Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by S197 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:34 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:29 am
A few thoughts on this to stir the pot:

1.) How does this compare with other GMs around the league. Can't really say Rick sucks if you do not have a point of comparison? This applies both to OL Drafting and Drafting in general.
That's more work than I care to do but I'm going to venture missing on 8 lineman over a 5-year span (2012-2016) is going to be at the bottom. Even if you don't blame Spielman for Kalil, Clemmings & Beavers were very poor picks. Like I said, he seems to have more focus on the line in the last two years but that doesn't detract from the fact that it was neglected for a very long time. And the OL hasn't been good in I can't remember how long so at least anecdotally, he's done a below average job.
2.) Some won't like to hear this, but NOT drafting heavily in OL early IS a strategy.
Yes, it's a strategy but it's a strategy that hasn't worked.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by S197 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:48 pm

Also the Cowboys analogy is unfounded, we've invested nowhere near the amount of draft capital in our line as I've clearly shown. I'm not talking about filling our line with 1st and 2nd round picks, but one here or there would make a big difference. Versus the revolving door of 4th, 5th, 6th rounders that haven't panned out.

Did we really need Hughes when we had Rhodes, Waynes and Alexander? Again, real tough to say secondary wasn't deep when Holton Hill goes undrafted. Grabbing a slot corner in the 3rd or 4th would have been an option.

Spielman has done well finding guys in mid-rounds at certain positions. DL is a good example with picks like Griffen, Robison, and Hunter. Gedeon, while not great, was a good pickup. Harris/Kearse in the backfield. And then of course there's Diggs & Thielen. So I'm far from saying Spielman sucks as a GM, I actually think overall he's done a good job, but being able to identify OL talent? Yeah, I've seen enough to say he sucks at it. I'm sure some of that has to do with the evolution of college football but that's a challenge every GM faces.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by mansquatch » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:16 pm

I agree on Hughes being a bad choice, said that earlier. They really had no need at CB, at least not when compared to the issue at Guard.

To Spileman's credit, you look up and down this roster and basically every other position group is strong with two glaring exceptions... K and OL. Some of it came from drafting and some from FA. Coaching is a big part of it as well. When Frasier was here we'd probably all argue that the entire secondary was a major weakness. Not any more.

My view on a lot of this is that we haven't found the right "cocktail" between talent and talent developers at these two positions. As bad as this has been on the OL, I actually think the issues is more glaring at Kicker. Mike Priefer for whatever reason has a real problem turning out a quality NFL Kicker. It has been a mess for quite a some time.

OL is IMO, in a similar place. It felt like last year with Sparano that maybe they were turning corner after jettisoning Jeff Davidson following the 2015 season.. In a lot of ways this season feels similar to 2016 within this group . They've had some injuries, although not to the degree we saw in 2016. They are learning on the job and adapting to a new coaching style with the guys who took over after Sparanos tragic death.

I'm becoming more convinced that the OL issue is as much about the OL Coach as it is the GM. It all needs to get better. But as PHP and I frequently point out: At what cost? I think that is the real rub. IMO, they are not prioritizing this group in terms of draft equity vs other areas. OK, but as you, SI, pointed out, it isn't working out that great.

And Hunter just came across as not practicing today... The 2018 curse continues... UGH.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:43 pm

S197 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:48 pm
Also the Cowboys analogy is unfounded, we've invested nowhere near the amount of draft capital in our line as I've clearly shown. I'm not talking about filling our line with 1st and 2nd round picks, but one here or there would make a big difference. Versus the revolving door of 4th, 5th, 6th rounders that haven't panned out.

Did we really need Hughes when we had Rhodes, Waynes and Alexander? Again, real tough to say secondary wasn't deep when Holton Hill goes undrafted. Grabbing a slot corner in the 3rd or 4th would have been an option.

Spielman has done well finding guys in mid-rounds at certain positions. DL is a good example with picks like Griffen, Robison, and Hunter. Gedeon, while not great, was a good pickup. Harris/Kearse in the backfield. And then of course there's Diggs & Thielen. So I'm far from saying Spielman sucks as a GM, I actually think overall he's done a good job, but being able to identify OL talent? Yeah, I've seen enough to say he sucks at it. I'm sure some of that has to do with the evolution of college football but that's a challenge every GM faces.
I've said this before, but I think it's more a matter of philosophy with Spielman, rather than ability to spot O-line talent. I think his overall philosophy is to draft low and develop. Reasonable people can debate whether that's a good strategy ... it's worked for some teams ... but I really think that's it. The Vikings haven't exactly killed it with that philosophy, but it sure seems like that's what they try to do.

Also, I don't know that he's THAT bad at drafting. Matt Kalil was very highly regarded across the board when he came out, and he had a killer rookie season, making the Pro Bowl. After that ... who the heck knows what happened? And Phil Loadholt was a good player. But yeah, high draft picks on O-linemen have been few and far between.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by PurpleMustReign » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:15 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:43 pm
I've said this before, but I think it's more a matter of philosophy with Spielman, rather than ability to spot O-line talent. I think his overall philosophy is to draft low and develop. Reasonable people can debate whether that's a good strategy ... it's worked for some teams ... but I really think that's it. The Vikings haven't exactly killed it with that philosophy, but it sure seems like that's what they try to do.

Also, I don't know that he's THAT bad at drafting. Matt Kalil was very highly regarded across the board when he came out, and he had a killer rookie season, making the Pro Bowl. After that ... who the heck knows what happened? And Phil Loadholt was a good player. But yeah, high draft picks on O-linemen have been few and far between.
I think spielman generally takes talent that needs to be developed. He rarely drafts anyone who plays much their first year. That soeaks to team depth but I also think he looks for guys with high ceilings no matter where they are now.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:16 am

S197 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:48 pm
Also the Cowboys analogy is unfounded, we've invested nowhere near the amount of draft capital in our line as I've clearly shown. I'm not talking about filling our line with 1st and 2nd round picks, but one here or there would make a big difference. Versus the revolving door of 4th, 5th, 6th rounders that haven't panned out.

Did we really need Hughes when we had Rhodes, Waynes and Alexander? Again, real tough to say secondary wasn't deep when Holton Hill goes undrafted. Grabbing a slot corner in the 3rd or 4th would have been an option.

Spielman has done well finding guys in mid-rounds at certain positions. DL is a good example with picks like Griffen, Robison, and Hunter. Gedeon, while not great, was a good pickup. Harris/Kearse in the backfield. And then of course there's Diggs & Thielen. So I'm far from saying Spielman sucks as a GM, I actually think overall he's done a good job, but being able to identify OL talent? Yeah, I've seen enough to say he sucks at it. I'm sure some of that has to do with the evolution of college football but that's a challenge every GM faces.
Well did anyone have that much confidence that Alexander could take over the slot role full time this year? I didnt. I was very unsure about it.

Holton Hill went undrafted due to off the field concerns. He wasnt just passed over for no reason. So that argument doesnt carry much weight.

As for Hughes, yeah we didnt NEED him. But we also werent drafting by need. We were drafting by BPA. And when we picked, he was BPA by far and also brought other attributes like KR and PR. Also, with Newman retiring, Alexander being a questionable nickel CB and having no depth behind any of them, I would say it was more of a need that people think. If Rhodes or Waynes happened to go down for the year, what are we left with? It wouldnt be good. Losing Hughes for the year already hurts this defensive backfield slightly. We're one injury away from being in rough shape at CB
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:18 am

mansquatch wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:16 pm
I agree on Hughes being a bad choice, said that earlier. They really had no need at CB, at least not when compared to the issue at Guard.

To Spileman's credit, you look up and down this roster and basically every other position group is strong with two glaring exceptions... K and OL. Some of it came from drafting and some from FA. Coaching is a big part of it as well. When Frasier was here we'd probably all argue that the entire secondary was a major weakness. Not any more.

My view on a lot of this is that we haven't found the right "cocktail" between talent and talent developers at these two positions. As bad as this has been on the OL, I actually think the issues is more glaring at Kicker. Mike Priefer for whatever reason has a real problem turning out a quality NFL Kicker. It has been a mess for quite a some time.

OL is IMO, in a similar place. It felt like last year with Sparano that maybe they were turning corner after jettisoning Jeff Davidson following the 2015 season.. In a lot of ways this season feels similar to 2016 within this group . They've had some injuries, although not to the degree we saw in 2016. They are learning on the job and adapting to a new coaching style with the guys who took over after Sparanos tragic death.

I'm becoming more convinced that the OL issue is as much about the OL Coach as it is the GM. It all needs to get better. But as PHP and I frequently point out: At what cost? I think that is the real rub. IMO, they are not prioritizing this group in terms of draft equity vs other areas. OK, but as you, SI, pointed out, it isn't working out that great.

And Hunter just came across as not practicing today... The 2018 curse continues... UGH.
Regarding Hughes, being a bad choice, I dont necessarily agree. Refer to my post above this one
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by mansquatch » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:20 am

Yeah, but PHP we ARE in tough shape on the OL.

I could see an argument that the drop off from startnig CB to backups might be more precipitous to our win chances than the drop off from starting OL to backup OL in which case the Hughes pick makes a little more sense. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, when we drafted Hughes we didn't know Easton was going to be on IR before the season started or that Sparano was going to die. So with those cards still on the table the choice between Hughes and Hernandez probably wasn't AS obvious, but still they needed Guard BAD.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:14 am

mansquatch wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:20 am
Yeah, but PHP we ARE in tough shape on the OL.

I could see an argument that the drop off from startnig CB to backups might be more precipitous to our win chances than the drop off from starting OL to backup OL in which case the Hughes pick makes a little more sense. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, when we drafted Hughes we didn't know Easton was going to be on IR before the season started or that Sparano was going to die. So with those cards still on the table the choice between Hughes and Hernandez probably wasn't AS obvious, but still they needed Guard BAD.
I agree with what you're saying here but at the same time, this OL isnt in AS bad of shape if they had the right guys starting and the right guys on the bench IMO. Let's put it this way, it's hard to get any worse. OL is a problem right now no doubt. But what bothers me is nobody can tell me that a combo of (from left to right): O'Neill, Jones, Elflein, Remmers, Reiff is WORSE than what we currently have out there. Of even insert Isidora in there somewhere. But you cant tell me it would be worse. Rashod Hill is one of the worst starting tackles in the league and is continuing to get the nod at RT and NOW LT with Reiff being out. Many fans keep saying we need a guard desperately. I think we need a tackle more. And O'Neill is here. I can bet money that the Reiff/Hill combo is giving up just as many or more pressures than the Remmers/Compton combo.

This article shares a similar opinion to mine:
Reiff and Remmers held up well in 2017, but both have struggled in 2018. Reiff has been perhaps the poster child for the Vikings' struggles, headlined by a performance where he gave up 12 pressures on his own against the Buffalo Bills in Week 3, while Remmers has been kicked inside to guard and has been out of position at times. Rashod Hill, the starting right tackle, has been hobbled at times by an injury, but also seems to struggle against the best competition he sees.
The point here is that it is not really just one player that is not getting the job done. There are breakdowns and poor performance across the board here and it is to the point where a shakeup probably needs to take place. This unit is not getting any better, and the argument can be made they have gotten a bit worse each week. How it gets fixed is anyone's guess, but there are still players on the bench in Brett Jones, the guard/center who was traded for during the preseason, Danny Isidora and 2018 second-round pick Brian O'Neill. If what they have gotten is what they are going to get, they really do not have much to lose by potentially inserting Isidora or O'Neill into the lineup if it comes to that. If you are going to struggle, struggle with a purpose of getting draft picks repetitions to see what you have.

Also, what is the difference between Hernandez and Josh Jackson VS Mike Hughes and Brian O'Neill?? Jackson looked good in preseason action but has been very up and down during the regular season. The Giants offensive line is probably one of the only lines worse than ours right now (however we are ranked 24th currently according to PFF). Giants are 31st. That is with Will Hernandez. Point being, Will Hernandez isnt necessarily making a terrible OL any better, you need a lot more pieces to do that. So I'm not sure what fans would think he would do here. It's not like Will Hernandez comes in and saves the day for our OL like some may think. Brian O'Neill excels more in pass blocking where Hernandez is more run blocking. Hernandez is good dont get me wrong. But Brian O'Neill has played lights out in 4 games too.

So all in all, did we really lose out with our first two picks? Compared to going with Hernandez and Jackson. I look at it as a wash or that we gained a slight edge with the selections we made. The fact that Brian O'Neill is continuing to sit the bench isnt on Brian ONeill. It's on Zim being stubborn. Who knows if Hernandez would've started here either? Zim likes to play these little games sometimes with some rookies where he doesnt give them any time until they are forced to go in. If they are better than who is starting, PLAY THEM. What are you waiting for? I just dont understand how you can sit there each week watching film and watch Rashod Hill and Riley Reiff getting embarrassed and you continue to leave him on the bench. Is it Spielman that isnt seeing the OL talent or is it Zimmer? I'm starting to wonder. Riley Reiff has given up 6 TIMES the amount of pressures in ONE game, than O'Neill has in FOUR games. Let that sink in. Rashod Hill, I cant even begin to count the amount of pressures he has given up.

I guess in the end, I dont understand how someone could say "yeah we botched the 2018 draft" (7 weeks into the year no less) by getting Hughes and O'Neill but say we "crushed the drafted in 2018" by taking Hernandez and Jackson. If anything, it's a wash or even us having the upper hand
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by S197 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:12 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:20 am
Yeah, but PHP we ARE in tough shape on the OL.

I could see an argument that the drop off from startnig CB to backups might be more precipitous to our win chances than the drop off from starting OL to backup OL in which case the Hughes pick makes a little more sense. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, when we drafted Hughes we didn't know Easton was going to be on IR before the season started or that Sparano was going to die. So with those cards still on the table the choice between Hughes and Hernandez probably wasn't AS obvious, but still they needed Guard BAD.
Exactly. Anyone using the depth argument seems to be forgetting the fact that we had Cornelius Edison as a STARTER for the entire offseason. I don't know what can speak to more lack of depth than that.

Sure, losing Rhodes or Waynes results in a big dropoff but that's the case at just about every position except perhaps safety. The problem is we didn't even have a starting guard let alone depth.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by S197 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:20 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:43 pm
I've said this before, but I think it's more a matter of philosophy with Spielman, rather than ability to spot O-line talent. I think his overall philosophy is to draft low and develop. Reasonable people can debate whether that's a good strategy ... it's worked for some teams ... but I really think that's it. The Vikings haven't exactly killed it with that philosophy, but it sure seems like that's what they try to do.

Also, I don't know that he's THAT bad at drafting. Matt Kalil was very highly regarded across the board when he came out, and he had a killer rookie season, making the Pro Bowl. After that ... who the heck knows what happened? And Phil Loadholt was a good player. But yeah, high draft picks on O-linemen have been few and far between.
I think it's definitely been his philosophy but it's one that hasn't worked. Maybe he's adjusting based on the last couple of years, we'll see.

I don't ding him for Kalil as I've mentioned because he was just about the unanimous best LT, or so everyone thought. But lets be honest, almost everyone on this forum can make those picks. And it frequently happens. Kalil, Loadholt, Elflein, these are guys that were talked about, mocked, etc., by many forum members. If you read the old draft threads, they're all mentioned and many people were ecstatic when they were drafted. A true GM earns his paycheck in the later rounds where it gets really muddy.

You earn your paycheck on guys like Griffen, Diggs, and Thielen. Even grabbing solid role players like a Kearse, Gedeon, Morgan, etc. And also via free agency with pickups like Linval. Unfortunately, the OL is absent these hits. Perhaps it's a scouting issue but 5 years straight of missing on every OL pick is pretty damning evidence.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:44 pm

S197 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:12 pm
The problem is we didn't even have a starting guard let alone depth.
This!! Silly to go BPA when we don't have a starter at 2 out of 5 positions on the oline.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:47 pm

For what it’s worth, did anyone see Hernandez get embarrassed multiple times tonight? And many of them being on running plays where he excels. Not trying to compare players but I haven’t seen that happen to oneill yet this year. It was pretty bad
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:45 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:47 pm
For what it’s worth, did anyone see Hernandez get embarrassed multiple times tonight? And many of them being on running plays where he excels. Not trying to compare players but I haven’t seen that happen to oneill yet this year. It was pretty bad
1. He's a rookie
2. Its one game
3. He was up against a top 4 guy at his position

Oneil hasn't been tested the same (Jets LDE, Cards LDE) but yes Hernandez had a poor game last night. Let's throw out his other 6 strong games. If only there was a way to draft both guys.
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Re: Fustrated with lack of changes on Oline

Post by PacificNorseWest » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:52 pm

Nah..stop. Hernandez looked horrible and has from the jump. Hughes' one pick 6 did more for the Vikings this season than Hernandez has for 7 games with the Giants. And that's not counting the counter-productivity of having him in that lineup.

Ya'll need to let go. You just don't draft an offensive lineman for the f of it. The Vikings got value and a contributor (unfortunately, he is now hurt, but you don't predict that stuff) and still got a lineman in O'neill who looks much better than Hernandez does...There's definite value in that.
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