Cuts thread

[John_Viveiros]

As far as Webb goes...I think he's a decent option for back up....but he's more of a #3 IMO. His athleticism skews how he's viewed and it really shouldn't, because he's glaringly limited in spite of that athleticism. He honestly hasn't proven to me that he's that much of a football player yet.

Very interesting hyperbole. But let's talk something factual. You are saying that you can think of about 80 better NFL QB's than Webb. All 32 starters, all 32 backups, and half the #3's.

You might get to 30 or 40. But he's way better than most #2's in the league, IMHO. The guy is a .500 QB with a .273 team after all. I don't think anyone can question that, in the past, he gave us a better chance to win than Ponder did. I'm sure you discount his mobility, but the guy is almost impossible to sack. And if you do commit to pressuring him, you give up huge yardage with his scrambles.

[mosscarter]

the problem with this entire discussion is the huge "if" with ponder. aside from one showing, his preseason was nothing different from where he left of last season. i believe he was 5/9 passing against san fran, with one long throw. his last start he was 9/16 for 115 yds, and one int. i mean seriously, how is this a sign of progression? i truly expect him to implode this season, and everyone will understand by about week 4 why. by the time they get simpson back they will be 0-3, and it won't even matter.

[dead_poet]

aside from one showing, his preseason was nothing different from where he left of last season. i believe he was 5/9 passing against san fran, with one long throw. his last start he was 9/16 for 115 yds, and one int. i mean seriously, how is this a sign of progression? i truly expect him to implode this season, and everyone will understand by about week 4 why. by the time they get simpson back they will be 0-3, and it won't even matter.

Are you kidding?

4/9 for 89 yards in a couple quarters of a PRESEASON game and you're unimpressed? That's fine if it's your opinion but every source close to the team (beat writers included) have come out saying how much he's grown in one year and he looks MUCH better from last year at this time. But clearly you see something they don't and are closer to the team and Ponder in order to make such an informed decision.

And you're discounting one of his positive preseason showings....why? Oh, that's right. Because you don't like him and it doesn't support your point that he's horrible. Even debating preseason stats is a little ridiculous unless he was just abysmal (which he wasn't, even though the entire offense looked bad the last preseason game).

How about some perspective:

Aaron Rodgers 2012 preseason stats:

21/43 (48%)
234 yards
1 TD
2 INTs
53.8 QBR

Christian Ponder 2012 preseason stats:

23/38 (60%)
331 yards
1 TD
1 INT
86.6 QBR

Clearly Aaron Rodgers is regressing and won't even be a top-10 QB this season.

How about we watch him actually complete a couple of real games before calling him a failure and demanding his replacement?

[VikingLord]

I know we're just splitting hairs here but I have to disagree. In my mind, Webb would be an outstanding vertical threat and fits that mold so much better than being relegated to a possession receiver. You just don't see many "possession receivers" with that kind of speed and overall athletic ability.

Webb could play the vertical role provided he can catch the ball over his shoulder while running at full speed. However, lots of "possession" receivers are adept at going vertical when the defense permits. Carter got deep his fair share, as did Sidney Rice and even Jerry Rice. So I'm not saying that Webb would solely run short routes. I'm just saying his attributes indicate he'd be likely to present matchup issues in a possession role. I don't think a lot of defenses have corners who would win 1x1 isolation matches with Webb provided he can translate his attributes into the receiver role.

I can't say the same for Michael Jenkins. Jenkins is a classic "possession" receiver, albeit one who doesn't create matchup problems for most defenses. I doubt any defensive coordinators would feel the need to pay particular attention to Jenkins in any situation. That's not to say Jenkins sucks per se - he's just not physically unique in the role.

The whole discussion is moot, though, because Musgrave and Frazier continue to slot Webb as a QB. What a waste IMHO, especially for a team lacking in the WR department.

[VikingLord]

the problem with this entire discussion is the huge "if" with ponder. aside from one showing, his preseason was nothing different from where he left of last season. i believe he was 5/9 passing against san fran, with one long throw. his last start he was 9/16 for 115 yds, and one int. i mean seriously, how is this a sign of progression? i truly expect him to implode this season, and everyone will understand by about week 4 why. by the time they get simpson back they will be 0-3, and it won't even matter.

I'm not convinced the team will be 0-3 by the time Simpson gets on the field. They play a pretty poor Jags team at home in a winnable game. They then go on the road against a team that had as much, if not more, overall turnover than the Vikings did this offseason. The Colts may have Andrew Luck and a bright future, but they are more unsettled at just about every other offensive skill position than the Vikings, their offensive line is weaker than the Vikings, and their defense has converted from a classic 4x3 to a 3x4 without changing the key personnel in much of that group of players. The Colts game is definitely winnable.

Things start to look worse after that with the next two against solid playoff teams from last year, but the Vikes could easily be 2-1 when Simpson comes back.

[The Breeze]

Very interesting hyperbole. But let's talk something factual. You are saying that you can think of about 80 better NFL QB's than Webb. All 32 starters, all 32 backups, and half the #3's.

You might get to 30 or 40. But he's way better than most #2's in the league, IMHO. The guy is a .500 QB with a .273 team after all. I don't think anyone can question that, in the past, he gave us a better chance to win than Ponder did. I'm sure you discount his mobility, but the guy is almost impossible to sack. And if you do commit to pressuring him, you give up huge yardage with his scrambles.

no, i don't think there are 80 guys better than him. i think the position suffers from a general lack of competence overall(league wide). I think he is a decent number #2.....but he's no don strock, danny white or a hostetler......or several other backup types i'd rather have. There is a premium on QBs and the pool is very shallow these days. Seems like there are great QBs and crap ones without much in between.

I think Webb brings a lot of speed and strength to the table and I don't discount his mobility. I'm just saying that his mobility is his biggest asset IMO....and that his skill set, as it is, is what keeps him as a back up QB. If I had my druthers, i'd rather have a more seasoned backup. Someone who has more NFL knowledge. But coming off a 3-13 campaign?...no biggie. As it stands right now, Webb has shown that he can use his speed to make big plays and extend drives. That's great...but it's not a winning formula if he can't figure out where and when to pass the ball with some accuracy.

What happens if Ponder just blows it up this season? He gets in synch with Harvin and Rudolph...Simpson comes in and the offense starts to click and becomes formidable with AD returning. Then Ponder gets hurt...what happens? Instead of plugging a system effective QB into the driver seat of a well tuned offense...you have to change the whole offense to cater to Webb's strengths and avoid his deficiencies. I don't think that is the best option....but it's the only one we have. And maybe Webb would b e great with more playing time. I understand that POV and don't dismiss it.

I like Webb...i just don't understand how he gets better at the things he needs to without starting and playing lots of minutes. I hope it happens and, like a couple of others have posted, I think this is the year that he has to make some strides in order to keep his position...but I also don't want to see him play cause it means either Ponder gets hurt or he's stinking it up.

If Ponder winds up being a bust I don't believe Webb will get a chance to be a starter either, I think they'd draft another guy....I'd like to see it though. He is a very intriguing talent.

But it's all just like..... my opinion, man.

[VikingLord]

Very interesting hyperbole. But let's talk something factual. You are saying that you can think of about 80 better NFL QB's than Webb. All 32 starters, all 32 backups, and half the #3's.

You might get to 30 or 40. But he's way better than most #2's in the league, IMHO. The guy is a .500 QB with a .273 team after all. I don't think anyone can question that, in the past, he gave us a better chance to win than Ponder did. I'm sure you discount his mobility, but the guy is almost impossible to sack. And if you do commit to pressuring him, you give up huge yardage with his scrambles.

Let defenses gameplan to stop Webb and let's see how effective he is as a scrambler. I don't put Webb in the same class as Vick when it comes to being a dynamic runner, and even Vick was eventually largely corralled by defenses. Vick had to develop as a passer before he became effective again in Philly, and even there, his penchant for relying on his legs has led to a fairly high rate of injuries.

I don't think Webb would honestly be able to maintain his .500 average for long if he were called upon to be the starting QB. Knowing Webb's tendencies and limitations in reading defenses, I have no doubt that most teams would shut him down with increasing ease as time went on. I suspect given the way Ponder takes abuse it's only a matter of time before we get to see this borne out on the field.

[John_Viveiros]

I don't think Webb would honestly be able to maintain his .500 average for long if he were called upon to be the starting QB. Knowing Webb's tendencies and limitations in reading defenses, I have no doubt that most teams would shut him down with increasing ease as time went on. I suspect given the way Ponder takes abuse it's only a matter of time before we get to see this borne out on the field.

I agree to a point. But generally how defenses have reacted to Webb is by slowing down their rush, they stop blitzing, and play more zone. Can we somehow coach the kid (something like six meaningful games of experience) to take advantage of how limited the defenses get when they play him (they quickly learn to not blitz the crap out of him, like they do to most young QB's)? How well could he play (or Ponder) if the Vikes would tamp down their tendency to run on first and second down, and then force the QB to convert a long third down play when the defense knows what is coming?

And you also get into the question of whether Webb (or Ponder, or Sage) would be a .500 QB if he had the 49'ers defense playing behind them...

[Purple bruise]

Are you kidding?

4/9 for 89 yards in a couple quarters of a PRESEASON game and you're unimpressed? That's fine if it's your opinion but every source close to the team (beat writers included) have come out saying how much he's grown in one year and he looks MUCH better from last year at this time. But clearly you see something they don't and are closer to the team and Ponder in order to make such an informed decision.

And you're discounting one of his positive preseason showings....why? Oh, that's right. Because you don't like him and it doesn't support your point that he's horrible. Even debating preseason stats is a little ridiculous unless he was just abysmal (which he wasn't, even though the entire offense looked bad the last preseason game).

How about some perspective:

Aaron Rodgers 2012 preseason stats:

21/43 (48%)
234 yards
1 TD
2 INTs
53.8 QBR

Christian Ponder 2012 preseason stats:

23/38 (60%)
331 yards
1 TD
1 INT
86.6 QBR

Clearly Aaron Rodgers is regressing and won't even be a top-10 QB this season.

How about we watch him actually complete a couple of real games before calling him a failure and demanding his replacement?

You nailed that DP. There are at least three "fans" on this board that absolutely can't stand Ponder for whatever reason. I am pretty sure, from what I have gleaned from there bashing posts, that they will be deeply disapointed if he does well. This for me anyway, is truly unexplainable
I am not sure if you watched the video I posted on the Fran Tarkenton interview, " Don't just take my word for it, Fran and I agree" but it was spot on and if Tarkenton, the beat writers, coaching staff, and most importantly his fellow teamates believe in him. I have total confidence in his abilities, leadership, intelligence, work ethic which are his fortes'.

[S197]

There are at least three "fans" on this board that absolutely can't stand Ponder for whatever reason. I am pretty sure, from what I have gleaned from there bashing posts, that they will be deeply disapointed if he does well. This for me anyway, is truly unexplainable

Good fan/bad fan posts are against board policy. This includes the insinuation you're making with your quotations. I don't mean to come off as harsh, it's just that we've been down this road before and I'd rather nip it in the bud before anything escalates. Thanks.

[S197]

A couple posts were removed. Lets get back on topic.

[Mothman]

A couple posts were removed. Lets get back on topic.

That's fine with me... the topic at the moment is Christian Ponder and I think at this point, if any of us are being honest, the objective view of Ponder is that none of us know yet if he'll be good or bad, successful or unsuccessful as an NFL QB. There's no shortage of opinions and hunches but even his stats reflect a degree of uncertainty. For every negative play, there's a positive play and vice versa. It's obviously hard to be patent when the Vikings so desperately need a franchise QB and everybody has (and is entitled to) an opinion but the bottom line is we have no choice but to be patient. The Vikes have made their decision. Ponder is the QB for the foreseeable future so we might as well sit back, watch and see if he develops into a good player or gradually plays himself out of a starting job.

[mosscarter]

thanks for comparing the pre-season stats of the best qb in football versus ponder. that was a real eye opener for me, and just for the record, how many td's did rodgers have last year during the regular season (when it actually counts), 45? be sure and keep me posted as to how they both do in the regular season too, because i was so enthralled by your earlier comparison. the truth is, we are all going to see what ponder has real quick, and at this point i really do hope he succeeds. its just that i'm not convinced whatsoever.

[PurpleKoolaid]

This year Ponder at least has some targets, and a better Oline. He should excel. If he doesnt, we find a new QB and stop wasting time. I hope he does well, its been along time since we had a consistant young QB. And for the love of god, we need to let Webb go.

[VikingLord]

I agree to a point. But generally how defenses have reacted to Webb is by slowing down their rush, they stop blitzing, and play more zone. Can we somehow coach the kid (something like six meaningful games of experience) to take advantage of how limited the defenses get when they play him (they quickly learn to not blitz the crap out of him, like they do to most young QB's)? How well could he play (or Ponder) if the Vikes would tamp down their tendency to run on first and second down, and then force the QB to convert a long third down play when the defense knows what is coming?

And you also get into the question of whether Webb (or Ponder, or Sage) would be a .500 QB if he had the 49'ers defense playing behind them...

Vick learned to become more of a pass-first running QB and had some success with that, but it's pretty hard to coach out tendencies that have become ingrained over years. It takes tremendous effort on the part of both the coach and the player, and the question becomes is it worth all that effort, especially when the result is still likely to be less than optimal?

As you point out, some of it is scheme, and I agree that both Webb and Ponder would be in better positions if they faced fewer obvious passing situations. Then again, if you are cringing at what your QB's are likely to do when faced with obvious passing situations, that speaks volumes about who you have at QB IMHO. The scheme needs to maximize the talent available to the coaches, and if that means running on 1st and 2nd the majority of the time, so be it. If that is what the scheme calls for and creates, then the coaches need to find the QB who can function well in 3rd-and-longs and under pressure. And if that scheme is silly and the outcome undesirable, then the GM needs to find a new coach.

Defenses might change a QB's record in a positive or negative way, but the QB is still himself with his strengths and limitations. Witness Alex Smith. Smith is pretty much still the same limited player he was when the 49ers drafted him, but the defense covers up his shortcomings and allows him to get away with being limited. It doesn't mean he's a better player.

I think we're going to be seeing a lot of Webb this season. Ponder needs to stay healthy, but with his penchant for taking contact that's going to be hard for him.