5-3 could easily end up being 7-9. Or worse.
And at the risk of offending Emily Post or some other bastion of "good manners in the online world", I will quote myself from almost a year ago:
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psjordan
Post subject: Re: The future.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:10 pm

… Ponder is our Sanchez.

I never have understood the reluctance to "quote yourself." I have used it to show that I have been wrong about something, or to show that I was right about something, or to add context (from an older post I had made) or additional insight to a topic. So at least you are on record. And you may ultimately prove right on that.

[Cliff]

I never have understood the reluctance to "quote yourself." I have used it to show that I have been wrong about something, or to show that I was right about something, or to add context (from an older post I had made) or additional insight to a topic. So at least you are on record. And you may ultimately prove right on that.

Sanchez has been QB for the Jets when they've made it as far as the AFCC and has a few playoff wins under his belt. The Jets are built so that a strong defense carries an often average offense. That can be a winning formula but you need more balance than the Jets have had in recent history.

[joe h]

There is no excuse if we end up with a losing record. We are more than capable of splitting the series with Green Bay and Chicago, and sweeping Detroit. But if we want to make a playoff run, Tampa and Seattle are must wins.

[mansquatch]

To the point on this team not being able to recover from mistakes offense: They committed two terrible mistakes today and still won. Same in Tennessee game. The Defense/ Running Game are awesome, which has the ability to offset the current passing ineptitude. Not something we want to rely on, but it is what it is.

On Ponder: I cannot recall all of his picks, but I am positive that the two today as well as the pick 6 against the Redskins were all cases where Ponder made terrible decisions. In both cases yesterday those picks were balls that should never have been thrown. Ponder needs to take the loss of yards/sack, same with the Williams pick against the Redskins.

IMO, the current issue with Ponder is defenses are rattling him and getting into his head. The coaches need to settle him down and Ponder needs to learn to protect the ball and rely on his defense. Take the sack. Just take the sack.

I agree on the WR issues being part of what we are not seeing deeper passes, but that is not the major cause of these picks. Yes, nobody get open on the plays where he tossed INT yesterday, I think in one Ponder held the ball for 6+ seconds. In these casese Ponder needs to just take the coverage sack and win the field position battle, ie rely on his defense. In the grand scheme we need more pop at 15+ yards in the passing game to go deep into the playoffs. However, I think they need to fix Ponder's jitters before worrying about that. A lot of the mistakes the past 3 weeks stink of rookie QB.

IMO, this is different than TJoke. TJoke just couldn't make the reads or the throws. That is different than what we are seeing. Ponder's mistakes are failures in his role as game manager. IMO, these are likely easier things to fix.

[losperros]

On Ponder: I cannot recall all of his picks, but I am positive that the two today as well as the pick 6 against the Redskins were all cases where Ponder made terrible decisions. In both cases yesterday those picks were balls that should never have been thrown. Ponder needs to take the loss of yards/sack, same with the Williams pick against the Redskins.

IMO, the current issue with Ponder is defenses are rattling him and getting into his head. The coaches need to settle him down and Ponder needs to learn to protect the ball and rely on his defense. Take the sack. Just take the sack.

Excellent observation. When I watched Ponder play for Florida State, he was good but the worst thing about him was his stubborn belief that every play had to work. That led to him outsmarting himself and forcing things. That doesn't work, especially in the NFL. I hope as Ponder learns he will settle down or he's going to to hurt the team more than help it.

OTOH, I'm one of those terrible people that doesn't believe the putrid passing game is all on Ponder. Yes, weird as it sounds, I actually think the inconsistent pass blocking and especially the disappointing play by the WRs figure into the productivity drought as well. That doesn't take Ponder off the hook at all. I'm saying he has plenty of company on the same hook.

One last thought regarding something from Kevin Siefert's column:

As Frazier has stated many times, this is a team built to run the ball and play good defense above all else.

I know I'm oversimplifying things but this philosophy of willfully having an unbalanced team scares the heck out of me. I hope that Frazier wants more than just a running game and a good D. I mean, attention has certainly been paid to the special teams, so I'm hoping the same scrutiny will go into improving the passing game.

[NextQuestion]

Bring in Webb to open the game on Thursday

[mansquatch]

Excellent observation. When I watched Ponder play for Florida State, he was good but the worst thing about him was his stubborn belief that every play had to work. That led to him outsmarting himself and forcing things. That doesn't work, especially in the NFL. I hope as Ponder learns he will settle down or he's going to to hurt the team more than help it.

OTOH, I'm one of those terrible people that doesn't believe the putrid passing game is all on Ponder. Yes, weird as it sounds, I actually think the inconsistent pass blocking and especially the disappointing play by the WRs figure into the productivity drought as well. That doesn't take Ponder off the hook at all. I'm saying he has plenty of company on the same hook.

One last thought regarding something from Kevin Siefert's column:
I know I'm oversimplifying things but this philosophy of willfully having an unbalanced team scares the heck out of me. I hope that Frazier wants more than just a running game and a good D. I mean, attention has certainly been paid to the special teams, so I'm hoping the same scrutiny will go into improving the passing game.

I think your observations on Ponder are very helpful regarding his past. I think that is exactly what he was doing on those plays. My view is that he needs to learn to play within himself, and that means taking the sack on those downs.

Regarding the rest of the passing offense, my position was more to look at the specifics on the INT vs. the overall status of the Passing Offense. I think when you look at it on the whole then the other players are certainly on the hook.

I think Frasier's observations were more in line with what this team currently is vs. what they want to be. Also, if they defense can stand up to a strong passing attack, then the philosophy is very sound. The issue is the offense needs to be able to score that one extra TD in the 2nd half to close. That is what I view as currently lacking. Well that, and the flurry of dumb turnovers the past 3 weeks.

[Mothman]

One last thought regarding something from Kevin Siefert's column:
I know I'm oversimplifying things but this philosophy of willfully having an unbalanced team scares the heck out of me. I hope that Frazier wants more than just a running game and a good D. I mean, attention has certainly been paid to the special teams, so I'm hoping the same scrutiny will go into improving the passing game.

I think it will, Craig. They drafted a QB to develop and have been adding pieces to help improve the passing game ever since. I expect that to continue. I have absolutely no doubt that this team wants to build a potent passing game.

Rather than being willfully unbalanced, I think Frazier's goal is balance. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting him but I think he (wisely) wants a team that doesn't have to rely on good performances from the QB and passing game to win. A good running game and strong defense provide a reliable foundation on which to build and if that foundation is in place, it not only helps the team win while developing a QB, it should make them extremely formidable once that passing game comes into it's own.

[Mothman]

I think your observations on Ponder are very helpful regarding his past. I think that is exactly what he was doing on those plays. My view is that he needs to learn to play within himself, and that means taking the sack on those downs.

I don't even think he has to do that. He just needs to get a better handle on the risks and rewards of certain situation and make decisions accordingly. he has the ability to escape the pass rush so by all means, he should use it. I'd much rather see him escape the pocket on a play like that INT intended for Rudolph then take a sack near his own goal line. It's just that once he escapes the pocket, he needs to realize that a risky pass isn't worth throwing (especially on that part of the field) and either run out of bounds, take a dive once he's gained what he can gain, or throw the ball away.

He did a nice job of escaping the pass rush on the second INT play too. He just needed to make a quick decision after that and bail on the play by the team he decided to actually throw the ball away, the pass rush had caught up to him again.

You're absolutely right in saying these errors are mental errors. I just don't think he needs to take the sack unless it can't be avoided. He just shouldn't take the risks either, unless the situation warrants it.

[Crax]

our WR sucks really really really bad. The lack of passing game is being blamed more on Ponder, but it's a clearcut 50-50

I don't agree with this. Harvin is by far the best receiver we've had since Moss/Carter. You can't even try and argue that guys like Bobby wade and Berrian are better. You could attempt to argue that for one single year, Rice was good. Rudolph has also shown that he can catch a ball that isn't completely over his head or behind him. Our main receivers aren't prone to drops either.

One of the int's that ponder threw yesterday was not Rudolph's fault at all. Rudolph was wide open. People keep bringing up WR's, but TE's and RB's also have the ability to catch a pass. Rudolph isn't on our team due to his blocking skills. In fact, he's a pretty mediocre blocker. Between Harvin and Rudolph, we have guys that have no problem catching the ball without being uncovered. If ponder can't/won't throw to a guy that isn't wide open, that's really not the receivers fault. People may bring up the fact that our WR's aren't wide open, but Sidney Rice wasn't wide open every time farve threw him the ball and neither was Harvin. Harvin has had plenty of catches while covered.

I think a lot of it is that ponder doesn't have the ability to consistently make a throw into a tight window. Running a crossing route doesn't take immense speed as a TE, it's positioning and route running along with a precise timing throw. I'm not sure ponder can make those throws regularly.

Rudolph had 0 catches yesterday. Does Rudolph just "suck really really really bad."? Before someone misconstrues what I'm saying, I'm not asking for 30+ yard passes. I'm asking for more crossing routes, pick plays, and things across the middle. So please, don't say I'm expecting the 1998 vikings, I know we don't have that personnel and most teams don't. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other, it can be somewhere in the middle. I don't believe our WR's are as terrible as people want to make them out to be especially when we have a guy like Harvin and a TE with a huge catch radius and great hands.

[Eli]

Enough with the excuses for Ponder. It's no longer even making sense to the eternal optimists any more.

[mansquatch]

I don't even think he has to do that. He just needs to get a better handle on the risks and rewards of certain situation and make decisions accordingly. he has the ability to escape the pass rush so by all means, he should use it. I'd much rather see him escape the pocket on a play like that INT intended for Rudolph then take a sack near his own goal line. It's just that once he escapes the pocket, he needs to realize that a risky pass isn't worth throwing (especially on that part of the field) and either run out of bounds, take a dive once he's gained what he can gain, or throw the ball away.

He did a nice job of escaping the pass rush on the second INT play too. He just needed to make a quick decision after that and bail on the play by the team he decided to actually throw the ball away, the pass rush had caught up to him again.

You're absolutely right in saying these errors are mental errors. I just don't think he needs to take the sack unless it can't be avoided. He just shouldn't take the risks either, unless the situation warrants it.

Moth I think you and I are on the same page. I'm not saying he should always accept the sack so much as wanting to focus on the "don't throw the stupid pass" aspect of it. As I said previously, I think these are easily fixable errors.

[Mothman]

Moth I think you and I are on the same page. I'm not saying he should always accept the sack so much as wanting to focus on the "don't throw the stupid pass" aspect of it. As I said previously, I think these are easily fixable errors.

Yes, we're on the same page.

Eli, I'm not really seeing excuses for Ponder in this thread. We all know he had a bad game yesterday. However, in football, no player performs in a bubble. I've been watching the game as I work this morning and I've seen Ponder make a number of bad throws (some good ones too, although not enough) but I've also seen rapid breakdowns in protection on play after play. Protection breakdowns don't excuse poor decisions by the QB but let's face it, the way a defense forces mistakes from an opposing QB is by applying pressure and the Cardinals applied plenty of it.

Bottom line: Ponder has to play better. The line has to play better. The receivers have to play better. Everyone involved in the passing game has to be better than they were yesterday.

[LA Viking]

I guess most has been said, but ...

The coaching/playcalling at the end of the first half was awful. Unacceptable. I am still not sold on Frazier (though maybe it's more Musgrave?).

What happened to Simpson? Saw him start, get a PI call, and then disappeared? Was his back still nagging him? I think it shows that we need him offensively; our WR corps (sans Harvin) is pretty bad.

Tackling was very poor.

Lastly, I watch a lot of the Niners (gf is Niners fan) and I'd say Ponder is our Alex Smith. Not a great endorsement, but with a great D and coach we could go far, but we don't have either (yet).

Just think if we had lost to the Skins last year, we could have RG3.