Kirk Cousins is having an MVP season

[PurpleMustReign]

PHP this is why I hate stats. You just explained how numbers don't tell the whole story. I don't get hung up on any stat other than wins and losses. The other numbers are just noise. People (I don't mean just you, I mean 99.9% of fans and analysts) get so hung up on them, especially nowadays. Fox and ESPN always show a dumb stat iike "he's 10-0 when throwing 35 times when the temperature is above 65 and the wind is out of the west at 3.4 mph" and its just stupid. You can maybe get ddcent information by looking at a large group of stats but overall individually they don't tell a story. IIRC, the 1988 vikings won their games by an average of 30 points or something. Amazing! But in the end, all it meant was a road playoff loss to San Francisco.

[StumpHunter]

sigh...we need to clear cap room to get Cousins two new starting Guards in FA next year, start running the ball and play complimentary football with Zimmer's style of defense. Don't throw the ball more than 25 times a game as long as Cousins is the QB. He's going to thrive in a controlled environment, not a chaotic one. Passing 44 times a game just allows for too much chaos.

Man, I'm so tired of this "We need to clear some of Cousins cap room to sign.........." BS.

Vikings QB cap space, percentage of cap.
2016 8.06%
2017 13.27%
2018 13.86%
2019 15.67% 2 players signed
2020 16.58% 1 player signed

Packers
2016 12.18%
2017 12.05%
2018 12.19%
2019 14.52% 3 players signed.
2020 18.40% 3 players signed

Saints.
2018 15.13%
2019 17.94% 2 players signed.
2020 0%

Panthers
2018 12.23%
2019 12.14% 1 player signed.
2020 11.24% 1 player

Redskins
2018 12.44%
2019 14.20% 3 players.
2020 11.40% 1 player

Will they redo Cousins contract to make some room? Most likely. But his contract isn't hurting the Vikings like everyone claims it is. The Vikings sit in 4th from the top in QB spending through 2020 at this point. Rams, Chiefs, Patriots, Saints, Bears, Skins, Eagles, Giants all have QB's on cap friendly or rookie deals. By 2020, the Vikings will around 10th in the league in cap hit for QB's. Only 2 teams spend more than the Vikings on defense. Jacksonville and Houston. Only 8 teams spend more on defense than offense. And most of those have QB's on their rookie contract.

I am not sure what you want to prove with these numbers. That we have been grossly overpaying at QB for a few years now and it has not resulted in a SB? I agree with that. One of my big issues with Bradford was his pay check, to go along with the fact he was a bad QB who is always hurt. I thought the trade was a bad idea initially and wanted to trade him away at his peak value after the 2016 season to some team stupid enough to think that guy was the answer. We traded a first round pick for a guy with some of the worst career numbers in the NFL and who couldn’t stay healthy. A first to overpay Sam Bradford. Eagles management is still laughing.
As for the other teams in your list, none are competing for a SB outside of NO, who had bottomed out due to Brees’s large contract and were able to build through the draft because of it. Their young, talented guys aren’t making big money yet, so it is easier for them to compete. Plus, Brees is a much better QB than Cousins, and is providing a lot more value, as is every other QB group in this list outside of Washington. Another team making bad decisions at QB does not justify your team making bad decisions though.
So in other words, I could use those exact same numbers to argue:
1) The Vikings have made poor cap decisions at QB for years
2) Paying the QB a ton of money hurts your team, even if that QB is Rogers or Cam Newton
3) Cousins is overpaid, making as much or more than Rogers, Cam and Brees for much of his contract. Three QBs who make their teams better and are worth the hit to the cap.


Cousins isn't going to restructure either, unless he is playing poorly that is. Then he will be looking for stability, maybe. He is a Viking today because Cousins bets on himself and refused to sign an extension in DC that wasn't fully guaranteed.

I

[StumpHunter]

Thank You. Can we please stop using the OL as an excuse for Cousins deficiencies? OL needs to play better. So does Cousins.

This is why that stat is bogus.. .. I know exactly where you getting it from. It’s next gen stats. Look at everyone’s numbers on there. It says that Big Ben, the same Big Ben that has probably the best offensive line in football in front of him, has the LEAST amount of time to throw at 2.56. Drew Brees at the 2nd least with 2.57. And Brady has the 3rd least. Now last time I checked, those 3 QBs hardly get touched game after game and have top end offensive lines.

That stat is garbage and that shows exactly why.

Being pressured 291 times in a season, is being pressured 291 times. No question about it. That’s more than “the offensive line having it’s problems”. Look at the guys behind Cousins in that stat. Goff, Mahomes, Ryan, Rodgers, Watson, Wentz, Wilson. Some of them are miles behind him and are considered to have “more time”.

Bottom line is, the way that stat works is:

If you have “little time to throw” according to the stat but are barely getting sacked, that means you’re getting it out quick. Not really saying much about your offensive line. If you have a lot of time to throw but aren’t getting sacked often that usually means you have a pretty good OL and/or you’re very mobile and can buy more time.

But if you’re fairly “low” AND you’re taking a lot of sacks, chances are that means you have a pretty bad offensive line. If Cousins was up in the 2.9 range and taking all these sacks, I would say yeah, probably holding onto it too long. But having 2.67 and still getting sacked often, shows me that’s not necessarily the case.

Remember, this stat does not factor in pressures. So if you’re Russell Wilson and can BUY TIME, that stat is going to show you have a ton of time to throw but his offensive line is actually terrible when it comes to pass blocking. If you’re a pure pocket QB like cousins, you aren’t buying time.

Guys want to say “Cousins holds the ball too long” but again, look at the numbers. When he has a good pass blocking offensive line (his first two years in Washington) he’s getting sacked in the low 20’s by years end. Then you look at last year and his offensive line gets crushed by injuries and he gets sacked 41 times. He’s now on pace for that this year because of how poor our offensive line is when it comes to pass blocking. If he has a halfway decent OL, he’s fine. So I disagree with him holding the ball too long. It just seems like that because he’s getting pressured so quickly and so often.

I’m not saying Cousins is some god or that we can’t criticize him but to say he holds the ball too long when he’s getting pressured 291 times and basing it off of next gen stats doesn’t add up. In 2015, Washington OL was ranked 11th PFF, 2016 was 7th but then in 2017, it was 21st. But still higher than ours in 2017. We were 22nd last year. In 2018, this offensive line is going to be bottom 5. That’s far from being Kirk Cousins fault.

This:

It says that Big Ben, the same Big Ben that has probably the best offensive line in football in front of him, has the LEAST amount of time to throw at 2.56. Drew Brees at the 2nd least with 2.57. And Brady has the 3rd least. Now last time I checked, those 3 QBs hardly get touched game after game and have top end offensive lines.

Is why people think he holds the ball too long. The three best pure pocket passers in the NFL get rid of the ball quickly, because they know they have to too avoid sacks. That is how they help their lines out and a lot of times make them look better than they really are. Cousins holds the ball way too long for a pure pocket passer without an amazing line in front of him. It is a bad habit he developed when he had all day to throw his first two seasons in Washington. It was my biggest concern when the Vikings were looking to sign him outside of his bad record versus good teams.
I think even you have to admit Cousins is making this line look worse than they really are. Of his two sacks Sunday, the one that happened in the SHORTEST amount of time occurred in 3.4 seconds, which is on the QB. The first sack was especially bad, with both Diggs and Thielen wide open for decent gains. If a QB isn’t going to scramble, they have to get rid of the ball quickly. Cousins refuses to do either, and people are shocked he is facing a ton of pressure?

[Cliff]

This:

It says that Big Ben, the same Big Ben that has probably the best offensive line in football in front of him, has the LEAST amount of time to throw at 2.56. Drew Brees at the 2nd least with 2.57. And Brady has the 3rd least. Now last time I checked, those 3 QBs hardly get touched game after game and have top end offensive lines.

Is why people think he holds the ball too long. The three best pure pocket passers in the NFL get rid of the ball quickly, because they know they have to too avoid sacks. That is how they help their lines out and a lot of times make them look better than they really are. Cousins holds the ball way too long for a pure pocket passer without an amazing line in front of him. It is a bad habit he developed when he had all day to throw his first two seasons in Washington. It was my biggest concern when the Vikings were looking to sign him outside of his bad record versus good teams.
I think even you have to admit Cousins is making this line look worse than they really are. Of his two sacks Sunday, the one that happened in the SHORTEST amount of time occurred in 3.4 seconds, which is on the QB. The first sack was especially bad, with both Diggs and Thielen wide open for decent gains. If a QB isn’t going to scramble, they have to get rid of the ball quickly. Cousins refuses to do either, and people are shocked he is facing a ton of pressure?

Keep in mind that number is also going to reflect how quickly a QB gets rid of the ball to some degree. Having a short "time to throw" doesn't mean it was necessarily because the clock ran out and the offensive line gave out. It's simply how long that QB has/takes to throw on average.

Some QBs on the list are there because there offensive line stinks and they don't have time. Some QBs low on the list are there because they get rid of it so quickly (Brady). By the way - QBs that do that make their lines look a ton better than they actually are.

I think Kirk is somewhere in between. There are times the line caves on him, there are times when he gets it out quickly, there are times when he holds it too long.

A better offensive line would be a huge help, of course, but that's not going to change now.

[808vikingsfan]

This:

Is why people think he holds the ball too long. The three best pure pocket passers in the NFL get rid of the ball quickly, because they know they have to too avoid sacks. That is how they help their lines out and a lot of times make them look better than they really are. Cousins holds the ball way too long for a pure pocket passer without an amazing line in front of him. It is a bad habit he developed when he had all day to throw his first two seasons in Washington. It was my biggest concern when the Vikings were looking to sign him outside of his bad record versus good teams.
I think even you have to admit Cousins is making this line look worse than they really are. Of his two sacks Sunday, the one that happened in the SHORTEST amount of time occurred in 3.4 seconds, which is on the QB. The first sack was especially bad, with both Diggs and Thielen wide open for decent gains. If a QB isn’t going to scramble, they have to get rid of the ball quickly. Cousins refuses to do either, and people are shocked he is facing a ton of pressure?

Keep in mind that number is also going to reflect how quickly a QB gets rid of the ball to some degree. Having a short "time to throw" doesn't mean it was necessarily because the clock ran out and the offensive line gave out. It's simply how long that QB has/takes to throw on average.

Some QBs on the list are there because there offensive line stinks and they don't have time. Some QBs low on the list are there because they get rid of it so quickly (Brady). By the way - QBs that do that make their lines look a ton better than they actually are.

I think Kirk is somewhere in between. There are times the line caves on him, there are times when he gets it out quickly, there are times when he holds it too long.

A better offensive line would be a huge help, of course, but that's not going to change now.

TT is not a stat but a measurement.

Time To Throw (TT)
Time to Throw measures the average amount of time elapsed from the time of snap to throw on every pass attempt for a passer (sacks excluded).

I'm not sure if I'd put Cousins in between. Because he rarely buys time for himself, that 2.67s is pretty close to the time he has in the pocket. If you take time gained from scrambling out of the equation, my guess is Cousins shoots all the way up in the top 10.

[StumpHunter]

Keep in mind that number is also going to reflect how quickly a QB gets rid of the ball to some degree. Having a short "time to throw" doesn't mean it was necessarily because the clock ran out and the offensive line gave out. It's simply how long that QB has/takes to throw on average.

Some QBs on the list are there because there offensive line stinks and they don't have time. Some QBs low on the list are there because they get rid of it so quickly (Brady). By the way - QBs that do that make their lines look a ton better than they actually are.

I think Kirk is somewhere in between. There are times the line caves on him, there are times when he gets it out quickly, there are times when he holds it too long.

A better offensive line would be a huge help, of course, but that's not going to change now.

It would help and it definitely did in Washington. He was a much better QB when he had all day to throw in his first and second season as a full time starter.

[MrPurplenGold]

Kirk cousins has never won more than 9 games in a season and may not win more than 9 games this season. For all the "statistical" hype around him, he sure doesn't do a lot of winning, even when he does have a good offensive line.

[Cliff]

Kirk cousins has never won more than 9 games in a season and may not win more than 9 games this season. For all the "statistical" hype around him, he sure doesn't do a lot of winning, even when he does have a good offensive line.

I don't think it's fair to put the mostly terrible performance of Washington all on Cousins. His stats basically show that he wasn't the reason they lost. The same is mostly true for the Vikings as well. He's laid a couple of eggs but overall I think his stats reflect reality; he's not the reason the team has lost so many games.

All my problems with Cousins are in hindsight. I hoped that he could come in and really take the offense to the next level. I thought if Keenum could do that well with those weapons that Cousins would probably blow his performance out of the water. Now that I know that Cousins isn't as significant of an upgrade (at least for this team) as I had hoped it doesn't seem worth it. Even if you disagree with that you have to agree it hasn't translated into wins so it doesn't matter much.

Knowing what I know now I think it would have been better to draft a QB in a higher round and keep Keenum. Maybe even keep Bridgewater fighting for 2nd or 3rd with the rookie.

[Mothman]

Kirk cousins has never won more than 9 games in a season and may not win more than 9 games this season. For all the "statistical" hype around him, he sure doesn't do a lot of winning, even when he does have a good offensive line.

I don't think it's fair to put the mostly terrible performance of Washington all on Cousins. His stats basically show that he wasn't the reason they lost. The same is mostly true for the Vikings as well. He's laid a couple of eggs but overall I think his stats reflect reality; he's not the reason the team has lost so many games.

All my problems with Cousins are in hindsight. I hoped that he could come in and really take the offense to the next level. I thought if Keenum could do that well with those weapons that Cousins would probably blow his performance out of the water. Now that I know that Cousins isn't as significant of an upgrade (at least for this team) as I had hoped it doesn't seem worth it. Even if you disagree with that you have to agree it hasn't translated into wins so it doesn't matter much.

I don't think he's worth what they paid either but now that the damage is done contract-wise, I hope they can make the most of it. I think FiestaVike had the right idea a few pages upthread: Cousins will be at his best in a controlled environment, throwing the ball about 25 times per game behind a good OL and with an effective running game. Putting games on his shoulders again and again with 40+ pass attempts is a losing strategy.

[VikingLord]

I think FiestaVike had the right idea a few pages upthread: Cousins will be at his best in a controlled environment, throwing the ball about 25 times per game behind a good OL and with an effective running game. Putting games on his shoulders again and again with 40+ pass attempts is a losing strategy.

That is a losing strategy in the NFL for pretty much *any* QB. Even the great QBs need a credible run game sometimes. Maybe a pass-heavy strategy can work for some QBs against certain defenses, but I've yet to see a team advance far into the playoffs without at least some balance on offense. As the defenses get better and the stakes get larger, one-dimensional teams get sent home.

Speaking of one-dimensional offenses, the upcoming opponent has one. The Seahawks are getting away with it mostly because Wilson is making the most of his relatively few passing attempts, so defenses can't simply focus on stopping the Seahawk running game. But I think this will catch up to Seattle in the playoffs should they make it there. The Seahawks have definitely surprised to the upside this season, but in many ways they are no more balanced on offense than the Vikings.

I'll also say this - I don't think Cousins is even close to the reason this team has struggled against better teams this year. He's part of it, sure, but the problems go way beyond him. We've seen dropped passes that should have been caught (Treadwell, anyone?), critical execution mistakes on offense (Thielen's fumble against New Orleans...), an inability to consistently run (Cook's injury didn't help, but the team still can't rely on their running game to get critical yards), offensive line issues partly caused by injury, partly caused by subpar and inconsistent play from guys who, prior to this season, gave us reason to expect better. You have almost historically poor performance from special teams. Not just missed field goals, but blocked punts too. And then you have a defense that, for all intents and purposes, is about as reliable as the running game. Loads of talent, perhaps the most talented group across the board in the NFL. But they are as inconsistent as they are talented, and to boot, they look unprepared for their opponents many times and almost play like they think they believe their hype.

So there is just a cacophony of issues with this year's Vikings. Cousins has had his share in them, but even if he was playing as well as Brees I don't think the results this year would be much better overall.

This team NEEDS to show up against the Seahawks and over-perform what they've shown so far this year. For all 4 quarters.

[StumpHunter]

So there is just a cacophony of issues with this year's Vikings. Cousins has had his share in them, but even if he was playing as well as Brees I don't think the results this year would be much better overall.

If Cousins were playing as well as Brees, we are at least a couple of games better in the win department, which is a HUGE difference.

I think that is what Cousins is, just a couple of games worse than the great QBs in the NFL. Which is why he has been 8-8, 9-7 instead of 10-6, 11-5 throughout his career. Winning two games a lesser QB wouldn't is why the great ones are consistently in the playoffs and why guys like Stafford are consistently out of them.

[808vikingsfan]

Kirk cousins has never won more than 9 games in a season and may not win more than 9 games this season. For all the "statistical" hype around him, he sure doesn't do a lot of winning, even when he does have a good offensive line.

I don't think it's fair to put the mostly terrible performance of Washington all on Cousins. His stats basically show that he wasn't the reason they lost. The same is mostly true for the Vikings as well. He's laid a couple of eggs but overall I think his stats reflect reality; he's not the reason the team has lost so many games.

All my problems with Cousins are in hindsight. I hoped that he could come in and really take the offense to the next level. I thought if Keenum could do that well with those weapons that Cousins would probably blow his performance out of the water. Now that I know that Cousins isn't as significant of an upgrade (at least for this team) as I had hoped it doesn't seem worth it. Even if you disagree with that you have to agree it hasn't translated into wins so it doesn't matter much.

Knowing what I know now I think it would have been better to draft a QB in a higher round and keep Keenum. Maybe even keep Bridgewater fighting for 2nd or 3rd with the rookie.

Always wondered about Lamar Jackson.

As far as Cousins and winning, I really think there's a correlation there. Before coming to Minn, my main beef (and most Redskins fans) with him was his erratic decision making on crucial downs. Look at the Vikings stats on 3rd down and in the redzone. They're way down from last year. Time and time again, Cousins does not deliver in these situations. I'd rather have a guy with mediocre stats, mediocre arm, but comes thru in the clutch when needed.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Kirk cousins has never won more than 9 games in a season and may not win more than 9 games this season. For all the "statistical" hype around him, he sure doesn't do a lot of winning, even when he does have a good offensive line.

Well In Washington he had a bottom 3 defense all 3 years and had a bottom 10 rushing offense. If Kirk cousins didn’t play for them, they’d probably have about 2 wins. He was the only reason they were .500

[Bowhunting Viking]

I am not a guy that is gonna throw out a bunch of stats to try and make my point or argue. I'm a 54 yr old here in NW Ohio who is in a very small group of absolute die hard Vikes fans, have been since I was in Viking pj's and my little JC Penney helmet. I've lived and breathed Viking football ever since and still have all my memorabilia hanging in my basement Valhalla Cave.
I also have a unique experience in this Cousins debate because as I've posted before I personally know , and his older brother is my supervisor at work, Cousins starting center for his entire career except last season, due to his retirement. His ,not his dad or his brothers, HIS words to me when we traded for Cousins were as follows.
" Kirk's a great leader and a great guy off the field. We loved him and his leadership and he is very competitive. He said hes got all bvb the talent." Then he shot my enthusiasm down when he said " Bad thing is he will break your heart when it matters most."
Alot of games this season those words have rang in my ears and haunted me.
I myself haven't given up on him. I hope they get the problems straightened out.
Fix the O line, start with better play calling from Flip (if he is still here), and start utilizing weapons better.
I personally want Cousins to prove those words wrong. Actually I want the WHOLE team to stop breaking our hearts.
I'm not giving up. Haven't yet and never will. No matter what I will stay loyal.
But i will admit i expected more than what I've seen so far.

[fiestavike]

I am not a guy that is gonna throw out a bunch of stats to try and make my point or argue. I'm a 54 yr old here in NW Ohio who is in a very small group of absolute die hard Vikes fans, have been since I was in Viking pj's and my little JC Penney helmet. I've lived and breathed Viking football ever since and still have all my memorabilia hanging in my basement Valhalla Cave.
I also have a unique experience in this Cousins debate because as I've posted before I personally know , and his older brother is my supervisor at work, Cousins starting center for his entire career except last season, due to his retirement. His ,not his dad or his brothers, HIS words to me when we traded for Cousins were as follows.
" Kirk's a great leader and a great guy off the field. We loved him and his leadership and he is very competitive. He said hes got all bvb the talent." Then he shot my enthusiasm down when he said " Bad thing is he will break your heart when it matters most."
Alot of games this season those words have rang in my ears and haunted me.
I myself haven't given up on him. I hope they get the problems straightened out.
Fix the O line, start with better play calling from Flip (if he is still here), and start utilizing weapons better.
I personally want Cousins to prove those words wrong. Actually I want the WHOLE team to stop breaking our hearts.
I'm not giving up. Haven't yet and never will. No matter what I will stay loyal.
But i will admit i expected more than what I've seen so far.

I have mostly left it behind this year. Its not because I'm disappointed in the W/L, its that I increasingly don't care. Its been an ongoing process for me. Mostly I don't enjoy the game the way its structured now. I've missed a lot of the games this year and found I didn't miss them at all. Frankly, I have better things to do. I'll be hoping the vikings win, but I don't die when they lose anymore. Not only is it just a game, its not even a very good game at this point.

Anyway, Cousins seems like a nice guy, a competitor, and a middling QB. He's better than Bradford but doesn't have a high ceiling. If the vikings want him to be successful, he needs to become a game manager. Ask him to be more than that and he won't succeed. 30 million is a lot to pay for a game manager, but I suppose its better to pay 30 million for a game manager and contend for a title than it is to spend 30 million for a bunch of stats and miss the playoffs. Of course that makes it hard to keep the defense and the core together going forward unless you draft really well. Part of the problem for this team is the lack of continuity. Changing QB and coordinator every year makes it hard to get the personnel you need to build a really great team. Keenum/Shurmur was a surprisingly good fit with the team we had last year. DeFilippo and Cousins not as much. We're stuck with Cousins so its a question of coordinator and personnel at this point. DeFilippo and Sloter would honestly be a better match but we all know that's not an option. Norv and Cousins would be a better option, but of course, that ship has sailed. I'd be inclined to go with Stefanski for the rest of the season and see he is can solve anything. Maybe let him figure out what he'll need for next season to make it work. He also gives us a little bit of continuity.