Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by Raptorman »

Arma wrote: Imagine the ratings for that one :shock:. It's be too much heart ache for the team that loses.
Probably end in a tie after 5 OT's.
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by PurpleMustReign »

J. Kapp 11 wrote:Big bad dominating Calvin Johnson was short-arming balls yesterday after getting blasted a couple of times. Can you at least admit that it's possible all those hard hits had an effect?

Exactly... that's part of the reason I think Baltimore has been so effective for so many years. They cream everyone LEGALLY and it gets in the heads of the other teams.
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by Cliff »

Originally my problem with the win is that it seemed the offense worked almost exactly like it was drawn up. They were winning and after halftime they crawled into a shell to limit turnovers and relied on the defense. Which to me is why the stats look like they do and with the Vikings pass defense history seems like it would be a disaster. I was waiting for them to break like normal.

Then I got to thnking ... If the defense is stout enough to actually stop a passing game as good as the Lions then maybe that plan isn't so bad for this team.
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by Eli »

But were the second half stats so much different than those of the first half? The offense looked like it was in slow motion the whole game.
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by Mothman »

Eli wrote:But were the second half stats so much different than those of the first half? The offense looked like it was in slow motion the whole game.
I'm guessing the second half stats were inferior to the first half stats because they put together a few very nice drives in the first half. Their first scoring drive went 70 yards, beginning at their own 9 and ending at the Detroit 31 with a FG. Their second scoring drive went 82 yards, beginning at their own 9 and ending at the Detroit 9 with another field goal.

They didn't have any drives in the second half that compared to those two. Their best was the drive following the fumble Sanford forced and recovered. It started at their own 29 and ended at the Lions 28 with a missed FG.

Jim
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by losperros »

VikingLord wrote:Not denying it happened. Just not convinced it's worth getting all that excited about. Obviously I'm in the minority with that view, but that doesn't make the view any less valid. And citing 3 deep throws to one guy during the course of a game as evidence the Vikings aren't playing Chilly Ball is not helping the case that this offense is fundamentally different than the pathetic one we watched for years under Childress. 3 deep throws the entire game, all to the same guy on the same pattern. If PI wasn't called twice it you might even wipe the 6 points the Vikings offense managed off the board.

Of course, that didn't happen, so all is good in Vikings land. Keep doing what works...
I agree with much of what you've said, Edward. I want the Vikings to start stretching the field for the same reasons you do. It's just that with Simpson back and when Wright is one hundred percent, I think we'll see more downfield shots. I hope so, anyway. We did see some in the last game. That's a start.

I hate Chili ball. So I understand your feelings about it. Look at some of my posts from earlier this year. Like yourself, I was concerned about any 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense. If the Vikings offense doesn't progress, then I'll be concerned about it again. As it is, I think they do want to expand their offensive output. Again, it's just my view on it. Not only that but Percy Harvin just said in an interview that the Vikings will start going downfield more often. I don't think Harvin would just quote a company line on the subject.

That said, I want you to know I agree wholeheartedly with you that there is no way the Vikings can continue to win with such a meager output from its offensive passing game. There will be times where they're going to have to throw the ball down the field and be successful in doing so.

My sharpest disagreement with you is the "if" game. It doesn't work. It's almost like you want the NFL to change the final score and give the game to Detroit because they would have won *if* things had gone the way you felt they should have. That's simply not going to happen.
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by MDviking »

While I would really like to see the Vikes step on the throat of the Lions with bombs left and right, I don't think this game dictated that. As Jim said, the field position didn't favor them for most of the second half and with a 2 score lead, the risks far outweighed the rewards. I've been impressed with the passing game when they've been forced to use it, for example the last drive in regulation against a good Jacksonville defense. In a must passing situation, they were successful and scored. Ponder seems to keep preaching the "take what they give us mentality." So far it has worked.
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by VikingLord »

Mothman wrote:Why not enjoy it and look for further improvement next week instead of fretting over the ways the game could have slipped away?
I'm enjoying it. I'm just not sold that we're seeing the dawn of a new era quite yet.

Honestly, my real issue remains the same one I've had since Frazier took over and that is the focus on offense remains the same. I don't want to get into a big debate about whether the Vikings can have long-term success with a run-focused offense that deploys a condensed passing attack sprinkled with a few well-timed heaves down the sidelines for good measure. But what I saw on Sunday for the Vikings offense was Chilly Ball. The Lions snuffed out the short stuff that Harvin had been turning into extra yardage on his own and inflating Ponder's passing yardage. That brought Ponder's numbers way down, but it also indicated Ponder is going to throw that stuff even if the defense has it covered. A better QB is going to see tight man and go to another play and/or the 2nd read. Ponder either doesn't see it or has such blind faith in Percy he went to him anyway.

There was one such play where Ponder fired it to Percy very short and the Lions stopped him immediately where I think it was Jenkins was wide open heading down the field. A simple flip to Jenkins would have resulted in a big gain and maybe even a TD (although I don't know where the safety was on that play so maybe not), but looking away from Harvin and to a wide open Jenkins on that play was not asking a lot even out of a 2nd year QB. But Ponder didn't do that. He ran the play as called and I think the Vikes ended up punting.

This is not an isolated example. Ponder is managing the game, but he's not exactly showing recognition of what the defense is doing. Even the heaves down the sidelines are rote throws from what I can tell. Simpson was not open on any of those plays. The throws weren't bad per se, but one would hope with all the running and short throws that Simpson might have gotten behind the defense on at least one of those. I would like to see Ponder recognizing an open man who has beaten the coverage rather than just seeing his receiver lined up man pre-snap and firing it deep because that's the play that was called. Lot's of roll outs to the right that were completely ineffective. Ponder spends a lot of time huffing and puffing towards the sidelines because he lacks the confidence to step up in the pocket and fire it down field. He ends up moving sideways and backwards at the same time on a lot of those and it's amazing quite frankly that he manages to get any throw off at all. Ponder will also almost never move to his left on a broken play. That's a tendency defenses are going to start exploiting. It's only a matter of time.

Lastly, Ponder has no INT's on the year so far, but he's thrown many balls that quite honestly should have been picks. He did it again by throwing to Cliff Avril without even pausing to see if the lane was clear. I know, I know, another "if", but a problem nonetheless. Ponder's luck is going to run out at some point on those gift throws to the defense that so far have been dropped.

I love that the Vikings are 3-1. I just wish I believed in my heart that they are a good team that has turned the corner. I still don't see it. Their win over the 49ers was legit. That looked good and gave me reason for optimism. This win over the Lions, not so much. There are certainly bright spots and reason for optimism, but I see people posting about the Vikings-Titans game being a trap game like the Vikings are so good now and the Titans stink. I see national writers lauding the Vikings as if they are suddenly in the picture for playoff contention. I'm just not seeing any of that. I see fundamental issues that are deepening on the offensive side of the ball and a defense that is marginally better than last year, but nowhere near where it would have to be to make this team a serious contender. 100 yards net passing in an NFL game is never a good sign. It's worse when it comes against a defense that has not exactly been great at stopping opposing passing games. It's worse still when the QB and OC continue to run the same plays when the defense is snuffing them. It's unpardonable when the QB manages all of 3 attempts beyond 10 yards against that type of defense.

We'll see how things evolve, but Ponder and Musgrave took a big step back in this game IMHO.
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by Just Me »

I'm hearing what you're saying Vikinglord and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with all of it, but remember a couple of things:

1) Ponder is a 2nd year QB. That alone (in my book) answers why some of his "issues" exist. He is getting better. I believe he will continue to get better. I don't expect him not to have issues with only a partial season (sans a real off-season and training camp) before this year. I am actually happy with his progress. By all accounts he is better this year than last. Yes, he still tends to look down his receivers. He still needs to get better with his progressions. But he is making progress.

2) Even if you assume all his bad throws would/should end up in interceptions (instead of being dropped - and I freely acknowledge there were some of those), he still hasn't had as bad a day as Romo had last night. (5 interceptions! C'mon!) That from a seasoned, albeit somewhat average Quarterback.

3) I'm still not convinced this is 'Chilly-ball' (although I'll grant it was hard to discern the difference at times). Last game was the closest I had seen it to being that. I saw a 'flash' of what this offense can be against San Francisco. That was NOT Chilly-ball.

4) Our weapons are not complete. We are better this year, but we still have holes to fill. To expect our offense to perform like the "greatest show on turf" (sorry for the hyperbole - you're not suggesting that, but bear with me) is not realistic. Even with Simpson added to the team we are still woefully in need of decent receivers. That will affect how much emphasis we can put on the pass.


The truth of the matter is that if you take out the SF game (the only one we really won convincingly, ironically enough) we could have experienced 3 losses with a few swings of fate. 1-3. If I am consistent though, (and I try to be), woulda/coulda/shoulda is just an excuse when we lose a game. I don't know how I can apply a different standard when we win a game. The Vikings are 3-1. We might end up 3-13 again, nothing is ever guaranteed. But I will say this: It could be worse. We don't actually have "Chilly-ball" like they do in Cleveland (who are 0-4 right now.) The 'offensive genius' is at work again - I almost feel sorry for the Browns... :mrgreen:
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by Mothman »

Edward, I wrote a wordy, somewhat point-by-point response to your post but decided it was overkill. In a nutshell:

If this is the dawn of a new era for the Vikes, I'd say that's truly what it is: the very beginning. They still have plenty of work to do.

Regarding Ponder: he's young, He's still learning, he's going to make mistakes and he's imperfect we can't expect him to play like a seasoned veteran. He'll take steps forward and steps back. However, I think we should all be careful about making too many judgements based on what we think his reads or progressions are because frankly, most of the time, we simply don't know. On those 3 throws to Simpson, we don't know what was called, if Simpson was the primary receiver each time or if Ponder saw something pre-snap that led him to throw to Simpson. rote or not those throws were all good choices by the QB, passes thrown to a Wr who was "NFL open" in the sense that he was mismatched in on-on-one coverage. Each of those plays got a positive result so it's hard to see anything negative in Ponder's choice to throw those passes.

I also think we really have to view this team as a whole. The team as a whole. The win over the Lions may have been discouraging when it comes to the performance of the offense but it was as every bit as legitimate as the win against SF. The defense and special teams both played very good games. In fact, the latter were outstanding. It was a different sort of win but as a team, the Vikings earned it, just like they did the previous week and they left us with several reasons to remain optimistic.

You mentioned deepening issues on the offensive side of the ball but the Lions game followed what was arguably the best performance by the offense this season so are there deepening issues or last Sunday's performance low point production by the offense just atypical? Only time will really give us an answer.

There has been some overreaction to the Vikings 3-1 start and I doubt we can expect week-to-week consistency in all aspects of the game any time soon but if they can consistently bring the focus, physical play, discipline and newfound confidence they've displayed the last two weeks, that could help them overcome a lot of inconsistency.
Last edited by Mothman on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by losperros »

Just Me wrote:4) Our weapons are not complete. We are better this year, but we still have holes to fill. To expect our offense to perform like the "greatest show on turf" (sorry for the hyperbole - you're not suggesting that, but bear with me) is not realistic. Even with Simpson added to the team we are still woefully in need of decent receivers. That will affect how much emphasis we can put on the pass.

I believe the above has a great deal to do with everything we're seeing from this offense. As I've noted before, I do not see a championship quality roster on this team. They are rebuilding - period. That's very true about the passing game. The team needs a better WR corps.

To me the most impressive element about the current Vikings team is that they are 3-1 and not 0-4 (which I seriously thought might happen). Again, I'm merely looking for improvement this season. So far I think the Vikings have revealed that they are presently better than last year's version of the team.
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by Purple bruise »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Dude, the "if" arguments are not helping your cause. Every time you mention the 3-4 passes that "should have been picks," I can name drops or bad calls against us. You say, "If PI wasn't called twice." Well, it was. Why? Because Simpson was a matchup problem for Detroit in those situations. The "ifs" even out. All that really matters is what actually happens.

It's true the Vikings didn't play particularly well on offense against the Lions, at least not in the passing game. But it was good enough to beat a 2011 playoff team on the road. We've been saying, "Until this team does it on the road, I won't give them credit." They went on the road and won against a playoff team, at least a playoff team from last year.

By the way, the drops you mention by Detroit ... yes, they happened. But our secondary was absolutely thumping people. Yes, we got a couple of personal fouls, but they were worth it because we were hitting people hard, especially over the middle. Big bad dominating Calvin Johnson was short-arming balls yesterday after getting blasted a couple of times. Can you at least admit that it's possible all those hard hits had an effect?
I could not agree more with your argument and you make some fine points :thumbsup:
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Re: Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

Post by dead_poet »

VikingLord wrote:I'm enjoying it. I'm just not sold that we're seeing the dawn of a new era quite yet.

Honestly, my real issue remains the same one I've had since Frazier took over and that is the focus on offense remains the same. I don't want to get into a big debate about whether the Vikings can have long-term success with a run-focused offense that deploys a condensed passing attack sprinkled with a few well-timed heaves down the sidelines for good measure. But what I saw on Sunday for the Vikings offense was Chilly Ball. The Lions snuffed out the short stuff that Harvin had been turning into extra yardage on his own and inflating Ponder's passing yardage. That brought Ponder's numbers way down, but it also indicated Ponder is going to throw that stuff even if the defense has it covered. A better QB is going to see tight man and go to another play and/or the 2nd read. Ponder either doesn't see it or has such blind faith in Percy he went to him anyway.

There was one such play where Ponder fired it to Percy very short and the Lions stopped him immediately where I think it was Jenkins was wide open heading down the field. A simple flip to Jenkins would have resulted in a big gain and maybe even a TD (although I don't know where the safety was on that play so maybe not), but looking away from Harvin and to a wide open Jenkins on that play was not asking a lot even out of a 2nd year QB. But Ponder didn't do that. He ran the play as called and I think the Vikes ended up punting.

This is not an isolated example. Ponder is managing the game, but he's not exactly showing recognition of what the defense is doing. Even the heaves down the sidelines are rote throws from what I can tell. Simpson was not open on any of those plays. The throws weren't bad per se, but one would hope with all the running and short throws that Simpson might have gotten behind the defense on at least one of those. I would like to see Ponder recognizing an open man who has beaten the coverage rather than just seeing his receiver lined up man pre-snap and firing it deep because that's the play that was called. Lot's of roll outs to the right that were completely ineffective. Ponder spends a lot of time huffing and puffing towards the sidelines because he lacks the confidence to step up in the pocket and fire it down field. He ends up moving sideways and backwards at the same time on a lot of those and it's amazing quite frankly that he manages to get any throw off at all. Ponder will also almost never move to his left on a broken play. That's a tendency defenses are going to start exploiting. It's only a matter of time.

Lastly, Ponder has no INT's on the year so far, but he's thrown many balls that quite honestly should have been picks. He did it again by throwing to Cliff Avril without even pausing to see if the lane was clear. I know, I know, another "if", but a problem nonetheless. Ponder's luck is going to run out at some point on those gift throws to the defense that so far have been dropped.

I love that the Vikings are 3-1. I just wish I believed in my heart that they are a good team that has turned the corner. I still don't see it. Their win over the 49ers was legit. That looked good and gave me reason for optimism. This win over the Lions, not so much. There are certainly bright spots and reason for optimism, but I see people posting about the Vikings-Titans game being a trap game like the Vikings are so good now and the Titans stink. I see national writers lauding the Vikings as if they are suddenly in the picture for playoff contention. I'm just not seeing any of that. I see fundamental issues that are deepening on the offensive side of the ball and a defense that is marginally better than last year, but nowhere near where it would have to be to make this team a serious contender. 100 yards net passing in an NFL game is never a good sign. It's worse when it comes against a defense that has not exactly been great at stopping opposing passing games. It's worse still when the QB and OC continue to run the same plays when the defense is snuffing them. It's unpardonable when the QB manages all of 3 attempts beyond 10 yards against that type of defense.

We'll see how things evolve, but Ponder and Musgrave took a big step back in this game IMHO.
I'm curious if you have the same thoughts/perspective about the Texans and 49ers (and Ravens, to a slightly lesser extent this season) who employ a similar offensive strategy/game plan and are considered among the elite in the NFL this year. I think they've shown that you don't have to be the Packers (who defenses seem to have an answer for) and Saints (who have no defense) in order to be a successful team. Of those in the Top-10, only the Falcons, Patriots and Packers employ a clear-cut pass-first strategy that you're advocating produces the greatest results. Of course, the season is still young and the next Super Bowl champ could conceivably be a pass-first offense. But the Vikings have struck a nice balance in my mind, while playing to their strengths — their running back and Percy Harvin — while minimizing mistakes. I still maintain the best way to win in this league is knowing your roster and playing to your strengths and within yourself. But I'll try not to harp on that because I'm sure my position on that is known by now.

And I'm not entirely sure many think we're totally "there" right now and ready to compete in the NFC Championship game (or even the playoffs). I think if you look at it from a long-term perspective (i.e. improvement team-wide) that you'd be hard pressed to make a convincing argument the Vikings aren't going in the right direction. Now, it's only a matter of degree. For me, signs of progress were always the goals for this season. Winning three out of four games while seeing notable improvement from Ponder (granted some games have been better than others, but that's to be expected), the offensive line, secondary, linebackers and special teams without much of any vertical threat has been encouraging. If we can add another blue-chip receiving threat next season via the draft or free agency, I don't see how our offense doesn't take another step forward (more towards where you'd like us to be) with the chance to make the playoffs (or better).
and a defense that is marginally better than last year, but nowhere near where it would have to be to make this team a serious contender.
I posted some stats in another thread that you might be interested in. If they play this way for the rest of the season (with the slight improvement they've shown on a week-to-week basis) I absolutely believe they have what it takes to be a serious contender (with the giant caveat that the offense plays their part). As of now, statistically, the Vikings are one of the better defenses in the league in many categories. In some, they've improved dramatically over last season's squad. Of course, your remark could simply be a reflection of how little confidence you have in the offense and that the defense would have to compensate by having weekly showings like the Bears on Monday Night Football in order to win games.
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