3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

Post by Mothman »

jackal wrote:The OL is much improved and did not give up a sack against Detroit last week

Simpson seems to be adding to our offense ans stretching the field.

Our secondary seems to be not giving up as much deep this year(Harrison Smith).

Ponder still has not thrown for big yardage very much.. Can we keep up with GB in a game ?
They've scored fewer points than the Vikes and are barely averaging more yards per game than Minnesota so as long as the Vikings defense keeps playing like it has the last few games, I'd say the Vikes have a good chance.

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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

Post by jackal »

I love Ponder not turning the ball over;however I would love to see the offense score a touchdown more every game

I am not saying Tom Brady 50 points, but two touchdowns in the air average would be sweet with the defense we have now
and special teams playing well.
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

Post by Mothman »

jackal wrote:I love Ponder not turning the ball over;however I would love to see the offense score a touchdown more every game

I am not saying Tom Brady 50 points, but two touchdowns in the air average would be sweet with the defense we have now
and special teams playing well.
I agree and I hope the Vikings are working on their red zone offense because it seems like finishing drives with TDs has been one of the more disappointing aspects of the offense thus far in 2012. They're not awful at it or anything but they need to get the ball in the endzone more often.
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

Post by VikingLord »

To me, those lousy numbers are overshadowed by the fact he’s the only starting QB in the league without an interception. His streak of passes without a pick is 124, including 123 this year.
Why this is being bandied around so much is puzzling to me. Yes, Ponder hasn't thrown an INT, but that's not for a lack of trying. He's thrown several balls that should have been picked, including one directly to Cliff Avril just last week. I think he's actually done that at least once in every game so far this year.

If we're going to laud Ponder for his great decision-making so far this year, and there has been a lot of that, it's not accurate to include lack of picks in the analysis for that reason.

I also think that defenses are going to make continued success with this short, quick stuff harder every week. Harvin was largely neutralized as a receiver by the Lions, and despite the fact that the Lions were all over him pre-snap Ponder still went to him repeatedly even when other options were available. Ponder continues his penchant for breaking out of the pocket at the first whiff of pressure, continues his tendency to roll right and backwards when he does so, and continues to appear to make up his mind where he's going with the ball pre-snap on many plays, defense be damned. I think it's only a matter of time until one or more of these tendencies gets him in real trouble. If he's as smart as everyone seems to think he is, I'd expect him to also recognize this and begin to counter it. That throw to Avril should never happen again. As in never, ever.

One thing is for sure - the Titans have enough tape on the Vikings and Ponder now to easily stifle this offense should those tendencies remain the same. The Titans aren't a great team by any measure, but if the Lions defense can shut down Harvin and limit Ponder's passing, the Titans will be able to do it too. Hopefully Musgrave realizes this when he watches the tape and is willing to open it up a bit more and Ponder will comply by not being so eager to scramble/check down.
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

Post by Just Me »

VikingLord wrote:That throw to Avril should never happen again. As in never, ever.
I agreed with most of your post so forgive me for only repeating the small part I disagree with. I don't disagree with the fact it was a bad throw and should have been intercepted. Other than Luck (the 4 leaf clover kind, not the QB) there is no reason why it wasn't. What I disagree with is that on occasion even good veteran QBs will make those throws (the ones where you scratch your head).

If I were the QB coach I would give Ponder that same message - Never ever do that again. I think its a bit unrealistic to expect that he won't ever make those poor decisions in the future. Coach him so he doesn't make those mistakes? Sure, do the best you can, but I'd ask you to name me any QB that doesn't make an occasional throw where you scratch your head ans say, "What was he thinking?"
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

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Just Me wrote: I agreed with most of your post so forgive me for only repeating the small part I disagree with. I don't disagree with the fact it was a bad throw and should have been intercepted. Other than Luck (the 4 leaf clover kind, not the QB) there is no reason why it wasn't. What I disagree with is that on occasion even good veteran QBs will make those throws (the ones where you scratch your head).

If I were the QB coach I would give Ponder that same message - Never ever do that again. I think its a bit unrealistic to expect that he won't ever make those poor decisions in the future. Coach him so he doesn't make those mistakes? Sure, do the best you can, but I'd ask you to name me any QB that doesn't make an occasional throw where you scratch your head ans say, "What was he thinking?"
Good point. If I'm not mistaken, Brady, Brees and Roethlisberger have all thrown INTs that were returned for TDs this season. It's going to happen, even to the best.

Avril made a great play on the play in question and Loadholt and Ponder didn't. Avril blasted right past Loadholt, Ponder didn't see what was happening until too late and fortunately, the ball wasn't picked off.
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

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VikingLord wrote: Why this is being bandied around so much is puzzling to me. Yes, Ponder hasn't thrown an INT, but that's not for a lack of trying. He's thrown several balls that should have been picked, including one directly to Cliff Avril just last week. I think he's actually done that at least once in every game so far this year.

If we're going to laud Ponder for his great decision-making so far this year, and there has been a lot of that, it's not accurate to include lack of picks in the analysis for that reason.
I disagree. Ponder's not the only QB who has thrown passes that could have or should have been intercepted this season. They all do that. His zero INT stat still speaks to a QB who has been taking good care of the ball. Has there been some luck involved? Sure, but I have absolutely no doubt that there are QBs in the NFL who have thrown 4 INTs this season who could have thrown more if not for drops by opposing defenders. Heck, we know that's true because Stafford and Luck have each thrown 4 picks this season and the Vikings dropped potential interceptions against both of those QBs.
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

Post by VikingLord »

Mothman wrote: I disagree. Ponder's not the only QB who has thrown passes that could have or should have been intercepted this season. They all do that. His zero INT stat still speaks to a QB who has been taking good care of the ball. Has there been some luck involved? Sure, but I have absolutely no doubt that there are QBs in the NFL who have thrown 4 INTs this season who could have thrown more if not for drops by opposing defenders. Heck, we know that's true because Stafford and Luck have each thrown 4 picks this season and the Vikings dropped potential interceptions against both of those QBs.
Why does it matter what other QB's have done or not done when it comes to analyzing Ponder's INT totals? Sure, others could have thrown more, but the fact remains that Ponder's lack of picks so far is as much dumb luck in many cases as anything else.

What bugs me about that is so many of the pundits (national pundits who don't follow the team or watch the games) seem to think Ponder has just not made that many mistakes based on the lack of picks. I just don't think that the pick total paints a true picture of how well Ponder has "taken care of the ball" as they term it.

That isn't to say he's done a poor overall job of that, either. He *has* made a lot of solid decisions and been accurate in most cases. But... his completion percentage is trending down despite the low YPA. Those short little wingers to Harvin are going to become harder to complete, much less count on Harvin to turn them into 15-20 YAC yards. There are going to be more DE's who hang back on a rush looking for a ball to be thrown in that lane when Harvin is on their side of the field. Ponder and Musgrave are going to have to adjust, and soon, or I wouldn't be shocked to see Ponder put up a 3+ INT performance soon.
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

Post by Purple bruise »

VikingLord wrote: Why does it matter what other QB's have done or not done when it comes to analyzing Ponder's INT totals? Sure, others could have thrown more, but the fact remains that Ponder's lack of picks so far is as much dumb luck in many cases as anything else.

What bugs me about that is so many of the pundits (national pundits who don't follow the team or watch the games) seem to think Ponder has just not made that many mistakes based on the lack of picks. I just don't think that the pick total paints a true picture of how well Ponder has "taken care of the ball" as they term it.


That isn't to say he's done a poor overall job of that, either. He *has* made a lot of solid decisions and been accurate in most cases. But... his completion percentage is trending down despite the low YPA. Those short little wingers to Harvin are going to become harder to complete, much less count on Harvin to turn them into 15-20 YAC yards. There are going to be more DE's who hang back on a rush looking for a ball to be thrown in that lane when Harvin is on their side of the field. Ponder and Musgrave are going to have to adjust, and soon, or I wouldn't be shocked to see Ponder put up a 3+ INT performance soon.

A lot of interceptions are caused for a lot of different reasons. Tipped passes by defenders, wrong routes being run, passes bouncing off intended receivers, qbs being pressured and sometimes in the grasp of defenders, defensive players (now get ready for this) making great plays, qbs making bad decisions and bad throws. Call it luck if you must but this is how I explain it.
Why does this, as you say, bug you so much? You think that the pundits do not watch other games :confused: They make their living out of analyzing games and players. They certainly do not watch every game and every play but you would be mistaken to believe that they only watch maybe two games every Sunday and try to make informed decisions and comments about players and teams. I do not think that they would be employed very long without hours of watching film and studying the game and its players.

One game is not a barometer that his completion pecentage is going down.
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

Post by Just Me »

VikingLord wrote:
Why does it matter what other QB's have done or not done when it comes to analyzing Ponder's INT totals? Sure, others could have thrown more, but the fact remains that Ponder's lack of picks so far is as much dumb luck in many cases as anything else.
While that may be true, I think Jim's point is that if you discount or minimize the emphasis on the low number of interceptions (or none in Ponder's case) due to the fact that Ponder is "lucky" you have to discount that factor for everybody at the QB position. In the strictest sense, it has nothing to do with Ponder's performance, but you are wanting to discount his performance due to him being "lucky" that means you have to apply the same standard to compare him to other QBs (who Jim pointed out have stats that are skewed in their favor due to them being "lucky" also).

FWIW - I think he is doing a good job on taking care of the football, but he still is making mistakes (which I expect with a 2nd year QB) that eventually will result in an interception. That does (or will not) detract from his performance thus far.
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

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Just Me wrote:While that may be true, I think Jim's point is that if you discount or minimize the emphasis on the low number of interceptions (or none in Ponder's case) due to the fact that Ponder is "lucky" you have to discount that factor for everybody at the QB position. In the strictest sense, it has nothing to do with Ponder's performance, but you are wanting to discount his performance due to him being "lucky" that means you have to apply the same standard to compare him to other QBs (who Jim pointed out have stats that are skewed in their favor due to them being "lucky" also).
Exactly! Thank you for explaining my point better than I could. :)
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

Post by Purple bruise »

:)
Mothman wrote: Exactly! Thank you for explaining my point better than I could. :)

His last sentence is extremely looooong. :) The truth is I agree with you guys 100% :thumbsup:
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Re: 3 Reasons for Optimism & 3 Reasons to go "uh-oh"

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VikingLord wrote:That isn't to say he's done a poor overall job of that, either. He *has* made a lot of solid decisions and been accurate in most cases. But... his completion percentage is trending down despite the low YPA.
I think some of that is due to his increased willingness to throw the ball away. His completion percentage is trending down but he was sacked 6 times in the first two games and just twice in the last two. He's faced better defenses the past two weeks than he did in the first two as well.
Those short little wingers to Harvin are going to become harder to complete, much less count on Harvin to turn them into 15-20 YAC yards. There are going to be more DE's who hang back on a rush looking for a ball to be thrown in that lane when Harvin is on their side of the field. Ponder and Musgrave are going to have to adjust, and soon, or I wouldn't be shocked to see Ponder put up a 3+ INT performance soon.
I think they'll adjust, although they aren't going to abandon those plays altogether. They were clearly making an effort to get the ball up the field to Simpson last week in his debut and I suspect we'll see more of that, and more passes to the TEs and backs, in the coming weeks. If they can find some success doing those things, it will make it harder for teams to take Harvin away.

I may be in the minority but I think Musgrave is attempting a balancing act so far this season. He's trying to use a short passing game to hide shortcomings in the offense, not just the QB. The approach helps minimize mistakes as Ponder develops but, just as importantly, it covers up for some inadequacies that still exist up front and it's helped the offense move the ball through the first 3 games despite a lack of downfield speed. I know the general feeling is the o-line has improved and Kalil is definitely an upgrade at LT but if the Indy game was any indication, the line may still not be ready to block too many slow-developing pass plays.

The Vikes have to mix it up more in the passing game and they probably need to do that this week if they want to move to 4-1. However, if/when they do, don't be surprised if they do so cautiously. Otherwise, I think we'll see Ponder getting hit more and we'll see more turnovers too. As the passing game develops and improves, I suspect the Vikings are going to lean on their running game and defense as much as possible to keep games close and try to make enough plays in the passing game (and on special teams) to win. It's not the high-flying approach a lot of people want to see but it may be a smart approach for this particular team at this time. It's worked in 3 of 4 games anyway... the key is not to get so conservative that it becomes detrimental. They definitely can't allow their average yards per pass play to continue declining. It needs to start trending upward again.
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