Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by VikingLord » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:09 pm

CharVike wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:41 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:22 am


It was an impact play, but if you watch it again you see the QB throw it right to him. It was a terrible throw by the QB. Maybe caused by pressure but I don't remember for sure, but definitely not a ball where Hughes had to show anticipation or great awareness. He was basically the receiver on the play, and the pick was on like the 30 yard line of the opponent, so it was darn near impossible for him not to score on that play.

Since then I've seen nothing from him when he's been healthy.
He did catch it at least. I've seen plenty of interceptions even closer than the 30 not returned all the way. Outside of that he didn't show much his rookie year. This year was a waste for him. I watched Carl Lee sit around for years before the light went on. Regardless of all that he needs to be a starter this year and perform well. It's in our best interest for that to happen.
True, especially since he was a 1st round pick in a draft where many thought he was a luxury BPA selection (myself included in that).

Still, he's got to step it up. His coverage has to tighten up and he's got to make plays on the ball. The Vikings CBs were terrible at making plays on the ball all year. I can't recall the last time I saw them suck so completely across the board despite often having solid position. It was almost like they were coached not to swipe at the ball or do anything that could draw a flag, but rather just be close enough to discourage the QB from attempting the throw. If that is the case it didn't work.

For as much as the Vikings have invested in the defensive secondary in recent drafts, this last season was a HUGE disappointment. I see lots of mocks that have the Vikings taking yet another CB in Round 1. I don't think that should be necessary, nor do I think that solves the immediate issue. If I am Zimmer I fire the DB coach and find someone else while retaining the guys who I think can improve with better coaching. I do that mainly because the team has greater immediate needs on the OL and interior DL where the draft might be able to produce some help.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:54 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:09 pm
CharVike wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:41 am

He did catch it at least. I've seen plenty of interceptions even closer than the 30 not returned all the way. Outside of that he didn't show much his rookie year. This year was a waste for him. I watched Carl Lee sit around for years before the light went on. Regardless of all that he needs to be a starter this year and perform well. It's in our best interest for that to happen.
True, especially since he was a 1st round pick in a draft where many thought he was a luxury BPA selection (myself included in that).

Still, he's got to step it up. His coverage has to tighten up and he's got to make plays on the ball. The Vikings CBs were terrible at making plays on the ball all year. I can't recall the last time I saw them suck so completely across the board despite often having solid position. It was almost like they were coached not to swipe at the ball or do anything that could draw a flag, but rather just be close enough to discourage the QB from attempting the throw. If that is the case it didn't work.

For as much as the Vikings have invested in the defensive secondary in recent drafts, this last season was a HUGE disappointment. I see lots of mocks that have the Vikings taking yet another CB in Round 1. I don't think that should be necessary, nor do I think that solves the immediate issue. If I am Zimmer I fire the DB coach and find someone else while retaining the guys who I think can improve with better coaching. I do that mainly because the team has greater immediate needs on the OL and interior DL where the draft might be able to produce some help.
With how long CB draft picks have taken to acclimate to Zimmer's defense, it is safe to assume we will not be able to fix the secondary with the draft, at least not in 2020.

To get better, Hughes will need to take a huge leap in development and we will need to find a cheap veteran slot corner who plays well (assuming Mack moves outside and is extended.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:06 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:54 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:09 pm


True, especially since he was a 1st round pick in a draft where many thought he was a luxury BPA selection (myself included in that).

Still, he's got to step it up. His coverage has to tighten up and he's got to make plays on the ball. The Vikings CBs were terrible at making plays on the ball all year. I can't recall the last time I saw them suck so completely across the board despite often having solid position. It was almost like they were coached not to swipe at the ball or do anything that could draw a flag, but rather just be close enough to discourage the QB from attempting the throw. If that is the case it didn't work.

For as much as the Vikings have invested in the defensive secondary in recent drafts, this last season was a HUGE disappointment. I see lots of mocks that have the Vikings taking yet another CB in Round 1. I don't think that should be necessary, nor do I think that solves the immediate issue. If I am Zimmer I fire the DB coach and find someone else while retaining the guys who I think can improve with better coaching. I do that mainly because the team has greater immediate needs on the OL and interior DL where the draft might be able to produce some help.
With how long CB draft picks have taken to acclimate to Zimmer's defense, it is safe to assume we will not be able to fix the secondary with the draft, at least not in 2020.

To get better, Hughes will need to take a huge leap in development and we will need to find a cheap veteran slot corner who plays well (assuming Mack moves outside and is extended.
IMO looking to the draft for immediate help is the wrong approach. QB WR and CB typically take longer to develop. We hit it out of the park with O'neil and Bradberry. Both kids came in and stepped right in. Bradberry had his issues but that position is difficult. He will be much better next year. We need to look at our bench for starters. If Hughes takes that huge step it will be great for us. If he doesn't then he's a bust. Remember he was very young when drafted. He's only 22 now. So it could happen. He's still maturing from a physical stand point. I don't even mind letting Rhodes and Waynes walk. It's not like either was a shut down guy. They were adequate nothing more. I don't see either as a shut down CB at this point or even becoming one. . .
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by psjordan » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:52 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:09 pm
If I am Zimmer I fire the DB coach and find someone else
Well, Jerry Gray is out and here comes Daronte Jones (seemingly a classic "bounced around" coach). I will also be very interested to see if this makes a difference with whatever DB roster we end up with. No idea if this coaching move means any of our struggling DB's have a better or worse chance to stick around. I'm gonna go with worse.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by Super Bowl or Bust » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:40 pm

Read on ESPN today the recommendation to extend Cousins for three additional years for a total of $129 million over next four years, probably guaranteed, probably with a no trade clause, with a $40 million signing bonus, and enormous cap hits in years 3 & 4.

Forget it. Let him play next year under his existing contract. Franchise tag him for 2021 at around $27 million.

That gives him two years to prove he can win more than one game in the playoffs. Or, the Vikings can commit to him now and forever after.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by VikingLord » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:23 pm

Super Bowl or Bust wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:40 pm
Read on ESPN today the recommendation to extend Cousins for three additional years for a total of $129 million over next four years, probably guaranteed, probably with a no trade clause, with a $40 million signing bonus, and enormous cap hits in years 3 & 4.

Forget it. Let him play next year under his existing contract. Franchise tag him for 2021 at around $27 million.

That gives him two years to prove he can win more than one game in the playoffs. Or, the Vikings can commit to him now and forever after.
I think Cousins has proven everything he is going to prove at this point in his career. There is a bright side to that in the fact that the Vikings, or another team that signs him, knows his strengths and limitations and probably can build around those.

But the downside to that is Cousins probably is never going to be a guy to elevate a team. He's a good QB who can make plays, but he's not going to pose problems for defenses like a Lamar Alexander, Russell Wilson, Patrick Mahomes, or even a Tom Brady does.

In my view, paying top dollar for a QB who is not capable of elevating a team to the next level is wasted money.

Since Spielman has already spent that money with Cousins for this upcoming year he's going to be the starter for one more season. As to whether he should be the starter beyond that I don't know. A lot depends on whether and if Spielman can find a viable alternative, whether through the draft, free agency or trade. Great QBs, the kind who can elevate a team, are hard to find no matter how they are ultimately found, but it can be done. So the question for Spielman is, can he find a guy he thinks can be special?

If the answer is no, then while I am not happy that Cousins is making star money, that might be the best the Vikings can do. I personally hope the draft gods are kind to the Vikings this year and someone falls into their lap who in hindsight had no business falling into their lap, and that guy ends up taking over the season after next and altering their fortunes dramatically upward.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:23 pm
Super Bowl or Bust wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:40 pm
Read on ESPN today the recommendation to extend Cousins for three additional years for a total of $129 million over next four years, probably guaranteed, probably with a no trade clause, with a $40 million signing bonus, and enormous cap hits in years 3 & 4.

Forget it. Let him play next year under his existing contract. Franchise tag him for 2021 at around $27 million.

That gives him two years to prove he can win more than one game in the playoffs. Or, the Vikings can commit to him now and forever after.
I think Cousins has proven everything he is going to prove at this point in his career. There is a bright side to that in the fact that the Vikings, or another team that signs him, knows his strengths and limitations and probably can build around those.

But the downside to that is Cousins probably is never going to be a guy to elevate a team. He's a good QB who can make plays, but he's not going to pose problems for defenses like a Lamar Alexander, Russell Wilson, Patrick Mahomes, or even a Tom Brady does.

In my view, paying top dollar for a QB who is not capable of elevating a team to the next level is wasted money.

Since Spielman has already spent that money with Cousins for this upcoming year he's going to be the starter for one more season. As to whether he should be the starter beyond that I don't know. A lot depends on whether and if Spielman can find a viable alternative, whether through the draft, free agency or trade. Great QBs, the kind who can elevate a team, are hard to find no matter how they are ultimately found, but it can be done. So the question for Spielman is, can he find a guy he thinks can be special?

If the answer is no, then while I am not happy that Cousins is making star money, that might be the best the Vikings can do. I personally hope the draft gods are kind to the Vikings this year and someone falls into their lap who in hindsight had no business falling into their lap, and that guy ends up taking over the season after next and altering their fortunes dramatically upward.
If you think any of the QBs you just listed will take a team with an average defense to the super bowl is wrong IMO. Yes Wilson won a Super Bowl that did happen. He lost one also. I think that team had one of the all time great defenses in NFL history. Don't you think that helped a little? Or was it just Wilson and the D didn't matter? They didn't win a playoff game this year because their D isn't good enough and Wilson can't overcome that. IMO he can't elevate a team either and he's the highest paid QB. Bring back the LOB and they are in business. Give us our own LOB and we will have a chance. We are doomed like all teams with a middle of the road D. You don't win SBs with that. Wait until Mahomes becomes the highest paid and they need to break that team up because of it. He's not good enough to elevate that team either. That team beat us with a backup bum QB. They have a solid team and many feel it's all Mahomes.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:35 am

CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am
VikingLord wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:23 pm


I think Cousins has proven everything he is going to prove at this point in his career. There is a bright side to that in the fact that the Vikings, or another team that signs him, knows his strengths and limitations and probably can build around those.

But the downside to that is Cousins probably is never going to be a guy to elevate a team. He's a good QB who can make plays, but he's not going to pose problems for defenses like a Lamar Alexander, Russell Wilson, Patrick Mahomes, or even a Tom Brady does.

In my view, paying top dollar for a QB who is not capable of elevating a team to the next level is wasted money.

Since Spielman has already spent that money with Cousins for this upcoming year he's going to be the starter for one more season. As to whether he should be the starter beyond that I don't know. A lot depends on whether and if Spielman can find a viable alternative, whether through the draft, free agency or trade. Great QBs, the kind who can elevate a team, are hard to find no matter how they are ultimately found, but it can be done. So the question for Spielman is, can he find a guy he thinks can be special?

If the answer is no, then while I am not happy that Cousins is making star money, that might be the best the Vikings can do. I personally hope the draft gods are kind to the Vikings this year and someone falls into their lap who in hindsight had no business falling into their lap, and that guy ends up taking over the season after next and altering their fortunes dramatically upward.
If you think any of the QBs you just listed will take a team with an average defense to the super bowl is wrong IMO. Yes Wilson won a Super Bowl that did happen. He lost one also. I think that team had one of the all time great defenses in NFL history. Don't you think that helped a little? Or was it just Wilson and the D didn't matter? They didn't win a playoff game this year because their D isn't good enough and Wilson can't overcome that. IMO he can't elevate a team either and he's the highest paid QB. Bring back the LOB and they are in business. Give us our own LOB and we will have a chance. We are doomed like all teams with a middle of the road D. You don't win SBs with that. Wait until Mahomes becomes the highest paid and they need to break that team up because of it. He's not good enough to elevate that team either. That team beat us with a backup bum QB. They have a solid team and many feel it's all Mahomes.
I don't think any of the QBs listed or even Brady the best ever takes the Bengals to the Super Bowl. The team blows and has no chance no matter who the QB is including Mahones or Wilson or even the best ever Brady. Give me a QB playing today that can elevate them to the Super Bowl right now. Wilson who is the highest paid. IMO no way. They will still blow.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:37 am

CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am
VikingLord wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:23 pm


I think Cousins has proven everything he is going to prove at this point in his career. There is a bright side to that in the fact that the Vikings, or another team that signs him, knows his strengths and limitations and probably can build around those.

But the downside to that is Cousins probably is never going to be a guy to elevate a team. He's a good QB who can make plays, but he's not going to pose problems for defenses like a Lamar Alexander, Russell Wilson, Patrick Mahomes, or even a Tom Brady does.

In my view, paying top dollar for a QB who is not capable of elevating a team to the next level is wasted money.

Since Spielman has already spent that money with Cousins for this upcoming year he's going to be the starter for one more season. As to whether he should be the starter beyond that I don't know. A lot depends on whether and if Spielman can find a viable alternative, whether through the draft, free agency or trade. Great QBs, the kind who can elevate a team, are hard to find no matter how they are ultimately found, but it can be done. So the question for Spielman is, can he find a guy he thinks can be special?

If the answer is no, then while I am not happy that Cousins is making star money, that might be the best the Vikings can do. I personally hope the draft gods are kind to the Vikings this year and someone falls into their lap who in hindsight had no business falling into their lap, and that guy ends up taking over the season after next and altering their fortunes dramatically upward.
If you think any of the QBs you just listed will take a team with an average defense to the super bowl is wrong IMO. Yes Wilson won a Super Bowl that did happen. He lost one also. I think that team had one of the all time great defenses in NFL history. Don't you think that helped a little? Or was it just Wilson and the D didn't matter? They didn't win a playoff game this year because their D isn't good enough and Wilson can't overcome that. IMO he can't elevate a team either and he's the highest paid QB. Bring back the LOB and they are in business. Give us our own LOB and we will have a chance. We are doomed like all teams with a middle of the road D. You don't win SBs with that. Wait until Mahomes becomes the highest paid and they need to break that team up because of it. He's not good enough to elevate that team either. That team beat us with a backup bum QB. They have a solid team and many feel it's all Mahomes.
The Seahawks won a playoff game this year for one thing, and they lost to the Packers in part because of their defense, but the biggest issue was their starting and backup RB got hurt and they tried to make Lynch work. Even banged up they still managed to make a game of it against the Packers, which is more than we did. I am pretty confident we see Wilson Mahomes SB this past year if Carson is healthy, or even if Carrol adjusts better to losing him.

KC's defense was worse than ours in nearly every statistical category. Turnovers, which you are so fond of, points per game, yards per game, you name it.

In the SB, SF ran on KC with great success, similar to what they did against us. The big difference was KC's offense actually put some pressure on SF at the end and made them throw the ball.

SF is what the Vikings aspire to be, and in the end it wasn't good enough because the QB couldn't make a play when it mattered.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:02 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:37 am
CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am

If you think any of the QBs you just listed will take a team with an average defense to the super bowl is wrong IMO. Yes Wilson won a Super Bowl that did happen. He lost one also. I think that team had one of the all time great defenses in NFL history. Don't you think that helped a little? Or was it just Wilson and the D didn't matter? They didn't win a playoff game this year because their D isn't good enough and Wilson can't overcome that. IMO he can't elevate a team either and he's the highest paid QB. Bring back the LOB and they are in business. Give us our own LOB and we will have a chance. We are doomed like all teams with a middle of the road D. You don't win SBs with that. Wait until Mahomes becomes the highest paid and they need to break that team up because of it. He's not good enough to elevate that team either. That team beat us with a backup bum QB. They have a solid team and many feel it's all Mahomes.
The Seahawks won a playoff game this year for one thing, and they lost to the Packers in part because of their defense, but the biggest issue was their starting and backup RB got hurt and they tried to make Lynch work. Even banged up they still managed to make a game of it against the Packers, which is more than we did. I am pretty confident we see Wilson Mahomes SB this past year if Carson is healthy, or even if Carrol adjusts better to losing him.

KC's defense was worse than ours in nearly every statistical category. Turnovers, which you are so fond of, points per game, yards per game, you name it.

In the SB, SF ran on KC with great success, similar to what they did against us. The big difference was KC's offense actually put some pressure on SF at the end and made them throw the ball.

SF is what the Vikings aspire to be, and in the end it wasn't good enough because the QB couldn't make a play when it mattered.
I forgot. They beat the Eagles. I think we beat that team also. So yes Wilson did win a playoff game.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by VikingLord » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm

CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am
If you think any of the QBs you just listed will take a team with an average defense to the super bowl is wrong IMO.
I don't think that nor am I trying to say that, so I agree with you.
CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am
Yes Wilson won a Super Bowl that did happen. He lost one also. I think that team had one of the all time great defenses in NFL history. Don't you think that helped a little? Or was it just Wilson and the D didn't matter?
Of course defense matters. Its a team game with 3 on-field components (offense, defense and special teams) and 2 off-field components (coaches and GM/ownership) that all need to work well together to have a chance to get to, much less win, a Superbowl. The defense is one of the on-field components. Teams can and do win Superbowls without every facet being great, but it's almost impossible to get to one, much less win it, if one or more are an outright liability.

Speaking of which, which component(s) do you think are liabilities for the Vikings? Why didn't the Vikings get to the Superbowl this year?
CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am
Wait until Mahomes becomes the highest paid and they need to break that team up because of it. He's not good enough to elevate that team either. That team beat us with a backup bum QB. They have a solid team and many feel it's all Mahomes.
We'll see, but that isn't my point. I'm not claiming all a team needs is the right QB. Each team should try to get the best QB possible, though, within their cap constraints.

We'll see what happens with Mahomes, but it is pretty rare for a top-flight QB in his prime or even slightly past it to move on to another team. Most teams, when faced with the calculation of paying for top performance at the QB position, will conclude it is worth it to pay top dollar if they have someone special on their roster.

Is Cousins someone special? Can he elevate the team when the team needs it?
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:01 am

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am
If you think any of the QBs you just listed will take a team with an average defense to the super bowl is wrong IMO.
I don't think that nor am I trying to say that, so I agree with you.
CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am
Yes Wilson won a Super Bowl that did happen. He lost one also. I think that team had one of the all time great defenses in NFL history. Don't you think that helped a little? Or was it just Wilson and the D didn't matter?
Of course defense matters. Its a team game with 3 on-field components (offense, defense and special teams) and 2 off-field components (coaches and GM/ownership) that all need to work well together to have a chance to get to, much less win, a Superbowl. The defense is one of the on-field components. Teams can and do win Superbowls without every facet being great, but it's almost impossible to get to one, much less win it, if one or more are an outright liability.

Speaking of which, which component(s) do you think are liabilities for the Vikings? Why didn't the Vikings get to the Superbowl this year?
CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:12 am
Wait until Mahomes becomes the highest paid and they need to break that team up because of it. He's not good enough to elevate that team either. That team beat us with a backup bum QB. They have a solid team and many feel it's all Mahomes.
We'll see, but that isn't my point. I'm not claiming all a team needs is the right QB. Each team should try to get the best QB possible, though, within their cap constraints.

We'll see what happens with Mahomes, but it is pretty rare for a top-flight QB in his prime or even slightly past it to move on to another team. Most teams, when faced with the calculation of paying for top performance at the QB position, will conclude it is worth it to pay top dollar if they have someone special on their roster.

Is Cousins someone special? Can he elevate the team when the team needs it?
IMO we need to improve our D. Cousins did win a playoff game with a great drive at the end. He elevated the team for that game. Will it be every time? No. Only one team will make the show and every QB failed to elevate their team but one. We had a good season and made the playoffs. It would be better if we were a young team with the arrow pointing up. But we are a veteran group. This core appears to be maxed out so there will need to be changes made particularly on D. The key is we need to get hot for the playoffs. We seemed to be luke warm as a team and they shot their last load at the Saints. We had nothing left after that game. Including zero on the ground. That effort against the 49ers with 2 yards a pop will never work. No QB is winning with a ground game like that. That also needs to be fixed.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:13 pm

CharVike wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:01 am

IMO we need to improve our D. Cousins did win a playoff game with a great drive at the end. He elevated the team for that game. Will it be every time? No. Only one team will make the show and every QB failed to elevate their team but one. We had a good season and made the playoffs. It would be better if we were a young team with the arrow pointing up. But we are a veteran group. This core appears to be maxed out so there will need to be changes made particularly on D. The key is we need to get hot for the playoffs. We seemed to be luke warm as a team and they shot their last load at the Saints. We had nothing left after that game. Including zero on the ground. That effort against the 49ers with 2 yards a pop will never work. No QB is winning with a ground game like that. That also needs to be fixed.
We should be trying to improve both the offense and defense, but I think we only improve the offense this coming off season and the defense takes a step back. If you are expecting this D to carry the team to victories, you are going to be very disappointed next season. Every season probably, but especially next season. They are likely going to lose a very good DE and two of their starters from the secondary.

The Vikings need an excellent draft just to maintain the status quo on D, improving it in 2020 is pretty much impossible.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by Mothman » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:29 am

CharVike wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:01 am
IMO we need to improve our D. Cousins did win a playoff game with a great drive at the end. He elevated the team for that game. Will it be every time? No. Only one team will make the show and every QB failed to elevate their team but one
That's not true. Elevating the team doesn't simply equate to "winning the Super Bowl". It means making the team better, bringing something more than just solid, functional performance to the position. When people refer to QBs that elevates their teams, they're talking about difference-makers, true impact players at the position. Wilson's a perfect example of that kind of player.

If a QB is the difference between a 6-10 team and a 10-6 team, he's still elevating that team, even if they don't win the Super Bowl.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by Mothman » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:35 am

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
Speaking of which, which component(s) do you think are liabilities for the Vikings? Why didn't the Vikings get to the Superbowl this year?
Coaching and team-building top my list. In terms of specific areas of the roster, I'd focus on the line of scrimmage. That's where a lot of games are won and lost and the Vikings were inadequate there on both sides of the ball. They simply don't block well enough and they're too vulnerable to the run.

The secondary needs work too and Cousins' limitations as a QB suggest to me that he's only getting them to a Super Bowl if they can create a pretty ideal situation around him.
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