Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

[psjordan]

I am not going to my usual place of outlining what pieces of our success seem repeatable (or not) in future games. That would be raining on the parade a bit.

This was a very nice win and I want to pick one element out of the last two games that I think bodes very well going forward.

We are hitting like MO-FO's on defense. I mean we are CRACKING out there. I can guarantee you that the late "failure to catch" by megatron was just a tiny bit due to the pass being too hot but was MOSTLY due to our defense smacking him silly all day. On one of his five catches (late in game and over the middle), I saw him noticeably "turtle" a bit when turning blind upfield after the catch.

There is no question our renewed physical nature on defense is setting a tone out there. And honestly I think it carries over to the OL and the RB's.

And you know what - hard hitting and good tackling IMO is largely due to coaching. There, I said it.

So I applaud the staff and players for making that progress. It is noticeable and it is (IMO) leading to wins.

And I will refrain from pointing out the wheels are missing a lugnut here and there and could possibly come flying off at some point!

[John_Viveiros]

He actually has two turnovers (a fumble in each of the first two games) but that's still good after 4 games.

Ha ha. I was looking at the game splits, and the first game had already rotated off the stat sheet. I guess that invalidates the point.

Ok. Eight turnovers for the season (which could really happen - four could not). And an extra turnover per game, which could have cost us a win or two.

[canadaviking08]

But they really didn't run all that much clock. Lions won the TOP battle 30:42 to the Vikings' 29:18. Lions ran 76 offensive plays to the Vikings 56 offensive plays. Vikes were 3-12 on 3rd downs and Ponder finished the day with a whopping 100 net yards passing.

If the Vikes don't get the big special teams plays it's very possible they would have scored 6 points and, despite the better defensive effort, lost the game outright.

Why do people say if this did not happen, if that did not happen the Vikings would lose. Last time I checked Special teams is part of football. Returns on kickoffs and punts happens every week and teams actually do practice this. This was not some fluke play where Ponder pass bounced off two helmets,tipped by another defender, hit the refs leg then caught by Rudolph with his legs.

I even think Sherels would have called a fair catch if it was another team with good special teams but I am sure coaches told him to run it back when there is even a slight opportunity especially since we had the lead and lions are so bad. Like Mothman stated, a team will play differently when they have the lead. If we did not score those Tds, our offensive gameplan would have changed.

[VikingLord]

One play that stands out is the fourh and 5 from the Vikings 7. Allen was off the field with a cramp and Vikings called an aggressive blitz (with Griffen sacking Stafford). I was Soo happy to see that call. It could have gone the other way with Stafford beating the blitz, sure, but they dialed up a blitz after spending the entire game up to that point in a deep cover two. Great, gutsy call.

It was also nice to see the Lions completely fail to block him. It never hurts (well, except if you're the QB) when the offensive team does it's part to ensure a very good pass rusher gets a free run at the QB's blind side.

[VikingLord]

Why do people say if this did not happen, if that did not happen the Vikings would lose.

Because its true?

Last time I checked Special teams is part of football. Returns on kickoffs and punts happens every week and teams actually do practice this. This was not some fluke play where Ponder pass bounced off two helmets,tipped by another defender, hit the refs leg then caught by Rudolph with his legs.

The last time you checked, did you realize how rare those big special teams plays are and relying on them to win games is generally not a good idea? They are nice if you can get them and they make everyone happy, but in terms of the punt return, for example, the last one of those the Vikings had for a TD was back in like 2008 against Arizona. I think Berrian ran one back. Honestly, if you want to talk flukes, getting not one, but 2 returns for a TD in a single game is the definition of a fluke game. Unless, of course, you're the Lions, in which case its a day at the office apparently, but for most teams, getting overly excited about the future because your team won based on extremely rare events is probably not warranted.

I even think Sherels would have called a fair catch if it was another team with good special teams but I am sure coaches told him to run it back when there is even a slight opportunity especially since we had the lead and lions are so bad. Like Mothman stated, a team will play differently when they have the lead. If we did not score those Tds, our offensive gameplan would have changed.

You mean, like he did for almost the rest of the game? Did Sherels even return a punt besides the one he ran back? If he did, it was just one or 2 others, and on the one he decided to return, he was hit almost immediately after fielding it. There were others where he had room, was inside or near the 10 yard line, and he fair-caught those.

I really wish I could buy the argument that the team played so conservatively on offense because they had the lead. The funny part of that argument is, the Lions are a team that can put up bunches of points in a hurry, they were at home, and they needed the win. For all the accolades about the game plan, the fact remains that the Vikings really didn't play keep-away all that effectively if that was their intent. And against most prolific offenses, that conservative, play-not-to-lose approach is going to get this team killed. That the Lions weren't able to take advantage of it is great for this week and everyone can feel good about it. But at some point the Vikings offense is going to need to show something consistent in terms of a mid and deep passing attack to complement that running game. Ponder nearly threw a pick-6 to Cliff Avril, and the short hitches he fired to Harvin were almost immediately snuffed out. This shouldn't come as a shocker to anyone, but it appears the news is now out and Musgrave and Ponder are both going to have to start looking more downfield if these wins are going to keep coming.

[mansquatch]

-I'm curious why all of AD's carries were up the middle. Less strain on his knee? Better run blocking? I'm not concerned, just curious. Every single one of AD's runs were between the tackles.

I heard this mentioned on the radio, I think Paul Allen’s show. They said they AP’s power is back but his burst isn’t quite there yet, thus it makes sense to run him between the tackles where they can leverage his ability to cut and shake tackles. I cannot confirm if that is the truth, but it certainly seems plausible. Apparently a 90% AP is still better than about most of the RB in the league, what an amazing talent.

Here is to old school smashmouth style football still finding success in the 2012 NFL. Just got to love Harrison Smith delivering that shot on Calvin Johnson to save the touchdown. You almost had a sense that the hits the Vikings were dishing out were getting into the heads of the Detroit receivers.

[vikesfan87]

I got to say the punt return by Sherels was a thing of beauty. I'm used to stuff like that on a near weekly basis in the CFL with the wider field, but on an NFL field that was just spectacular!

[losperros]

Because its true?

If the queen had balls, she'd be king. She doesn't so she's not. Ifs don't work.

"If this did not happen"... Well, it did happen. The "ifs" are just an attempt to find something sour about a win.

I really wish I could buy the argument that the team played so conservatively on offense because they had the lead. The funny part of that argument is, the Lions are a team that can put up bunches of points in a hurry, they were at home, and they needed the win. For all the accolades about the game plan, the fact remains that the Vikings really didn't play keep-away all that effectively if that was their intent. And against most prolific offenses, that conservative, play-not-to-lose approach is going to get this team killed. That the Lions weren't able to take advantage of it is great for this week and everyone can feel good about it. But at some point the Vikings offense is going to need to show something consistent in terms of a mid and deep passing attack to complement that running game. Ponder nearly threw a pick-6 to Cliff Avril, and the short hitches he fired to Harvin were almost immediately snuffed out. This shouldn't come as a shocker to anyone, but it appears the news is now out and Musgrave and Ponder are both going to have to start looking more downfield if these wins are going to keep coming.

Look, Edward, I agree that the day is coming where the Vikings are gong to have to throw medium to deep passes to pull out a win. I guess I don't buy the argument that all is lost because the Vikings haven't done that yet. I'm not convinced they can't get the ball downfield nor am I convinced that they won't.

Who knows? Maybe you're right to complain. But I wouldn't bet on it. They've already been doing things this year that a lot of people, including myself, said the team couldn't do before the season started. For example, they've been winning. I'd say that's as good of a place to start as any.

[Thaumaturgist]

An interesting stat

sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl-today-week-4-021735138--nfl.html

Special teams

-Percy Harvin and Marcus Sherels, Vikings. Harvin returned the opening kickoff 105 yards for a TD and Sherels returned a punt 77 yards for a TD for Minnesota's only TDs in a 20-13 win over Detroit. Minnesota is the first team in NFL history to record both a kickoff-return touchdown and a punt-return touchdown in a game three different times.

[NextQuestion]

I feel like there's too much optimism right now. Everyone here hated Sherels until he returned that punt for a TD yesterday. Him and Harvin were our saving grace yesterday 100%

Defense: We got lucky with a couple of endzone drops by Megatron and Pettigrew. I like how we're more physical but would be nice to still get picks and set our team up with better field position.

Offense: One nice pass to Jerome at the end there but otherwise a huge ZzZZZzZZ. Adrain was great but I just get the feeling nobody is getting open. Ponder might get media love right now but he's had 2-4 passes nearly picked that were AWFUL throws.

overall: I like how we're playing. Who doesn't like winning? I still worry about playing high powered offenses like GB.

[Mothman]

The last time you checked, did you realize how rare those big special teams plays are and relying on them to win games is generally not a good idea? They are nice if you can get them and they make everyone happy, but in terms of the punt return, for example, the last one of those the Vikings had for a TD was back in like 2008 against Arizona. I think Berrian ran one back. Honestly, if you want to talk flukes, getting not one, but 2 returns for a TD in a single game is the definition of a fluke game.

It's unusual but to me, fluke implies that those returns were chance occurrences or lucky breaks and I don't think that's true. However, I agree that a team can't rely on such plays to win games week after week. Fortunately, at this point, the Vikings aren't doing that anyway...

I really wish I could buy the argument that the team played so conservatively on offense because they had the lead.

I don't think that was the only reason and I don't think they were that conservative. Field position played a significant role in their offensive production and, I suspect, in their play selection. The Vikings starting field position in this game:

First Half:
MIN 28
MIN 9
MIN 9
MIN 21

Second Half:
MIN 10
MIN 13
MIN 29
MIN 17
MIN 20

With 5 of 9 possessions starting inside their own 20 and 3 beginning at the 9 or 10, I think the Vikes were playing a field position game quite a bit yesterday.

[Just Me]

Here is an interesting article.. It seems the kick-off return was as a result of an "intentional play" more than a "fluke."

Special teams coordinator Mike Priefer had studied video of the Tennessee Titans' 105-yard kick return in their win over the Lions and saw something he thought the Vikings could exploit -- particularly if Detroit covered its kickoffs the same way. So when Harvin took the game's opening kickoff and veered across the field, the Vikings knew they'd gotten exactly what they wanted. "It was a great call by Coach (Priefer)," Harvin said. "They (the Lions) overplayed it. The blockers did a great job, and I did the easy part."

More at the link....

[Mothman]

I feel like there's too much optimism right now. Everyone here hated Sherels until he returned that punt for a TD yesterday. Him and Harvin were our saving grace yesterday 100%

Defense: We got lucky with a couple of endzone drops by Megatron and Pettigrew. I like how we're more physical but would be nice to still get picks and set our team up with better field position.

Offense: One nice pass to Jerome at the end there but otherwise a huge ZzZZZzZZ. Adrain was great but I just get the feeling nobody is getting open. Ponder might get media love right now but he's had 2-4 passes nearly picked that were AWFUL throws.

overall: I like how we're playing. Who doesn't like winning? I still worry about playing high powered offenses like GB.

There will always be something to worry about but as some other teams have shown this season, GB's high-powered offense can be contained.

Jim

[losperros]

overall: I like how we're playing. Who doesn't like winning? I still worry about playing high powered offenses like GB.

Agreed. Games like that will be the litmus test. That's when the Vikings D will have to consistently be precise, not miss tackles or assignments, cover and hit extra hard. And it's when the offense will have to throw the ball downfield successfully. Things will have to open up for the Vikings.

It's just at this point I'm beginning to actually believe that this current Vikings team does have some surprises in them. Instead of dreading any upcoming games against high horsepower offenses, I'm actually looking forward to them. I'm not saying the Vikings will win all the time but I think they can make a game out of it against most any team.

It's still a rebuilding year. I think it's working. This current Vikings team is clearly better than last year's version.

[mansquatch]

I get some of the pessimism about the offense, but I agree with the general take that the Vikings on offense were playing to run time off the clock and they did do that.

The concern I had was when they missed the last field goal and when they had 3 and outs in the 2nd half. IMO, that is the ideal time to finish, sustain a drive and put up a TD. They didn’t do that, but they did win the game. In their defense, they did get in range to put up a FG, but Walsh didn’t deliver.

The argument that falls flat to me is the one about not relying on the special teams TDs. I don’t think the Vikings really were relying on those plays. Harvin returned the very first play of the game for a TD. That set the tone for the entire game. IMO they were not relying on these plays so much as playing to the gifts the Lions gave them. Also, their defense was limiting the Lion’s offense, so the way they played the offensive game worked, even if it was ugly.

Very happy with the win and very, very happy with the game planning.