Confidence in Christian Part II

[Just Me]

Because it wasn't just "good news". It was a come from behind victory in part because of Ponder himself. Four drives without a score. Four drives where he looked completely lost and made a number of bonehead decisions. If you're going to discuss the performance can we at least be honest about it? There were good parts, and bad parts. I'm acknowledging both...that is "diminishing the performance"?

I'll agree with you that Ponder played poorly (and well) depending on what part of the game you looked at. If this topic was overloaded with posts about ho Ponder was the answer, and we've finally found our franchise QB, I'd be posting alot more on the other side of this debate. To wit: It was ONE GAME. Let's not crown him just yet as there is still alot of football to be played this season. I get that. I really do.

The problem is: I don't see anyone saying that. What I see (admittedly through my perspective of the world, so its entirely possible that my interpretation is flawed) are people who are seemingly reluctant to acknowledge that Ponder just might be (not saying he is, or for sure will be - just entertaining the thought that he is showing improvement and if that trend continues he might be) our answer at quarterback. Some of us are willing to accept the fact that he had a sub-par first half and then went on not only to redeem himself in the second half, but to do so convincingly enough to have the game (when taken in it's entirety) be a pretty good performance.

Keep in mind we are not arguing that his (hypthetical) 40.2 Passer Rating in the first half lowered his overall rating to 78.2 for the game. Why if we (hypothetical again) take the 2nd half alone (without consideration of the first half, he was a 102.2. We'll just ignore the first half because it doesn't fit with what we want to see. No one is doing that. His PR for the GAME was 105 and change. That means that if I evaluate his performance in its entirety, he had a decent game. We aren't ignoring the first half of the game (Heck that is why his PR probably wasn't upwards of 120, right?) but neither are we saying one half "trumps" the other.

Yes, I freely acknowledge Ponder was not facing the 85 Bears defense, but this wasn't the 81 Colts either. Frankly, since all NFL teams move a little bit (or alot) from year-to-year, it could be either the best (or the worst) defense we will face this year. The jury is still out.

Lastly, I disagree that the come-from-behind victory was because of Ponder himself (unless he put on #20 during a time-out and was playing CB with about 20 seconds left in the game. The Vikings were ahead up to that point, and only a touchdown was going to save the Jaguars from defeat...)

[Demi]

I just can't comprehend why you dislike this kid so much.

Because I want to see the Vikings win a super bowl. And I don't believe he has the skill set to accomplish that regardless of what is around him. On the field, the sideline, or the front office. Game managing west coast offense quarterbacks are a thing of the past. Even guys like Rodgers have a very good to great down field passing ability. And run when there aren't any other options, not as soon as it's an option. Elite quarterbacks that can make plays win games in todays NFL. And to me Ponder's ceiling isn't an elite quarterback. At the very best we're getting Tony Romo. At the worst, Tarvaris Jackson. Again that's my opinion. And I think the team is hurting itself spending the time it's going to take to develop him regardless of whether or not he never reaches the highest level he's physically capable of.

And I can do without any more of your comments directed at me about how I love him and want to have his children.

And I can do without any more of your comments directed atme about how I hate him and want to see him fail.

just for my own information could you put into column A pluses (if any) about Ponder and column B negatives

Right now? A His mobility. His accuracy under about 15 yards, velocity on shorter passes.
B Runs too soon. Plays scared a lot of the time. Stares down receivers. Accuracy past 15 yards. Arm strength past 25~ yards. Ability to throw the ball into a small window. Struggles through his reads. Takes too many hits. Size. Needs help from receivers, can't really make plays on his own.

[J. Kapp 11]

B Runs too soon. Plays scared a lot of the time. Stares down receivers. Accuracy past 15 yards. Arm strength past 25~ yards. Ability to throw the ball into a small window. Struggles through his reads. Takes too many hits. Size. Needs help from receivers, can't really make plays on his own.

See, this is where your obvious bias against this kid destroys what little credibility you may have had in talking about him.

As it pertains to Sunday's game, every single issue you list here is patently false. Especially the "stares down receivers," "accuracy past 15 yards," and "struggling through reads" baloney. Every throw after his first seven was a good throw. He looked off defenders. He threw accurately on the 29-yard pass to Rudolph after looking off the safety, and the 26-yard completion to Aromashodu in the game-tying drive (and that throw had plenty of velocity). Hell, even the "takes too many hits" criticism doesn't apply to Sunday's game. Not in the least.

At best, you're living in last season. At worst, you're presenting a thoughtless litany of issues that apply to any generic bad quarterback.

[CalVike]

He did a pretty good job with a weak set of targets, hitting Aromashadu & Jenkins at key moments. Just saying. Tremendous upside having a promising young QB with great poise. Go Vikes!

[Vikingsfan4321]

Demi I don't understand. EVERY issue you listed didn't apply to Ponder this last game. LITERALLY every one in your B column. It seems like you want someone with the skill set of Aaron Rodgers on his perfect day, and will only be satisfied with that. I don't know what more you could want then no interceptions and 270 yards ((?) its around that) passsing to start the season against a top 10 defense from last year. But I don't need to hit this point home anymore.

Lets all just take a step back. If you hadn't watched the game. And had just asked someone who saw it how ponder did they would say:

Started out slow, got into a groove around halftime made some pretty throws and came up clutch in the end.

That sounds like Eli manning to me. Mr Clutch in the last 5 minutes. Manning has won two superbowls out of being clutch in the last 5-10 minutes of a game. Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Pervertberger, Peyton. All the superstar QB's are going to have MULTIPLE drives in a game where they look like they don't have a friggin clue. It's one thing to say Ponder looked bad at XYZ or when he ABCs Its just bias to he will suck forever based on something that EVERY QB who has EVER played football has done in EVERY game they have EVER played in (with very few exceptions which are well known for being exceptions).


I think Ponder has the POTENTIAL to lead the team for almost a decade, get us close a couple of times and win it all once. Then we'll look back on that year and see he played out of his mind for whatever reason.

[Mothman]

Because it wasn't just "good news". It was a come from behind victory in part because of Ponder himself. Four drives without a score. Four drives where he looked completely lost and made a number of bonehead decisions.

You're exaggerating. He didn't look completely lost on four drives. He made a few mistakes. He also completed some nice passes, even on those early failed drives.

If you're going to discuss the performance can we at least be honest about it? There were good parts, and bad parts. I'm acknowledging both...that is "diminishing the performance"?

I AM being honest about it and no, saying there were good and bad aspects to Ponder's performance isn't diminishing it but you've gone a further than that.

[Mothman]

As it pertains to Sunday's game, every single issue you list here is patently false. Especially the "stares down receivers," "accuracy past 15 yards," and "struggling through reads" baloney. Every throw after his first seven was a good throw.

... and some of his first seven were too.

He looked off defenders. He threw accurately on the 29-yard pass to Rudolph after looking off the safety, and the 26-yard completion to Aromashodu in the game-tying drive (and that throw had plenty of velocity). Hell, even the "takes too many hits" criticism doesn't apply to Sunday's game. Not in the least.

At best, you're living in last season. At worst, you're presenting a thoughtless litany of issues that apply to any generic bad quarterback.

[Demi]

Holy crap! This is the first time I've seen the board drunk on the kool aid! Not only is it a Ponder circle jerk, let's pat each other on the back as we one up each other singing his praises!

As it pertains to Sunday's game, every single issue you list here is patently false.

Demi I don't understand. EVERY issue you listed didn't apply to Ponder this last game.

At no point did he say "last game". And when he asks for what I believe to be the positives, and negatives, of Ponder. I'm not going by just one HALF of one GAME. He started games last year. And he played an entire game last week. And four years of college. The guy didn't step off the bus with 2 minutes left in that first half.

At best, you're living in last season.

Or a world where Ponder has existed as a quarterback for more than 32 minutes.

That sounds like Eli manning to me.

Sounds like Joe Montana to me!

and some of his first seven were too.

Yeah, three of them. I assume every completion the guy has is a "good throw" at this point.

I know it's been a tough couple years, but holy cow!

[saint33]

Which gave up the 4th highest completion percentage. Because the team overall is complete trash. And they only had one of their starting cornerbacks for THIS game? Missing their starting middle linebacker as well. So probably two of their best what, 3 players? Were inactive? But I'M the disingenuous one?

So you just picked one random passing stat that they were low on and used that to contradict my statement? Yes they gave up the 4th highest completion percentage.... but 10th lowest average per completion. Also the 9th lowest number of passing TDs. Tied for 17th (ie. middle of the road) passer rating. 8th lowest yards. They allowed the 4th lowest passing plays of 20+ yards, and tied for 5th lowest of 40+. 12th lowest # of passing 1st downs allowed. Is that disingenuous enough for you?

And I'm confused about what you're getting at with when you point to Derek Cox being out for this game? All those stats I've pointed at up to this point were accomplished over the course of last season, which Cox only played 6 games. To add to that, they were accomplished with Rashean Mathis only in 9 games. They only played 5 games last year with both starting CBs, 5 games with only one of the two starters, and 6 with neither.

Oh and btw, Daryl Smith is an OLB, Paul Posluszny plays MLB. But that's neither here, nor there, just correcting you.

Anyway, were/are the Jaguars a poor team? Sure, last year they stunk as a team, and this year they don't appear to be a whole lot better. But because they were a bad overall team, that should discredit every aspect of the team? That's ridiculous. When judging Ponder's day, it doesn't make sense to say "it's not that impressive against a terrible Jags team" because the Jaguars were a terrible OFFENSIVE team, not defensively. Their passing defense was at worst above average, and Ponder had an overall good day (although he was terrible in the beginning). To continually discredit that due to the Jaguars overall team's, and more specifically, their offensive shortcomings clearly indicates you are using irrational logic to find an argument to prove your predetermined bias towards Ponder.

I'm not trying to make mountains of molehills, it was indeed only one game, and it was not perfect, nor without it's concerns. But overall, Ponder showed clear signs of progression and promise against a stout defense. If you want to suggest otherwise I'd suggest you start watching these games with a little more objectivity.

[hibbingviking]

ponder still needs to work on his pocket presence. his accuracy has improved and he is making better decisions. i wish the vikings would sign terrell owens, ever since the favre circus left town there hasnt been much excitement.

[Mothman]

Yeah, three of them. I assume every completion the guy has is a "good throw" at this point.

No, he made 2 or 3 truly bad throws in those first 7 too. One of them was thrown right to a safety and should have been intercepted. My point was just that he didn't start off wholly awful and then play good the rest of the way. Those first 4 drives didn't stall solely due to Ponder's performance.

[Just Me]

No, he made 2 or 3 truly bad throws in those first 7 too. One of them was thrown right to a safety and should have been intercepted. My point was just that he didn't start off wholly awful and then play good the rest of the way. Those first 4 drives didn't stall solely due to Ponder's performance.

I think you and Demi said the same thing here (If I read it correctly). Demi was acknowledging/conceding that if the pass was a completion it is a "good throw". (Which I interpreted to mean he is actually being generous here, as just because the receiver comes down with the ball, doesn't always mean it was a "good throw" per se. Let's face it, sometimes quarterbacks (all quarterbacks) make bad throws and get lucky.

[Just Me]

At no point did he say "last game". And when he asks for what I believe to be the positives, and negatives, of Ponder. I'm not going by just one HALF of one GAME. He started games last year. And he played an entire game last week. And four years of college. The guy didn't step off the bus with 2 minutes left in that first half.

Demi - Within the context of the 2012-2013 Season (which admittedly only has 4 pre-season games and 1 regular season game to evaluate), what is your evaluation of Ponder then? Since many of us are trying to gauge Ponder on how much he PROGRESSES, his weaknesses (from last year and previously) are only useful as a benchmark to see if he is improving. Manning, Montana, etc. all looked differently after they had time to develop.

Or a world where Ponder has existed as a quarterback for more than 32 minutes.

Scouting Report
"He can thread the needle, but usually goes with his primary receiver and forces the ball to him even when he's in a crowd. He's a gutty, gambling, cocky type. Doesn't have great tools, but could eventually start."

Sounds like a "MEH" QB Doesn't it? (BTW- It was a scouting report for Joe Montana the year he was drafted). I'm sure it was based on his entire college career and not just 32 minutes of a ball game.

I know it's been a tough couple years, but holy cow!

Look - I was one of the naysayers early on in the 2009 season when others already assumed we would be cruising to the Super Bowl. So, no, I don't drink the purple kool-aid. But I also can look objectively at situations, so I don't drink the purple hemlock, either. I'm not (and as far as I know, no one is) saying Ponder "looks to be" or will be "the next Joe Montana. I am saying a passer rating of 105.5 for THE GAME represents a strong performance. It is indicative of improvement. If you cannot acknowledge that fact, I have to question your objectivitiy. Ponder may well go and stink up the rest of the season. At this point it's also possible he could replace Rodgers as the League MVP. (FWIW - I don't think either is a strong possibility). You seem convinced Ponder is not the answer at QB. Fine. Since he has already shown more promise than Jackson ever did, I'd like to give him at least half the time we gave TJ to develop (especially since everyone except Childress knew early on that Jackson was not an NFL QB).

[psjordan]

... I am saying a passer rating of 105.5 for THE GAME represents a strong performance. It is indicative of improvement. If you cannot acknowledge that fact, I have to question your objectivitiy.

Well, realistically it is NOT indicative of improvement in my world either, so go ahead and question my "objectivitiy" as well.

I believe part (most?) of what Demi is hinting at is something I also agree with - less than one game is a ridiculous sample size to draw any conclusions.

Best case you walk away from that game feeling positive about Ponder or maybe nonplussed. But no way is one half of one game indicative of anything.

Ponder could still end up with the lowest (or highest) QB rating this year. Judge his improvement over last year after 7,8, 9 games or so this season.

[Mothman]

I think you and Demi said the same thing here (If I read it correctly). Demi was acknowledging/conceding that if the pass was a completion it is a "good throw". (Which I interpreted to mean he is actually being generous here, as just because the receiver comes down with the ball, doesn't always mean it was a "good throw" per se.

I didn't interpret it that way but perhaps that's what he meant. I wrote that about 5 minutes after waking up so misinterpretation on my part is probably pretty likely. Apologies all around...