From Judd Zulgad:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Perc ... g_us102912

Oh boy, I bet there are 7 phases of failing as a team. And we're right around phase 3 or 4. "Bringing up fundamentals" being right in the middle somewhere.

We didn't need the focus last week, but now? Fundamentals here we come!

Same old song and dance.

Pretty soon we'll get the stories about how Ponder needs to step forward more, or square up his shoulders, or keep his elbow high, or some other nonsense as he continues to struggle.

*sigh*

I don't think poor fundamentals is an excuse. In fact, I think Harvin is right. Both the offense and defense have exhibited poor fundamentals during key moments lately.

I see some of it coming from talent gaps that are present on the roster. But some of it, maybe too much of it, is also from a general lack of concentration as well.

I find it hard to believe that they are just now figuring out that fundamentals are lacking. It will be curious next game if there is any difference in the offense. If there is, then someone needs to light a fire more often for these guys.

Fundamentals like "our QB is not good".

I din't think it's that the coaches are just recognizing a season-long problem now. They're probably reinforcing fundamentals that have slipped a little. Players have shifted into some bad habits or lost a little discipline over the past few games. It happens to every team at times and a big part of coaching is just reinforcing responsibilities, good habits, good technique, etc.

That's canned coach-speak, repeated on every Pop Warner practice field in the nation 500 times a day. It sounds like Musgrave is trying to convince the players that there's nothing wrong with the play-calling or the scheme. It's not being executed correctly. Just a matter of fixing a few fundamentals.

Can't really blame Percy for repeating it. The guy is incredibly talented, but he's not the brightest bulb. He whined during the off-season, now he's getting his touches and buying into whatever BS they're feeding him.

It's obviously not being executed correctly.

Based on what I've read about Musgrave I have little doubt that he's re-examining what he's doing too. However, comments like one you referred to are "canned coach speak" for a reason: that's what coaches are supposed to do. They're supposed to teach players how to properly execute plays. Doing so is just doing their job and it doesn't necessarily reflect a coach trying to cover his ####.



You and Demi have me just shaking my head in this thread. Are you guys seeing flawless execution in these games? If not, then why are you responding so cynically to a report about the coaches reinforcing fundamentals when fundamentals clearly need to be reinforced?

I see a quarter back who's quickly losing his confidence due to his repeated mistakes, and an offense that's been dumbed-down to meet his limitations. I see a world-class running back that's been underutilized. I see a whiney star WR (that's redundant, isn't it?) with more talent than most teams have combined, who's been appeased by using him in the most mundane ways imaginable. I see a coaching staff looking for answers and falling back on cliches.

Can anyone explain what is meant by the above? Ponder is not "looking on the right side of the read"? What could that mean, and how does his failure to do it correspond to his recent struggles?

With Ponder, for me 90% of his issues are caused by an inability to read the field (at all) because he's more worried about getting hit than getting the pass off, coupled with terrible mechanics caused mainly by the fact that he's either falling backwards when he throws, he's running sideways and backwards when he throws, or he's even partially or totally left the ground when he throws. Without a stable base it's very hard to throw with pace and accuracy even if the read is correct (witness a few blatantly bad misses on simple dump offs in recent games). So Ponder has to stop his happy feet and get his brain refocused not so much on the pressure and more on his options and footwork to deliver the ball on time where it needs to go.

Seattle will provide an excellent measuring stick for Ponder at this point. Good defense, road game in a loud stadium, and a few terrible performances in a row behind him. Now is the time when Ponder is either going to show he can get it under control and make the necessary adjustments, or whether he's going to keep spiraling down to earth. As much as I expect him to keep spiraling, I'm hoping against hope he can do what needs to be done and start to turn things around.

What does either have to do with picking up a blitz or blocking a rushing DE? What does either have to do with running a route correctly?



I see a hardened cynic.

I see some of those things too but none of that changes the fact that fundamentals clearly need to be reinforced.

I don't know what you want the coaching staff to say or do. I think they should try to get more creative but I don't know if it will work. This offense isn't simply being "dumbed down" for Ponder. The scheme is pretty obviously a consequence of limitations and not just the QB's limitations. I've been saying all season that shortcomings elsewhere on offense have just as much to do with it and the more we see defenses put eight men in the box and blitz to fill gaps, pressure the QB and take away running lanes, the more we see the limitations of players other than the QB. The receivers have a hard time beating single coverage down the field and pass protection issues abound. Short passes aren't just a way to help the QB, they're a method of dealing with pressure and compensating for a receiving corps that has a hard time getting open once they get into the coverage.

Ponder's confidence does look shaken but I'm betting that has much to do with how hard it is to make plays now that these offensive weaknesses are being further exposed as it does with his own mistakes. Take away Harvin, contain Peterson and who is Ponder going to beat a defense with play after play? Who can beat single coverage?

I'm convinced that's why they're throwing to Simpson so much because if he's not the answer to that question, I'm not sure they have one.

I'm not sure how to interpret it. I haven't seen that exact turn of phrase before. I'm guessing it either means looking to the single receiver side in 3 WR sets or else Zulgad literally means looking to the right side of the field. Maybe he's talking about pre-snap reads... I don't know.



Frankly, I just don't see that and I've been looking for it because you keep talking about it. He seems to read the field fairly well and I don't get the feeling he's more worried about getting hit than getting the pass off. Most of the time, when he runs, he runs to extend plays and looks for someone to get open. I do agree that he gets his feet in bad positions at times though.

What are you seeing that leads you to believe Ponder isn't able to read the field at all most of the time?

So this huge surge in missed tackles by the defense, the OL being somewhat abysmal in the passing game aren't related to basic football fundamentals? The Vikings, on a basic level, have been regressing more then anything. Missed tackles, bad pass blocking, and increased penalties have been a big factor in the past 3 games. It isn't an excuse, but it is a trend that has been gaining steam and inhibiting the full (but limited) potential of this team.

^^^^^

The Rudolph TD in the San Fran game comes to mind. The last interception vs Tampa also comes to mind. Also fresh in my memory is the pass right before the half vs Tampa where he was almost picked off trying to force a ball to Simpson when Harvin was open 10 yards out with no one around him, AND HARVIN WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF SIMPSON. Its first read or no read with this QB. And his decision making has been far into questionable status.

I think his overall point, and alot of points here, is that the venomous mistakes being made fall on the QB. Want to talk fundamentals? ANY average QB can make a hot read on a blitz, except ours. He's below average at best. Read progression is a fundamental aspect of quarterbacking, this is confusing for our boy. And don't tell me that "he's still developing" because you look through receivers THE SAME WAY IN THE NFL AS YOU WOULD IN FLAG FOOTBALL. He's blind, either blind or lazy and thinks he's so secure that he can just loligag through the season because no one expected much. Make a few seasons of complete suckage and take his degree and money and start a business or something. This guy will be a backup within 3 years, hopefully sooner.

And expect arseloads of zero blitzes from here on out. Tampa didn't just have a gameplan, they just exposed our QB for what he is. They revealed his secret identity. He can't handle a blitz. Blitzing is a gamble, we all know this. Its why teams don't blitz every down, because the chance for a strike is there everytime you do with the decreased defenders in the secondary. Thats the problem, YOU BLITZ PONDER ITS NOT GAMBLING, ITS A SURE THING. They will not pay for sending 8 with man coverage. It hasn't happened yet and it probably won't happen ever.

So I really expect this to be a recurring theme for the rest of the season, until this clown proves he can make a throw under pressure, which I doubt he can more than 10% of the time.

I think the last two are more indicative of Ponder pressing and trying to force a play when there isn't one there than of an inability to read the defense. There's a difference between a QB not understanding what he sees in front of him and a QB trying to make an ill-advised throw because he believes he can do it or because he's pressing too hard to make something happen in a late half or late game situation.

I assume the TD you referred to is the second one Ponder threw to Rudolph in the SF game. AD was wide open on that play but it also looked like he was directly behind the unblocked, blitzing LB in Ponder's line of sight. Ponder may have missed him because his view was blocked or he might have just decided throwing to Rudolph was a better idea than trying to throw right at a blitzing LB. Either way, the result was a TD. Not bad...

I'm not claiming Ponder doesn't struggle with some things (he clearly does) but I don't see evidence that "90% of his issues are caused by an inability to read the field (at all)".

Regarding VikingLord's question about "looking on the right side of the read": the more I think about it, the more I wonder if it does refer to pre-snap reads. They often go from left to right, with the QB first looking at the left corner to see if he is lined up to play press or zone coverage, then to the safeties, the right corner, the LBs, back left again and so on.

I think you have a valid point, but I also think there is more to it. An example comes to mind where Simpson broke off his route due to the type of coverage he was getting to the DB. Ponder had a quick release and the only guy there was the DB. Part of chemisty is trusting a WR to run the correct route, but also knowing where the WR is going to be given what the defense shows. (this isn't new in the NFL, Chris Carter used to do this stuff and talked about it. The QB needs to be on the same page.)

IMO it is a massive amount of info to take in and get the ball out in under 5 seconds to the right guy with accuracy, zip, touch etc. All the while on the move. Ponder is a smart, thinking guy. My guess is he is getting more comfortable with the process, but still not 100% of the way there. (like all 2nd year QB) Part of it is also confidence. He is probably over thinking his throws right now because he is getting rattled from free running blitzers, out of position WR, the pressure of playing QB, etc.

IMO the Tampa game was probably ideal for this to happen. Ponder has a 10 day rest to regroup and "smell the roses". Then two games to make some adjustmetns followed by the bye week. It wouldn't surprise me to see him get a whole lot better in that time frame. We'll see.

That's true but on the play you're talking about, the DB was showing press coverage pre-snap so Ponder made the right pre-snap read. By the time the DB bailed to play the deep ball, the pass was in the air. Simpson hadn't even cut his route short yet. Now, it's possible that Ponder threw it too soon but it's also possible that it was a timed route and he was supposed to throw it quickly. There's no way to know. As I said before, all we can conclude from that play is that the QB and receiver weren't on the same page.

However, you're right that there's a lot to it and one of the many variables is that defenses are going to make good plays. On the play we're talking about, the defense did a great job of disguising their coverage OR the DB did a great job of reading the receiver post-snap and adjusted his technique.



I agree 100% and I should add that I don't doubt Ponder makes some mistakes in his reads and has plenty to learn about reading a defense and making adjustments. I just don't think his issues are as extreme as they're sometimes made out to be...



Hopefully, the time spent working on the blitz will be beneficial to Ponder and the rest of the offense. Maybe they will introduce some more audibles and hot reads as a response to what TB did.

So I thought about this for a second and whipped together a quick arm chair analysis on a hunch. The top 10 QB in 2011 based on passing yards (I know, not the best stat) had an average experience level of 8.1 seasons. That includes bench time for guys like Rogers. The anomalies on the list are Ryan at 5, Stafford at 4, and Newton at 2. Rogers is at 8 and everyone else is 9+. Notice there is just one guy on the list at 2 seasons and he is falling off hard and causing his team to lose right now. (Sound familiar anyone?) So one conclusion that can follow is that in most cases it takes time to reach the promised land for a QB.

Now, a lot of these guys are household names, such as Brady, Brees, etc. Someone could reach a different conclusion by saying the reason this list is full of veterans is because these guys have been good for YEARS and you would have a lower age if you ran in say 2009. (Maybe, you’d have Fav-Ruh on that list) In some cases that is probably right. However, take Brees, he was good prior to 2009, but wasn’t in the elite conversation until then. So even at that point he was 5-6 seasons in. Rogers rode the bench for 4 seasons learning and then still struggled for a couple of seasons before really blowing up in 2010. Eli Manning struggled his first few years before really taking off in 2007, ie season 4. Ryan is another example. He had been pretty good his first few years, but dismal in the playoffs. This resulted in the Falcons MTG the farm to get him Julio Jones and now in Ryan’s 4th season he looks to be entering that elite category.

Look it is far from a perfect analysis. Ultimately I think the question we all have is this: Does Ponder have what it takes to make the above list? I don’t know. However, I do think my little statistic shows that expecting pro bowl numbers out of the guy in season 2 is probably on the irrational side of what is normal in the NFL.

He played what, 10 games in 2011 and he is at week game 9 of 2012, so he is 19 games into his career. I say give it time. Even if you end up being right, you do not really KNOW he is bust, you just know he has had some bad numbers and bad decisions in the past 4 games.

That's a good point. Thanks for doing this. I think there are those that expect Pro-Bowl numbers, but could live with considerably less if Ponder showed an Alex Smith (on Monday night) type of command that leads drives, scores points and avoids turnovers. You know, the "Good" early-season Ponder.

Patience is always necessary for young starting quarterbacks but it seems in the last 5 years or so fans and ownership are demanding their high-round signal callers start producing/winning earlier than ever before. Guys like Cam Newton, RGIII and even Ryan and Flacco have raised the bar. It's unfortunate because, like you point out, it often takes more than two seasons. Continuity with coaching staff/coordinators is just as important as having a good supporting cast. Hopefully Ponder continues to show improvement (which is all many of us are looking for) and things really "click" with him as he gets more starts under his belt and perhaps another lethal wideout next season. Otherwise in a year or two we'll be buying a new lotto ticket just like so many other teams.

Thanks for the stats, Mansquatch (I still think that's one of the best internet handles of all time). Patience is definitely required. Whether it will be rewarded is a different story...



He still gives us glimpses of that type of command. He's just struggling with consistency and honestly, he struggled in that department at times earlier this season too. I'm obviously convinced that the performance of the players around him is having a pretty big impact on his game but that's not the whole story. He's young and he's going to experience the growing pains every NFL QB has to suffer. We just have to hope he comes out on the other side as the QB the Vikes need him to be.



That's true and one of the ironies of Ponder's situation is that the team IS winning this season. They're in contention to win their division. In fact, that's probably one of the reasons there's so much heat on him right now from frustrated fans. Hopes were raised and nobody wants them dashed.



I think part of the problem here is that Ponder doesn't have "elite prospect" credentials so not only are people impatient, they're not going to give him the benefit of the doubt because he has fantastic arm strength and running ability or the college resumé of someone like Andrew Luck. That's understandable and it means he'll have to work that much harder to convince the doubters and prove himself a worthy NFL starter.

It's not going to get any easier for him against an aggressive, attacking defense in Seattle.

Well, he's been consistently inconsistent as of late. So he's got that going for him.

But that's true. The problem is the team isn't sustaining drives and are going three-and-out FAR too frequently as of late (and at least it SEEMS far more than during the first four or five games). In addition, his turnovers have increased quite a bit. Many people could say that's now catching up to him (he had more than one ball dropped by defenders earlier in the season that probably should've been intercepted, despite that this also happens to all other QBs). Fair or not, a lot of people are pointing the offensive struggles resting with Ponder, whether or not those issues are fundamentally his issue or not. It's hard to argue when people say it all boils down to the "leader" and most valuable person on an NFL offense to be able to overcome the same issues facing many teams (some pressure, receivers unable to separate, etc.). The unit as a whole needs to improve, but Ponder shoulders some of the blame over the last sub-standard performances.



That's the issue right there. Which way does Ponder go from here on out? I'd accept a few stumbles if it means we also see some strides.



They certainly were. Nobody expected us to be this close to winning the division at this point. The more games we lose now, the sharper the pain (and there's always that nagging "worse draft pick" thing that could preclude us from getting that difference-maker we desperately need). Curse hope, cautious optimism and inadvertent raised expectations!



Right. Many look to where he was drafted (not where he maybe would've or should've been drafted) and expect him to live up to being selected #12 overall. There are certain expectations that come with a quarterback chosen that high, despite not possessing elite tools. It's easy to say that, right now, he's not living up to those expectations.



Or the rest of the season. In a way, we now get to see who Ponder really is. *gulp*

Well, you can count me as being one of the few that believe the entire passing game (aside from Harvin) is currently a malfunctioning unit. I don't know, maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there, but I sure believe there is more than one weak link in the chain.

Seriously now, I'm honestly not trying to make any excuses for Christian Ponder. It's just that when I rewind the plays and watch them again, I see red flags popping in different places. This is true of the pass protection (and I'm talking about both the OL and RBs, but especially the OL), the receivers being where they're supposed to be (whenever a replay of their route running is revealed), and yes, Ponder too. I also find myself occasionally questioning why a particular passing play was even called.

A pro bowl veteran QB would definitely help things along. But then a pro bowl veteran WR would really help as well, not to mention at least one or two more stud OL players. Or maybe and more realistically at this point, since this is still a rebuilding year, the team is going to have to take a step backward in order to take two steps forward with the passing game.

I would say no QB taken in the first round in the same draft as Ponder has lived up to expectation. Gabbert is abysmal. Locker is terrible. Dalton is okay, although if he did not have green, i think he would be bad. Cam was good last year, but is one of the worst this year. Ponders not great so far, but has shown some signs of hope. Just have to continue to be patient.

Oh, I don't think there is any doubt. It's out of the pan and into the fire for Ponder from now on.

I'm also interested in seeing if anyone else can step up. I'm still holding out hope for Jerome Simpson to be more of a force and I'm hoping the coaching staff will find ways to make that happen.

Absolutely but "some" is the key word. There are quite a few people trying to put the vast majority on him and that's just silly. He does need to be able to overcome some of the issues the team faces but that can only happen with sufficient support and when it fails, he fails. The opposite is also true. One of the things I found interesting when reviewing that Tampa Bay game was how many different ways the Vikings killed drives. They all did their part. Two different players lost fumbles. Blitzers came in unblocked and sacked the QB or disrupted plays so quickly there was nothing the QB could do. Blocks were missed on running plays, passes were dropped, passes were thrown poorly...everyone contributed to stalling drives. It's one thing to say the QB has to overcome pressure or covered receivers and Ponder did that at times but even when he does, someone has to come through for him at the other end of the play too. If he gets away and throws a catchable pass, that pass needs to be caught. If he dumps it to AD with a blocker in front of him, that blocker needs to do his job and spring AD for a first down. Too much of that stuff isn't happening right now.

I apologize. I know I'm preaching to the converted here. It's just that the Vikings don't only have QB problems right now, they have offensive problems. That might begin at the QB position but it doesn't end there and I just feel like that point needs to be emphasized in the face of so many others placing most of the blame on the QB. I believe the coaching staff agrees, which is why I don't think this talk about reinforcing fundamentals is just mundane coaching rhetoric designed to deflect blame.



I guess it depends on what we consider strides. I still see some genuine positives that are encouraging but it would definitely be nice to see him have a commanding 4 TD, 0 INT performance and really shred a defense.



LOL!



On the bright side, the remaining 8 (or more) games should really help Spielman determine what his next moves need to be in the offseason.

This is what I am really excited for, see who is up for the challenge of top tier opponents and who needs to go. Because in the end, if we are gonna win the SB several of the teams we play from here on out are what we will need to go through.

I don't think there are any personnel mysteries or surprises on the team this year. It's just a matter of prioritizing now.

You're probably right about that.