I wonder if any of Harvin's issues have to do with the QB situation in Minnesota? Oh well... with Harvin right now, it's all speculation.

If I were a betting man, I would say the QB situation definitely is playing a role in this Harvin situation. In my opinion it's money, coach and QB.

That's the thing. I'm not sure he had below average receivers. I think he had the usual mix of receivers. He had two very good tight ends. Gearhart was looking like the real deal for 3rd down back when I watched. Harvin is incredible - probably a 1400 yard receiver with a good QB. I think Jenkins and Aromashadu are fine, if they had a guy who could hit them in stride.

I'll give you that the o-line was below average. But we all factor that in when we watch a QB. If he is getting crushed and someone hits his arm during a throw, we don't call the interception that results a "rookie mistake". No, the passes that made me think Ponder certainly didn't have "it" were the ones he threw badly with no pressure.

I really just didn't like his arm. He never threw a ball with purpose, with speed. It was always a floater, or to a receiver who had set down in the gap in the zone coverage. The Ponder I saw would have no chance against man-to-man coverage. Except to scramble out of it. And if that's our game plan, play Joe Webb. That guy has an amazing ability to avoid the sack.

just don't see the "it" factor in Ponder

You seriously overrate Jenkins and Aromashodu. Jenkins is passed his prime (wasn't even that good in it) and is the definition of mediocre. Aromashodu barely belongs on an NFL roster.

It's not just about speed and catching the ball (and Jenkins aint even fast). Its route running, ability to get separation, being able to fight for balls, etc.

The only teams in the league with worse WRs than the Vikes last year were the Browns and Jaguars.

We saw good and bad from Ponder last year, he may or may not be the answer but its way too early to write him off already after 10 games. Ponder deserves plenty blame for his poor play but terrible WRs and OL don't help mattters.

Jenkins and Aromashadu don't have to be great WR's. They just have to be average #2 and #3 guys (or even not that good, if Simpson is as good as advertised). I thought Aromashodu looked good in 2011. I didn't think he had anyone to get him the ball.

And that is why I disagree that we had the 3rd worst WR's in the league. We had Ponder/McNabb/Webb throwing to them! It's always hard to tease out whether success or failure is caused by QB's or WR's (or for rushing, caused by RB or offensive line). But in watching Ponder on the throws where he had protection, and simply had to hit a receiver in stride, he couldn't or wouldn't. That's not saying it will always be that way, but my impression is that a good QB would raise the production of our WR's by about 40%, giving them stats that would make them seem just slightly above average. Harvin is clearly above average, but still managed to be outgained (yardage) by most of the other team's #1 wideouts, because he didn't have a QB who could get him the ball.

McNabb did blow but Ponder played better than him. Jenkins went on IR soon after Ponder took the reigns. Aromashodu struggles to separate and is very inconsistent.

It true a great QB can make mediocre and scrub WRs look better but you don't expect a rookie QB with no training camp to be able to do that. A great WR can also make a sub par QB look better.
Even with the QB play being pretty bad by the Ponder/McNabb/Webb trio Harvin still posted great numbers.


The Vikings ranked 21st or lower in every WR category last year.
Our WRs outside of Harvin were not very good last year. Ponder might not have been good but it doesn't change the fact the WRs were bad. Even if Brady was our QB we would need to improve our WR corps. Brady might make those guys look better but it would mean the position don't need an upgrade.
When your trotting out Aromashodu, Camarillo and Arceneaux out there that's basically giving you rookie QB no help.



Percy Harvin: 87 rec, 967 yards, 6 TDs
Everyone Else*: 63 rec, 1200 yards, 4 TDs

*Jenkins, Aromashodu, Berrian, Camarillo, Burton and Arceneaux (6 PLAYERS)

So as your can see Percy Harvin up MORE THAN HALF of the Vikings WR production last year. Outside of him they have nothing at the position other than bottom of the depth chart fodder
Jenkins was mediocre but disappointing for Atlanta. Aromashodu has been on 6 teams in 6 years, Burton was a 7th round pick, Arceneaux is a CFL flier, Camarillo was below average and Bernard Berrian stopped caring about football in 2010.


Hopefully Jerome Simpson and the rookies pan out and our WR situation improves.

I believe that Jenkins and Aromashadu are both good WRs. Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that Simpson turns out to be a legit #1 WR. Our WRs would be: Simpson, Percy, Jenkins, Aromashadu, the rookies from Arkansas. To me, that is not a bad group. If Ponder can get them the ball on time and accurately, I think we will be ok there. Also keep in mind that we have Kyle Rudolph, AD, and Toby, and if Ponder can get some protection and improve on some of his flaws from last season, I think the Vikings could have a formidable offense.

I am mostly concerned about the defense, TBH.

Don't forget Burton. Pelissero just said he thinks as of right now it's Harvin, Simpson, Wright, Childs, Burton, and Jenkins/Aroma battling for the last spot (if they keep 6). Jenkins would be the more experienced but expensive option. With Simpson sitting out 3 games, the bottom 3 can battle it out through the beginning of the season before a decision needs to be made.

I really wonder if they Cut Jenkins or Aromashodu ? I think we should cut Jenkins just because he frees up cap space and saves a spot for one of the younger guys like Burton or whoever the odd guy out was.

Harvin Simpson Aromashodu Wright Childs Burton doesnt look to bad to me at all. If Wright or Childs prove to be anything worthy of even a No 2 Starter it would be a win and Burton has great intangibles I hope it all comes together for him this year.

I picked the 4th option. I just don't see any "wow" factor yet. I am sure that it is because he is still getting better. But right now, I see him as just getting the job done as a starter. A lot depends on his development this year.

Wow the Burton kid seems to have turned the corner an really impressed the staff. I like that lineup, young, hungry and talented. I would keep Aroma before Jenkins. Nothing specific i just think Devin can still make some spectacular plays down the field and still has some speed.
There was a couple plays where he looked like Sidney when he went up to get it. Jenkins is reliable but just looks like hes lost a step or two. Cant wait to see how it all folds out, either way we are a lot better at wr. The arkansas boys give us hope an anticipation an Simpson will make his mark this yr as a solid wr. Percy.....well Percy will be Percy!!

You got your numbers wrong. I'm looking at the NFL.com stats page, and here are just Jenkins and Aromashodu:
Jenkins - 38 for 466 yards and 3 TD's
Aromashodu - 26 for 468 and 1 TD

Combined they had 64 receptions. And if Jenkins was injured and missed time, he would have had significantly more production. As for the other 4 guys I agree, but the Vikes seemed to use their tight ends more as that 4th WR, with both Shiancoe and Rudolph getting decent production (considering the QB situation) in 2011.

Average height for a qb. Doesn't have the strongest arm. With better protection and more weapons I'm hoping he is better in the pocket this season.

I think the problem was that he didn't get open very consistently. Aromashodu looks great when he actually makes a nice catch or big play. However, all too often, he's failing to beat coverage and is a non-factor. He's a 4th or 5th WR on a good team and if he's ranked any higher than that on an NFL depth chart, I tend to think it's indicative of a problem (ie; injuries, insufficient talent on the roster, etc.).

By the way, I think you're overstating your case against Ponder. The assertion that "He never threw a ball with purpose, with speed. It was always a floater, or to a receiver who had set down in the gap in the zone coverage" simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Take another look at Ponder's TD strike to Harvin against Atlanta or this terrific pass he threw to Shiancoe at Green Bay:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... yard-catch

That's a great throw under pressure and Ponder delivered the ball accurately, with authority, against coverage. The TD to Harvin was another good downfield throw against coverage. Neither receiver had set down in a zone and neither pass was a floater. Those were confident, aggressive downfield throws and big plays.

Ponder was definitely inconsistent last season. He made some poor throws and poor decisions but he made some very good throws and good decisions as well. With more coaching and experience, he has the potential to be a good QB, maybe more. That doesn't mean he will be good but we can hope...

Great throw by Ponder. Unfortunately also a great highlight of Loadholt "non-blocking." Yikes.

Even after correcting my math fail, Harvin still had more receptions then every other WR on the roster combined although its not as big a gap it becomes 87-83 Harvin instead of 87-63. The total yards and TDs were correct though.

Regardless though, Aromashodu is too inconsistent and lacks the ability to separate and Jenkins is mediocre and on his last legs.
If Jenkins was cut I'm not so sure he'd be picked up by another team. I mean Plaxico Burress had 8 TDs last year with Mark Sanchez throwing to him and teams won't touch him simply because he's 35.

He's 35 with a history of problems. Jenkins is 30, not 35. I'm betting he could catch on with another team if he was cut by the Vikes but I doubt that will happen. If he fully recovers from his injury, he should be a reliable possession receiver for the Vikes again this year.

I know he's 30, but 30 in the NFL is like 35 in other sports. And I know Burress is older than Jenkins but I was just using him as an example of a 30+ WR who is still productive (more so than Jenkins) that can't find a job.

If the Vikings cut Jenkins, He might catch on somewhere after and injury or something but teams won't be in line for his services.

This statement, which matches many that are common on this board, just has no factual basis. Download the stats for wide receivers on NFL.com. Then sort by team and number each receiver sequentially by yardage (i.e. Harvin #1, Aromashodu #2, etc). Then resort to by receiver # and yardage. Aromashodu and Jenkins had nearly the same yardage total - slightly over 460 yards. This would make them (and actually made Jenkins) the 14th ranked #3 wideout. That's solidly in the middle of production for #3 guys. Solidly. And "on a good team" as you say, they'd have a much better QB throwing to them, raising their production by 30-40% (an admittedly uncertain number), actually putting them in the upper echelon of #3 wide receivers, somewhere in the midrange production of a #2 guy. There is just no way to justify a lower ranking in any objective manner.

Justifying the ~35% number, as an increase for better QB play, consider that the Steelers at #10 passing offense (not shooting for the moon, #1 or #2, but just above average) had about 33% more yards passing that the Vikes at #27. Percy should be in the 1200 yards per year range, not the 900. And he knows it, and it's why he wants to leave.

I know, we'd all like to go back to the days when we had Moss, Carter, and Reed, but give guys credit for being of average effectiveness at their position.

The problem is the Vikings are/were playing guys like Jenkins and Aromashodu as starters and they are only as effective as #3 receivers. I don't believe they are completely useless, however unfortunately on our roster they are being counted on for higher production than they are probably capable of, though this is a product of our front office either not drafting, developing or purchasing more higher quality receivers to fit the roles they need to play. Hopefully Simpson is one answer.

I disagree. Stats aren't the only facts available to us regarding Aromashodu. We can also look at his history in the league and even though he's a talented player who can occasionally have a big game, that history tells us he's had a hard time sticking with a team for long. When he does, and when he rises above the 4th or 5th spot on the WR depth chart, he seems to be a receiver teams look to replace. His history isn't that of a solid #3 receiver or of a player teams look to keep at that spot on their depth chart. I'd say that speaks volumes. Statistically, as you indicated, he did okay last year yet the Vikings added 2 WRs in the draft and a 3rd (Simpson) via free agency. Aromashodu isn't even a lock to make the 2012 roster for the Vikes right now.



... and what is your "factual basis" for that? We don't even know IF Harvin wants to leave, much less why he wants to leave.



I give Aromashodu credit for what he did last year but the stats you posted don't convince me he would be a solid #3 WR on a good team. The problem with your assertion that ""on a good team... they'd have a much better QB throwing to them, raising their production by 30-40% (an admittedly uncertain number), actually putting them in the upper echelon of #3 wide receivers, somewhere in the midrange production of a #2 guy" is it assumes too much. A much better QB can help raise the overall performance of a passing game and he can help WRs look better but every player has a ceiling. If Tom Brady was throwing to Aromashodu in the Pats offense, that wouldn't automatically make the Aromashodu 30-40% better. He has to be capable of being that much better. He'd also have to be capable of earning the #3 spot on the depth chart and on a good team, he'd have stiffer competition than he had on the Vikings last season (where he wasn't the #3 WR going into the season either).

... and hopefully, they drafted another answer. I think the addition of Simpson plus 2 WRs in the draft tells us all we need to know about how the Vikings viewed their depth chart at WR.

The only 2 teams DA has seen any significant playing time on are the Bears and Vikings, 2 teams with awful WRs at the time, and even then he couldn't consistently stay on the field.

Jenkins was an underachieving #2 on Atlanta for years and is 30 years old and making over $2m on a young rebuilding team.

I have no problem with Jenkins as a #3, but he shouldn't be starting, also for the current state of the Vikings it might make more sense to giving a young guy like Burton or Arceneaux a chance rather than a 30 year old, if they fail you then upgrade in the draft of FA the following year. There are always Michael Jenkins' out there.

In Aromashodu's case as mothman said, he's a depth/plug in guy and shouldn't be starting. You say him and Jenkins put up mid range #3 WR numbers last year. But in reality they did that mostly as a #2 WR. Jenkins became the #2 in like week #7 after Berrian was released and Aromashodu became the #2 when Jenkins went on IR like week 11.

If the Vikings thought that Jenkins and DA we're fine #2/#3 WR behind Harvin they wouldn't have signed Simpson or spent 2 4ths on Childs and Wright.

My problem isn't having Jenkins and DA on the roster but they SHOULD NOT be starting WRs. If they are your WR in trouble at the position. As I said before I'm not even sure either make the team at this point, with Jenkins being the more likely of the 2 to be kept.


I'm not saying we need Moss, Carter and Reed again. But you need one elite WR (which we don't have, Harvin is great but he's more of a jack of all trades guy) and a few solid guys around them.

I'll be happy if we can get a Moss, Burleson and Robinson again. But we can not go out there with what we had last year or Travis Taylor, Troy Williamson and Billy McMullen like we did in '06


We might have to just agree to disagree at this point.

They're terrible, plain and simple. There's no way to sugarcoat it. You watch the difference with harvin, simpson and childs

It was the braids, he blows

In defense of Ponder's confidence, or lack thereof, I noticed it dipping largely after the hip injury. Stats aside, it was rough for him last season. He got absolutely crushed more than a few times...just like Favre did the year before. Not having a good connection with a bigger wideout, the kind of connection that takes some time to build, like in training camp, really makes it hard on the passer. Especially a young one still learning to read blitzes. Favre had Rice, and he beat the pressure many times by just chucking it to Sydney.

Ponder looked poised and confident till he got his head pounded into the turf. To his credit he didn't resort to grinning while he looked for the softest place on the field to fall down, ala McRib. He hung in there despite being under protected and his most experienced WR injured, while he took his lumps, made his mistakes and experienced the NFL blitz up close and personal

Now he's bulked up some and sounds as if he's building some chemistry and confidence with a few of his WR's in camp. Who really knows how he'll perform, if he can stay healthy, what kind of noodle his arm is made of....but I get the feeling he's not going to play timid and we should know a heck of a lot more about him by week 10 regardless of the WRs.

I think he's smart and capable...whether or not he can put it all together depends on what he does with his opportunity to grow. It's must see TV for Vikings fans.

Fair response. I voted somewhere between pretty good and great, but I personally lean towards needs weapons around him. I'll tell you one thing, the Tim Tebow game was a HUGE test for the "it" factor with Ponder and he failed miserably. This was like Tebow's 3rd or 4th fourth quarter comeback in a row and he almost seemed to be reveling in the situation and made big plays as a result. Meanwhile Ponder had this Donovan McNabb in the Super Bowl type look on his face, where he wanted to be anywhere in the world but there at that moment. His face said he didn't want to decide the game in the final two minutes and his performance proved him right. It wasn't even so much the interception that bothered me as it was his mentality for those final minutes, which couldn't have felt too inspiring if you were his teammate looking at the cold beads of sweat form over his reddening face. That "it" factor definitely proved to be absent in that Broncos game. That 4th quarter was personally disappointing to me for that reason.

Saying Ponder "failed miserably" in a game where he threw for 381 yards and 3 TDs seems a bit harsh. He threw a bad INT in the final 2 minutes and was by no means perfect but I don't remember seeing the insecure look you describe. Other than the INT, he actually had a very strong 4th quarter and, like Tebow, he made big plays in that game. I have a hard time believing Ponder was the proverbial deer in the headlights, afraid to lead the Vikes in the final two minutes. I think he just came out and was baited by a veteran defender into throwing a bad pass. I understand that it would have been energizing to see him engineer a game-winning drive at the end but I think his whole performance in that game should be taken into account, not just his final mistake.

For purposes of having that "it" factor hero moment, the entirety of the game was irrelevant, as I wasn't saying he had a crap game. It was how he would respond in that situation. The fact that he played well the first three quarters almost proves my point. As the game was building to that finish I was purposely watching Ponder to see how he would respond in that IMMENSE pressure situation, and you'd have to watch tape again, but he had a look on his face like he didn't at any point in that season when Tebow brought them back and it was up to Ponder to lead the Vikes to victory. I'm not saying he failed as a QB, or is even a bad QB, but that was a defining moment of natural character instinct. He might be skilled and experienced enough in the future to overcome those situations but he showed he is definitely not a natural for a high-pressure intense finish like that like Tebow, McNair, Montana, Favre, Brady, etc. Had he come through in that game I was ready to run out and buy a #7 jersey, because I would've known that he was "the one", but it didn't happen. Still like Ponder, but if someone wants to say he doesn't have the "it" factor or the "wow" factor yet, I can't really argue with them.