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 Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first? 
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Post Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first?
Nice article on Frazier, the anti-Childress.

Leslie Frazier is universally respected around the NFL, but wins and losses decide a coach's fate.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... ml?refer=y

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Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:43 am
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Post Re: Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first?
Ask Tony Dungy that question :)

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Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:06 am
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Post Re: Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first?
Any team that finishes first has to have good coaching, good players, and some luck.

So, yes, a nice coach can finish first, but he needs the other requirements as well.


Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:48 am
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Post Re: Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first?
dead_poet wrote:
Nice article on Frazier, the anti-Childress.

Leslie Frazier is universally respected around the NFL, but wins and losses decide a coach's fate.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... ml?refer=y


Thanks for the link. It was a good read, although I could have done without the repeat of last season's second guessing.

I liked this part:

Quote:
Still, neither the owners nor the new GM seem to be battling itchy trigger fingers. Publicly, they have promised patience, refusing to set a victory total Frazier needs to reach to be deemed safe.

More than anything, they say, Frazier will be judged on his ability to keep this team competitive and invested in developing under the current staff's plans.


That's the right approach. The fanbase is likely to be impatient but in this situation, if Frazier and his staff can field a competitive team, improve on last year's record and get the team to show genuine progress, I think that should be enough to bring him back. When you consider the approach described in that article, the potential benefits of continuity at the HC position should be clear. Childress left a big rebuilding project behind him and I don't believe any coach was likely to come in to Minnesota and get the team back into the postseason in just two years. Frazier has the temperament and experience for the job. Now that they've hired him to do it, he needs an adequate amount of time to get it done.

I wonder: if they're encouraged by his performance this season, will they have him coach a third season in the final year of his current contract or will they give him an extension?


Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first?
GBFavreFan wrote:
Just Me wrote:
Ask Tony Dungy that question :)


Not to bash Dungy since I think he is a good coach, but his path to the SB wasn't exactly the one that should've been. He built Tampa Bay into a real powerhouse, but couldn't get them over the hump. Jon Gruden came in and in one year did what Dungy couldn't year after year. Then when he moved to the Colts it still took forever no matter how good their team was, and 2006 Colts weren't exactly a dominant unit, it was gained through a defense that finally showed up for a month, a dropped pass by Reche Caldwell for New England in the AFC title game, and most importantly, the Colts had the luxury of playing Lovie Smith's Bears in one of the most poorly coached Super Bowls of all time, lead by one of the worst QB performances in Rex Grossman in one of the most boneheaded coaching decisions of all time in living Grossman in there pick after pick instead of putting in eventual starter Kyle Orton.


I see your point. It did take Dungy a long time to win the Super Bowl. That could be due to his own shortcomings as a HC but it could also be viewed as an example of just how hard it is to win even one NFL title. It took Bill Cowher 14 seasons to do it. It took Tom Landry 12 seasons to win one and it took John Madden 8 seasons. Sometimes, I think even a coach with the right stuff has to have just the right combination of personnel and good fortune to win a championship.


Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:31 pm
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Post Re: Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first?
Mothman wrote:
GBFavreFan wrote:
Just Me wrote:
Ask Tony Dungy that question :)


Not to bash Dungy since I think he is a good coach, but his path to the SB wasn't exactly the one that should've been. He built Tampa Bay into a real powerhouse, but couldn't get them over the hump. Jon Gruden came in and in one year did what Dungy couldn't year after year. Then when he moved to the Colts it still took forever no matter how good their team was, and 2006 Colts weren't exactly a dominant unit, it was gained through a defense that finally showed up for a month, a dropped pass by Reche Caldwell for New England in the AFC title game, and most importantly, the Colts had the luxury of playing Lovie Smith's Bears in one of the most poorly coached Super Bowls of all time, lead by one of the worst QB performances in Rex Grossman in one of the most boneheaded coaching decisions of all time in living Grossman in there pick after pick instead of putting in eventual starter Kyle Orton.


I see your point. It did take Dungy a long time to win the Super Bowl. That could be due to his own shortcomings as a HC but it could also be viewed as an example of just how hard it is to win even one NFL title. It took Bill Cowher 14 seasons to do it. It took Tom Landry 12 seasons to win one and it took John Madden 8 seasons. Sometimes, I think even a coach with the right stuff has to have just the right combination of personnel and good fortune to win a championship.



good call mentioning Bill Cowher. It does show that it is hard to win a Super Bowl no matter how good your teams are.

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Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:48 pm
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Post Re: Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first?
Mothman wrote:
GBFavreFan wrote:
Just Me wrote:
Ask Tony Dungy that question :)


Not to bash Dungy since I think he is a good coach, but his path to the SB wasn't exactly the one that should've been. He built Tampa Bay into a real powerhouse, but couldn't get them over the hump. Jon Gruden came in and in one year did what Dungy couldn't year after year. Then when he moved to the Colts it still took forever no matter how good their team was, and 2006 Colts weren't exactly a dominant unit, it was gained through a defense that finally showed up for a month, a dropped pass by Reche Caldwell for New England in the AFC title game, and most importantly, the Colts had the luxury of playing Lovie Smith's Bears in one of the most poorly coached Super Bowls of all time, lead by one of the worst QB performances in Rex Grossman in one of the most boneheaded coaching decisions of all time in living Grossman in there pick after pick instead of putting in eventual starter Kyle Orton.


I see your point. It did take Dungy a long time to win the Super Bowl. That could be due to his own shortcomings as a HC but it could also be viewed as an example of just how hard it is to win even one NFL title. It took Bill Cowher 14 seasons to do it. It took Tom Landry 12 seasons to win one and it took John Madden 8 seasons. Sometimes, I think even a coach with the right stuff has to have just the right combination of personnel and good fortune to win a championship.


Bud Grant never did it and I don't think anyone would doubt his coaching credentials or that he is a nice guy.

A lot of things need to converge for a team to get to and win a Superbowl. It's not just the right coach at the right time, or the right QB, or any single factor, and sometimes even with all of the individual factors aligned perfectly the other guys are just better that day. I think that's what happened to Grant and the Vikings in 2 of their 4 Superbowl losses, but that failure to win should in no way diminish how the coach is remembered.


Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:09 pm
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Post Re: Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first?
VikingLord wrote:
Bud Grant never did it and I don't think anyone would doubt his coaching credentials or that he is a nice guy.


Actually, I think that adds fuel to the question (I really admire Bud Grant - BTW) in that Bud Grant was a "nice guy" and never won the Super Bowl.

I do disagree with the previous poster that suggested Dungy "should have won" earlier in TB (my paraphrase). Jim posted some good examples of how it doesn't always work that way.

As far as Gruden goes: (Disagree with me as you will) he took the team that Dungy built and profited from Dungy's previous team to win a Super Bowl that year. i think Dungy would have won the SB if TB hadn't gotten rid of him. After that, what had Gruden accomplished? He went 7–9 and 5–11 the next two years. The issue is debatable, and I realize I'm probably in the minority in my opinion, but I still think Gruden was "overrated" in his contribution to TB. I will acknowledge he did perform well when he was coaching the Raiders, so I don't think he was a bad coach, I just don't think he was any better than Dungy, and I don't believe that TB wouldn't have won a SB had Dungy stayed at the helm.

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Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:46 pm
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Post Re: Leslie Frazier: Can a nice guy finish first?
dead_poet wrote:
Nice article on Frazier, the anti-Childress.

Leslie Frazier is universally respected around the NFL, but wins and losses decide a coach's fate.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... ml?refer=y


Yeah, he can. I think Frazier will win...eventually. If they stay patient with him through the whole rebuild. If they don't, I think they'll look at either Musgrave or Alan Williams to take over, maybe check and see if Billick wants to make a glorious return.

Vikings fans keep dogging on Frazier all the time because they think he should have enough to have at least a respectable record, but everyone knew this team was showing its age back in 2009. The key players on the team were past 30 and were slowing down. Since then, the organization hasn't really been notably active in free agency and has focused heavily on the draft. That route takes a lot of time for any team. They didn't really have tremendous drafts for a few years before Frazier took over, either. The fans aren't used to the team being as bad as that, but if you're going to build a winner through the draft, you probably want the best picks you can get.

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