John Carlson's contract

[jackal]

John Carlson has been a complete bust so far. I know he got a 25 million dollar contract

I am wondering how much he gets paid if we dump him?

[dead_poet]

John Carlson's five-year, $25 million contract with the Minnesota Vikings could end up being a two-year, $11 million pact, depending how the veteran tight end produces.

According to a source with access to NFL salary data, only $9.1 million of the deal Carlson signed on Wednesday is truly guaranteed -- a $5 million signing bonus, plus Carlson's full $2.9 million base salary in 2012 and $1.2 million of his $2.9 million base salary in 2013.

The rest is tied up in scheduled base salaries of $3.9 million in 2014 and $4.9 million in 2015 and '16, plus annual workout bonuses of $100,000. It's the sort of pay-as-you-go deal the Vikings have used for years to keep their cap healthy.

The larger base salaries kick in the same year as the NFL's new TV deal, which is expected to significantly increase the salary cap in 2014. If the contract hasn't worked out by then, the Vikings could cut Carlson after paying him $11 million for two seasons and take a $3 million cap hit in 2014.

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/John ... pact031612

[jackal]

Dump him and give Ellison and Allen Reisner the playing time

[dead_poet]

Dump him and give Ellison and Allen Reisner the playing time

It won't happen this season. He'll be given a long leash and every chance to succeed. But if he's as invisible at week 16 as he's been through the first four weeks, he may end up going the way of Remi at the end of the season (though if he's cut, I don't see it happening until after next season, provided he remains as ineffective as he's been thus far). Ellison has seemed to play as well or better, though. If Carlson doesn't improve, he may end up losing a few snaps.

[jackal]

well i will just have to hope that he wakes up and is come back player of the year then

[Mothman]

It won't happen this season. He'll be given a long leash and every chance to succeed. But if he's as invisible at week 16 as he's been through the first four weeks, he may end up going the way of Remi at the end of the season (though if he's cut, I don't see it happening until after next season, provided he remains as ineffective as he's been thus far). Ellison has seemed to play as well or better, though. If Carlson doesn't improve, he may end up losing a few snaps.

They don't seem to be targeting him much. Is that because he's not on the field often, not getting open, rarely the primary or secondary receiver, just playing poorly...?

Maybe it's a combination of some or all of the above. Harvin and Rudolph have clearly become Ponder's favorite targets and Simpson may quickly join that group. There are only so many passes per game to distribute and since Rudolph is clearly the top TE on the roster, I imagine he's lining up in most 1 TE sets so the game plan is a factor as well. I'm not making excuses for Carlson, just wondering about reasons for his lack of production. It may be due to poor play or it may be due to circumstances somewhat beyond his control. It would be interesting to hear Musgrave comment some more on this subject.

[mansquatch]

Maybe it's a combination of some or all of the above. Harvin and Rudolph have clearly become Ponder's favorite targets and Simpson may quickly join that group. There are only so many passes per game to distribute and since Rudolph is clearly the top TE on the roster, I imagine he's lining up in most 1 TE sets so the game plan is a factor as well. I'm not making excuses for Carlson, just wondering about reasons for his lack of production. It may be due to poor play or it may be due to circumstances somewhat beyond his control. It would be interesting to hear Musgrave comment some more on this subject.

Moth your take is excellent and echoes my own. I want to know why he is invisible. Is he running poor routes, has the injury from pre-season hampered him, or something else? Last year we found out after the fact that Rudolph was fighting a pre-season injury the entire season. Maybe this is the case with Carlson this year?

[dead_poet]

Moth your take is excellent and echoes my own. I want to know why he is invisible. Is he running poor routes, has the injury from pre-season hampered him, or something else? Last year we found out after the fact that Rudolph was fighting a pre-season injury the entire season. Maybe this is the case with Carlson this year?

Part of the issue is simply getting on the field and in a position to contribute. If my math is right he's only been on the field for 45 out of 137 (33%) snaps the last two weeks. It's hard to be productive and make your mark when you're on the sidelines. In the San Francisco game, Pelissero noted he was actually fairly productive as a blocker (the same was said of Rudolph vs. the Lions, which is nice). Perhaps he's being to block much more than originally planned? I'm not sure without re-watching the last couple of games and focusing on him. Pelissero did say the few plays Rudoloph was a receiver he was covered well. I think missing most of camp/preseason had a bigger impact than anticipated (chemistry/timing with Ponder, conditioning, learning/running the offense, etc.).

[mansquatch]

That is my sense of it, plus possible lingering injury issues.

The season is young, hopefully he can get it together in the latter 8 games when we have 5 NFC north games, including on the road at GB and CHI as well as playing @ Houston. We are going to need him.

[S197]

They don't seem to be targeting him much. Is that because he's not on the field often, not getting open, rarely the primary or secondary receiver, just playing poorly...?

Yes.

Whatever the reason, 1 catch for -1 yard is unacceptable for a player who is in a TE heavy offense.

[Mothman]

Yes.

Whatever the reason, 1 catch for -1 yard is unacceptable for a player who is in a TE heavy offense.

I don't think it matters as long as the team is winning. I'm not sure the Vikes are really running a TE-heavy offense so far this season anyway. It doesn't look like one and if dead_poet's estimate that Carlson has only been in on 33% of the snaps is even close to correct, that reinforces that impression. Even if they are a TE heavy offense, a scheme that frequently puts 2 TEs on the field at the same time doesn't necessarily mean a high number of receptions for both TEs.

We're 4 games in and I think a lot has to be considered when looking at something like this. Personally, I want to wait and see if his role develops in the offense over the course of the season. Maybe it will turn out that signing him was (as someone put it the other day) a swing a miss or maybe he will find a good, productive role in the passing game. It's too early for me to worry about his numbers but I understand why others feel differently. I'm just not sure how much of this is under Carlson's control.

[S197]

II don't think it matters as long as the team is winning. I'm not sure the Vikes are really running a TE-heavy offense so far this season anyway. It doesn't look like one and if dead_poet's estimate that Carlson has only been in on 33% of the snaps is even close to correct, that reinforces that impression. Even if they are a TE heavy offense, a scheme that frequently puts 2 TEs on the field at the same time doesn't necessarily mean a high number of receptions for both TEs.

Musgrave frequently runs a 2-TE set. It's been his mantra since his days in Atlanta, I don't even know how that can be disputed. The Vikings main formations are bunch sets with either two TE's on the line or sometimes even in at FB. Also, we're not talking about a high number of receptions, we're talking about receptions period. Carlson has ONE. For negative 1 yards. I'm failing to understand your stance.

"We want to get him more involved this week," coach Leslie Frazier said. "That will be the goal and we'll see how the game goes, but we feel like he is past the injury point."

That was before week 2.

We're 4 games in and I think a lot has to be considered when looking at something like this. Carlson could get open on 15 plays a game and if he's not the primary or secondary target on those plays, and one of those targets are open, he's still not likely to get the ball because he's too far down the progression ladder. I'm not saying that's happening and it's an extreme example but this offense is clearly (and wisely) trying to feature Harvin, Peterson and Rudolph as it's 3 main weapons. I have little doubt Simpson will be added to that list too. Where does Carlson fit in? I'm not saying he doesn't fit in or can't fit in because I think there's a role for him but as long as those other players are healthy, I wouldn't expect big numbers from Carlson this season because frankly, they should be looking to get the ball to the other 4 guys first.

If that's the case, what the heck are we paying him for? If he's a 5th option, why is he being paid like a top tier TE?

Carlson has proven himself to be a pretty good (definitely not great) receiving TE over the years. I think we should wait and see if his role develops in the offense over the course of the season. Maybe it will turn out that signing him was (as someone put it the other day) a swing a miss or maybe he will find a good, productive role in the passing game. It's too early for me to worry about his numbers but I understand why others feel differently.

I'm just not convinced much of this is under Carlson's control.

He's played in 4 games and done nothing, Frazier has said he's trying to get him involved and that has not materialized, he's getting paid like a top-tier TE, and he plays in an offense that features the TE position a great deal. Even a guy like Aromashodu, who rarely sees the field, has shown up at some point so far. Really is it too much to ask to have some modicum of production by now? I hope he develops as the season progresses as well but to say he doesn't deserve the criticism he's getting or things are beyond his control, I'm sorry I'm not buying it.

[Mothman]

Musgrave frequently runs a 2-TE set. It's been his mantra since his days in Atlanta, I don't even know how that can be disputed. The Vikings main formations are bunch sets with either two TE's on the line or sometimes even in at FB. Also, we're not talking about a high number of receptions, we're talking about receptions period. Carlson has ONE. For negative 1 yards. I'm failing to understand your stance.

I can sum up my basic stance on this in 4 words: I want more information.

I'm not disputing that Musgrave has a fondness for 2 TE sets but how many has he actually run in the past 4 games and how often was Carlson asked to block vs. running a route when he was on the field? I know they've said they want to get him more involved but saying it and doing it are two different things. How much real effort have they made to get him more involved in the passing attack during games? If it hasn't been much, is that Carlson's fault, the OC's fault, or just a consequence of something else?

If that's the case, what the heck are we paying him for? If he's a 5th option, why is he being paid like a top tier TE?

I can't answer that but I don't think that's something for us to really worry about as fans. They obviously paid him because they wanted him. Maybe they envisioned a much bigger role for him in the offense and they just haven't been able to get it fully implemented yet.

He's played in 4 games and done nothing, Frazier has said he's trying to get him involved and that has not materialized, he's getting paid like a top-tier TE, and he plays in an offense that features the TE position a great deal. Even a guy like Aromashodu, who rarely sees the field, has shown up at some point so far. Really is it too much to ask to have some modicum of production by now?

No, of course not, but who cares as long as they're winning? The Vikings is to win games, not to make sure every player gets the necessary amount of touches in accordance with his salary.

I hope he develops as the season progresses as well but to say he doesn't deserve the criticism he's getting or things are beyond his control, I'm sorry I'm not buying it.

But it or don't buy it, there are factors well beyond his control. A TE can't catch passes that aren't thrown to him and he doesn't determine whether his assignment is to block or run a route. He doesn't determine if he's the first, second, third or fourth read on a play. if someone ahead of him in that progression gets open, they're likely to get the ball even if Carlson gets open. That's the way it works. he has no control over any of it. All he can do is carry out his assignments.

I'm not saying he does or doesn't deserve criticism. I'm just saying I don't know and I need more information. Carlson is definitely a disappointment so far. I want to know why.

[Eli]

I don't think the Vikings have run many two TE formations this year. Certainly not as many as anticipated. According to Pellisero's count in the Lions game Carlson only played 14 snaps, Ellison 9, and I'm sure at least 1/2 of Ellison's snaps were at FB. Meanwhile, Rudolph was on the field for all 58 offensive plays, but only had 2 catches.

[Mothman]

Here's some info related to what I'm struggling to express:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... ml?refer=y

Vikings offensive coordinator Bill Musgrave called a play designed to get John Carlson free down the sideline as Christian Ponder's primary target.

At the snap, Carlson cut through traffic near the line as Ponder gave a quick pump fake to Percy Harvin on a screen. The plan got scuttled, however, when San Francisco linebacker Patrick Willis smartly recognized Carlson's intentions and smothered him in man coverage, something the Vikings weren't expecting. Ponder countered by tucking the ball and running 23 yards through the teeth of the 49ers defense for a touchdown in the second quarter of the Vikings' 24-13 victory last week.

That read-and-react moment by Ponder provided another measurable sign of progress in the young quarterback's development. But it also left Carlson's catch total stuck on zero after three games with his hometown team.

"Christian made the right play," Carlson said. "He shouldn't have thrown that ball."

Carlson has maintained a positive outlook despite his negligible impact. He's been targeted on only two passes in three games and played 65 snaps total, according to ProFootballFocus.