What does Frazier need to do

[Mothman]

But don't almost all new head coaches inherit a mess?

It's not uncommon, which is one of the reasons they're often given 3+ years to show what they can do. When a coach inherits an aging team with no incumbent starting QB, I think he deserves the time to turn it around.

That's a really interesting point. I wonder how much authority Rick has in this instance. Could Rick, not Wilf be making the call?

Does bringing in a new HC help or hurt Rick's chances of succeeding in the long term? It could be really telling if Frazier is kept a third year because we for once have a real GM.

Spielman would probably have a voice in any decision regarding a coaching change but when he was promoted the Wilfs made it clear that they still held hiring and firing power over the head coach. The following was published in the Star Tribune about a week ago and it talks quite a bit about the relationship between Spielman and Frazier and how they are going about trying to rebuild the team:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... 52626.html

If anyone missed that article, it's definitely worth reading.

[mansquatch]

I picked record doesn’t matter. Lots of good stuff in this thread, too much to just quote one thing.

I agree that with the blown leads, injuries in the secondary, lack of turnovers, anemic offense under McFlabb, etc they were a lot closer to 8-8 than it seemed. In my view, it is hard to not cut Frasier some slack over the fact that that he has endured 2 seasons with a concentration of injuries/ legal troubles in the secondary, resulting in a bunch of 3rd/4th string players starting. That is not a recipe for success in the NFL no matter who is the coach.

IMO the real measuring stick of improvement will be if they can beat a divisional opponent. The non-conference schedule is soft enough that we should be able to get some wins there. The division is what separates us from playoff contention at this point, and is a strong measuring stick of just how competitive we are.

I think Frasier will keep his job at 6-10 or better. I think they should be 7-9 or better.

[Mothman]

I chose record doesn't matter, but it's not as if Frazier's done all he can and its on the team to improve not him. The Vikings as a whole need to show some sort of improvement to justify Frazier's continued presence. Because the bar is now at 3-13, even 5-11 can be interpreted as improvement in the Vikings eyes. And even beyond the record there isn't any pressure for Frazier to win now, get the playoffs or anything like that. As long as the Wilfs like the way Frazier runs things and agree with his ideas on how things should be, then he is safe. It would take a lot for him to be fired this season, like an 0-8 start, or less than 4 wins overall, or a team that looks strong, but odd coaching decisions cost them 4 December losses in a row or something.

If anything Ponder is under more scrutiny than Frazier this season in my opinion. I think things changed around the league since Russell Wilson was named the starter in Seattle (and I personally think he'll do well) and Matt Flynn could very well be available next season. I'm not saying he's MVP or nothin, but he is someone that many teams might keep in the backs of their minds as the QB shuffle runs throughout the league.

I don't quite understand how Wilson getting the starting job in Seattle changes anything around the league but I agree that Ponder will be under intense scrutiny. Unproven starting QBs always are...

[Mothman]

Thanks for the info. For whatever reason, I've been assuming that the third year is an option. I have no idea where I got that idea from. If anyone has more info on it, please do post it

I did some more searching this morning and I can't find anything concrete about the third year of Frazier's contract being an optional year. That doesn't mean it isn't but everything I've found from reliable sources has just said it's a 3 year deal.

[mansquatch]

This year has always been about Ponder. There are plenty of other distractions like AP’s knee and the state of the secondary, but does anyone really think our win loss record will be nearly as influenced by these factors as it will by the play of our QB? Not a chance.

[Mothman]

This year has always been about Ponder. There are plenty of other distractions like AP’s knee and the state of the secondary, but does anyone really think our win loss record will be nearly as influenced by these factors as it will by the play of our QB? Not a chance.

Ponder's development is obviously of the utmost importance in the big picture but I definitely disagree with the idea that his performance will be the single biggest factor in determining the Vikes W/L record. Since football isn't just played by the offense, the performance of the defense, particularly the pass defense, could have just as much impact on the Vikes W/L record as Ponder will. It certainly had an impact last year and as another example, think back to the the 2004 Vikes. Daunte Culpepper led the NFL in passing yards, threw and ran for a total of 41 TDs and had 11 INTs. He had an MVP-like season, the Vikings were 4th in the league in offense, 6th in scoring and 2nd in passing but they finished with an 8-8 record, largely because they were an average rushing team with one of the worst defenses in the league. They were allowing almost as many points as they were scoring and even great QB play wasn't enough to raise them above .500. If that team had a better defense, they might have won 3-5 more games.

I'm a firm believer that the performance of players around a QB can have as much or more impact than a QB himself so this year IS about Ponder's development but the rest of the team will have as much to say about the W/L record as he will.

[indianation65]

What does Frazier "need" to do? I'd say he needs to "not" do what he already has, and that is to continually play conservative football. If man accepts and expects mediocrity, that is what he will get. I expect and demand a successful team, despite who is currently on the roster. These cats have been playing/running/catching/tackling since age 5. Why is it that there are x number of receivers on a team and only 1 or 2 who can catch, or 3 quarterbacks and none who can successfully pocket pass and be an effective general? I say they can, with the line successfully blocking more times then not, the Vikings can and should be successful. As to the topic at hand, coaches who play textbook conservative football have historically been winners, but when a team is building through youngsters, try and find out what they can do. Take risks Coach Frazier, test them at all costs! No one expects more then 6 wins anyway, so prove them wrong. However, as M. Corleone said about Vincent, "You are what you are." I'm afraid we've already seen what Coach F. is, a boring, conservative coach, more afraid of losing a job then losing a game. I hope I'm wrong this year. As a life-long Vikings fan I expect a playoff birth and success thereafter...as usual, I may stand alone...the Nation.

...wisdom

[vikeinmontana]

What does Frazier "need" to do? I'd say he needs to "not" do what he already has, and that is to continually play conservative football. If man accepts and expects mediocrity, that is what he will get. I expect and demand a successful team, despite who is currently on the roster. These cats have been playing/running/catching/tackling since age 5. Why is it that there are x number of receivers on a team and only 1 or 2 who can catch, or 3 quarterbacks and none who can successfully pocket pass and be an effective general? I say they can, with the line successfully blocking more times then not, the Vikings can and should be successful. As to the topic at hand, coaches who play textbook conservative football have historically been winners, but when a team is building through youngsters, try and find out what they can do. Take risks Coach Frazier, test them at all costs! No one expects more then 6 wins anyway, so prove them wrong. However, as M. Corleone said about Vincent, "You are what you are." I'm afraid we've already seen what Coach F. is, a boring, conservative coach, more afraid of losing a job then losing a game. I hope I'm wrong this year. As a life-long Vikings fan I expect a playoff birth and success thereafter...as usual, I may stand alone...the Nation.

...wisdom

i'm sorry, but that is a VERY simplistic way to look at sports. if your theory held any water there would be no need for sports as there would never be any winners because all teams would be identical and no one would be better because after all.....they have all been passing, running, catching etc. since they were tiny. does that mean that ponder is the next joe montana? only makes sense right? and we KNOW he'll be much better than rodgers because he didn't even start football till high school.....

here's the thing. yes...they are ALL pretty damn good because they are in the nfl. that is why it irks me when i hear fans bash players because no one here could even sniff a practice squad. these are great athletes competing with great athletes. but that doesn't make them the same. and there are many teams right now with MUCH better talent and MUCH better coaching than the vikes.

does this mean if we go 0-16 we should all be happy and ho-hum? of course not. but it is just as unrealistic to say that we won't accept anything but a championship. i guess we can accept nothing but their best which i think is fair. however....you should be warned....our best is going to look a LOT differnt than the packers best or the patriots best......

[losperros]

here's the thing. yes...they are ALL pretty damn good because they are in the nfl. that is why it irks me when i hear fans bash players because no one here could even sniff a practice squad. these are great athletes competing with great athletes.

Well said and very true.

[indianation65]

No need to apologize Mr. Montana for disagreeing. We all opine from different sides of the same room. I did not say or expect Ponder to be the next Montana, (the best ever in my opinion) but these cats are all NFL caliber players, so I stated that I expect them to be "competitive." There is no reason they can't be. Again, every year a supposed bad team turns out great, why not the Vikes? If only the coaching staff will take risks, be aggressive and try to win games, not survive a season building with youngsters. I am not ragging on Minnesota's roster, I am encouraged and believing in the possibility of competing for a winning season and possible playoffs. Think and believe, inside and outside of the locker room, and it can happen. It really does work in all avenues of life. Lofty ambitions and cloudy visions from IN65, so what! C'mon Vikings, wins always taste better.

Addendum: I listened to some local Dallas talk yesterday about Manning "carving" up the SF defense. As I watched the replay of the game I saw pass after pass of 10 yards and in, 10 yards and out, hit the guy in the numbers, move down the field. How hard can it be to do this more times then not? Ponder and his receivers can with an aggressive game plan, and Peterson scaring the defenders play after play, yes, I wonder why Vikings fans expect 6 games and under as tops? I don't! With the right motivation and focus, a young team can be successful. C'mon coaches! The Thunder did it in b-ball...so can the Vikings!

...wisdom through high hopes, practical or not!

[HardcoreVikesFan]

I hate to be blunt, but I cannot help but see Frazier as another conservative coach that isn't going to take us anywhere. My mind has been made up thus far and I really don't see Frazier proving me wrong this season.

[indianation65]

Mr. HVF,
Unfortunately, I concur...

...wisdom

[dead_poet]

I hate to be blunt, but I cannot help but see Frazier as another conservative coach.

Out of curiosity, what has led you to believe Frazier is a "conservative" coach?

[Mothman]

Out of curiosity, what has led you to believe Frazier is a "conservative" coach?

I was going to ask the same thing.

[mansquatch]

I think it is premature to get after Frasier, but that is just my opinion. At this point Frasier's biggest errors have been along the lines of having faith in guys with whom he had a prior history and then those guys letting him down. McNabb being the most obvious and Singletary being the current iteration.

I think the GM change will help offset/mitigate the above issue. Aside from that, IMO the real measuring stick will be the record this year. At that point I think Frasier will have run out of goodwill.

Again just my opinion.