I don't think any QB can have a "defining moment" in their fifth career start (or even their first 16 games). There are probably multiple games in the first season of McNair, Montana, Favre and Brady's careers where they did similar things (played well overall but made a crucial mistake in the waning minutes) and came out on the losing side.



Really? Interesting that that one moment holds so much weight in your eyes.



Agree. Though he did have some "wow" throws. At least in my eyes. He also had some too.

We'll have to disagree on that. You may be choosing to see that as a defining moment but I'm not sure why that particular moment in that particular game should carry so much weight. Personally, I don't think what happened had anything to do with his character. He was baited into a rookie mistake by a veteran player. I believe it was as simple as that and I have a hard time accepting that Ponder was intimidated by the situation. He strikes me as the kind of player who wants the ball and the opportunity to lead his team to a win.

As we know all too well, Favre had some of those moments late in his career too.



Agree. Though he did have some "wow" throws. At least in my eyes. He also had some too.[/quote]

Oh yeah... we saw growing pains and promise, which is just what we expected to see. Hopefully, this season, we'll see progress!

Jim

Well, not to harp on the obvious as GB"Favre"fan, but Brett Favre's very first game with the Packers against the Bengals in 1992 was a last minute heroic TD for the win as any folk hero's debut would be, that definitely foreshadowed things to come. He was frustrating to watch his first few years, but he had already shown those intangibles that would make him a legend one day. Again, I don't "expect" any rookie QB to show those things, but when they do, its a big deal. Ponder and Tebow were both in position to do so, and Tebow rose to the occasion and Ponder didn't unfortunately. It's not that I wrote him off when he didn't do it, but if he had it would've been huge as a sign, for his confidence and for the team's morale. Then again Neo didn't jump the building his first time. (sorry for the lame Matrix reference ...)

yeah, we'll agree to disagree. That's just how I interpreted it as more significant, as bigger than just one play but that entire situation of the last several minutes. As long as Ponder sees it as you do instead of the way I did, then there won't be a problem! But the reason the finish of that game held so much weight for me is that was the first and only situation like that Ponder had been put in. But like my lame Matrix reference before, Neo didn't jump the building the first time either.

Through skill and experience he can still be the type of QB that can perform well in the 4th quarter but I'm not sure he can be like a Steve McNair who sat for 58 minutes with bandaged ribs and literally walked onto the field for one series at the end and lead his team downfield 80 yards to beat the Steelers in the last minute. Now that's something special. But I also acknowledge I focus more on intangibles with players than most fans which is why I like guys like McNair, Favre, and Montana so much.

Are you sure that's right? Technically, his first game as a Packer was against Tampa Bay when he was inserted for a benched Majkowski at the half. They lost the game 31-3 with Favre throwing for 106 yards. Regarding the Bengals game, one must remember that Favre fumbled 4 times before the last-minute heroic TD.



I understand what you're saying, but that's putting a lot of emphasis on Ponder when he had nothing to do with the Vikings' abismal defense/secondary performance that allowed Demaryius Thomas to get wide open (several times, I might add, due to broken coverage) and then a play later let McGahee walk into the end zone. Not to mention their strategy of not letting the Broncos score with 1:20 left to go and two timeouts. Who knows what Ponder could have done in that situation had he gotten the ball back.



No, I get the reference. Good movie. I think patience is key. I just don't know who we have in Ponder yet. But I'm pretty sure I'll have an idea after this season. Hopefully he has many (positive) career-defining plays this season and for many seasons to come.

One must also remember that Favre wasn't a rookie.

Oh, the difficulty of missing a couple days of discussion...


I don't think we have a disagreement on Aromashodu in particular. I would also like to upgrade. And one would hope that the team would hope to upgrade, always. I don't think the drafting of Adrian Peterson meant that we thought Chester Taylor and his 1200 yards rushing didn't belong on the field. I'm just saying that what you ask of a 3rd WR is to get around 500 yards in the season. Aromashodu got that for us - he did what one would expect of a journeyman WR, actually, much better than I thought he would be.

The other point is that the Vikings did everything to address their failings on offense (WR's, new O linemen, Carlson at TE) except replace the most vital cog - the QB. Technically, that's what this thread is about. The Vikes (rightly so at this stage) are going to live or die with Ponder (or Webb) at QB. The offense was really bad in 2011, so we replace all the parts we can and try again. The Ponder I saw wasn't hitting open receivers, so I didn't think that replacing any or all our receivers is going to help that. He either improves, or we suck again.

But I'm all for improving our WR corps in case he does develop nicely. I might have liked an overall emphasis on some more DB's over WR's (I think we are still subject to devastating injuries back there), but I am very happy with all the WR's we picked up, and hope they do prove to be better than a #3.

I don't think we should be taking injuries into account on Jenkins abilities, unless he has a history of such a thing (I don't know about one). If he had 460 yards in roughly 2/3 the season, that's actually pretty average production for a #2 guy. Like I said in prior posts, we can't go back to Carter, Moss, and Reed to point at for a realistic view of what our WR corps is going to look like (unless we are extremely lucky).


Yet these "terrible" players had stats that seem to put them in the middle of the pack of WR's. And is anyone here going to avow that we had good QB's throwing them the ball. But I agree - I hope to really enjoy a trio of #1 WR's in Harvin, Simpson, and Childs.

The jury is still out. Loved what I seen when he was flushed out of the pocket. Hope he can last all 16 games. Some talk about his size but ponder is bigger than RG3. I dont expect much trying to outscore cutler, rodgers, and stafford in the north.

What's this about Ponder putting on 15 lbs of muscle this offseason? Probably for extra protection against injury...? Bigger doesn't mean better for QBs, just look at guys like Brady Quinn and Tebow.

Well, if you all still believe Brad Childress, you don't have to have a great quarterback to win Super Bowls. But considering who was on the winning side of the past 10, I get the feeling it helps a lot.

All that said, Ponder has a lot of the right stuff to be a pretty decent quarterback in the right system. Most, if not all, quarterbacks need a system tailored to their capabilities...the guys who succeed are guys who demonstrate good decision making and learn systems quickly. Teams always fail when they try and force a quarterback to attempt to exceed their capabilities. It's like "hey, lets make Jake Plummer throw the long ball repeatedly, and force him to stay in the pocket" or "look, I know you're a capable running quarterback with a slowish release and very questionable passing decision making, Tarvaris, but I really just want you to stay in the pocket and make fast decisions and get the ball out quickly". We can all only hope that the Vikings's coaching staff are reviewing film and tailoring the heck out of their system for Ponder.

True but Cam Newton 248 lbs. and Roethlisberger 260 lbs. are two big strong guys who, to say the least, do quite well.

As long as a QB isn't losing flexibility, range of motion, mobility, etc. by adding some muscle, it's not a problem.

Jim

hope ponder turns out to be a workout warrior like tebow, but hope he doesnt lose flexibility and speed. endurance and cardio is more important.

I'm liking Ponder's attitude toward the Kalil situation, training camp, life in general. These guys look loose, while nothing big is expected of them. I see some very good things happening this season.

It really is Ponder's team, and there's no reason to dispute that. I honestly don't think the Vikings could be better positioned right now coming off of last season.

Echoing Eli's sentiments?

LOL, he made sense bro.

You cannot be serious.

You're going to call one fourth quarter of one game the "defining moment" of a rookie quarterback's career? Really?

Are you aware that Aaron Rodgers had a horrible record in fourth-quarter comebacks until just two years ago? He had something like ZERO 4th quarter comeback wins. Funny, but I didn't hear anybody saying, "He just can't do it. It's a defining moment."

I have an idea. How about we let Ponder have a year with training camp, with receivers that could actually make a Division II college team, and with an offensive line whose greatest individual talents do NOT center around how much they can put away at Waffle House.

Maybe Christian Ponder will never make anybody forget Joe Montana, but maybe we at least ought to give the kid more than a single fourth-quarter failure before we start declaring defining moments.

The sad thing is the attitude about Ponder is hardly uncommon. I demeaned myself and listened to the Common Man yesterday and both he and Mark Rosen were spouting off on how if the Vikings had not beat the Redskins they would have drafted RGIII.

Honestly, they draft a guy who plays half a season with no offseason, he performs typcialyl for a rookie, and everyone wants to blow another top pick on a QB the very next year.

Thankfully, none of these clowns are running our team.

And even more thankfully, none of the fans. Lose games to get a better draft pick, draft another QB, fire the coach every year, run Adrian Peterson 30 times a game, but throw the ball a lot more (?). Put Percy Harvin on the field for every play, but don't let him return kicks (?). Draft a wide receiver and a defensive tackle and a cornerback in the first round.

Even if Ponder was an Eli Manning type of caliber... I'd be more than happy. Nothing flashy but gets the job done.

2 Super Bowl wins won't hurt!

I know, but Eli Manning still doesn't get the love his brother (who's only won 1x) or guys like Brees and Rodgers (who've also only won the big game 1x). Hard to not make a case for HOF if he wins it again.

I dont' know if its because his last name is Manning or what, but Eli has gotten so little respect his entire career in comparison to what he's actually done on the field. Even winning a second SB, he still gets a pat on the head. Truth is if i'm building a team that actually wants to win playoff games and multiple championships I pick Eli Manning. If I want to build a consistent 10 or 11 game winning team and get media respect but at the end of the day, actually very little to show for it, then I pick Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning is the 90's Atlanta Braves of football.

Well, because for the majority of his career (especially pre-2008) he simply wasn't very good. Until 2008 he had a sub-60% completion rate (2008 he finally hit 60%), 77:64 TD:INT ratio (77:89 if you count fumbles), and never surpassed a QBR of 77.0 with decent weapons to work with.

Despite missing this season due to injury, Peyton still has four MVP Awards on his resume -- an NFL record. Peyton also has a won-loss record of 141-67 in games he starts. Eli, meanwhile, sports a record of 69-50. Having entered the NFL several years ahead of his little brother, Peyton has nearly double the career passing yards and more than twice has many touchdown passes (399 to 185).



I think it's important to distinguish between the defenses of the Colts and Giants too, which has every bit as much to do with it given the disparity between the two. The Giants have been the league's top defenses for nearly the entirety of both Mannings' careers while the Colts (especially in recent years) have been in the cellar.

Give me Peyton with Eli's defense all week and twice on Sunday (though that was more solid before this neck business).

I understand your point and agree that the Giants have had a better overall defense, but Eli has still personally performed better in the playoffs and Super Bowls. he also did so with a rotating cast of receivers where Peyton had a HOF'er for most of his career across from Reggie Wayne who has been top notch. Both of Eli's SB wins were filled with heroic plays from Eli. In Peyton's 2 Super Bowl appearances, one was very average carried by a turnover prone Bears (2007 & 2011 Patriots beat the 2006 Bears 50 times out of 50) and a huge running game, in a playoff run that was fueled by Bob Sanders and a Colts defense that was fantastic. Their second SB appearance, Peyton threw a game losing INT and had one more chance to win and failed in that drive as well. I don't really feel like diggin up stats right now, but Eli has performed better in the playoffs even beyond rings and actual record, and Peyton's playoffs are filled with subpar performances against the Steelers, Pats, and Chargers. If you want the perfect Manning, have Peyton start for the first 16 games, and let Eli play in January!

But to bring this back to the original statement about Eli, I'd rather have Ponder end up like Eli than Peyton. The Vikings have proven to be able to be a top team incapable of winning THE big one. With a Peyton-type we're status quo. If Ponder can end up an inconsistent regular season guy, but a winner in January, that's what the Vikings need.

But my basic point about the "Manning" thing, was I think if his name was Eli Smith, people's perceptions of him might be better. i won't fight to the death about that point, but I think there might be something there.

Eli was brilliant in the playoffs last year. The GB Packers game was a thing of beauty. The one play where he threw the INT to Morgan Burnett, if you pause it where he picks it off, Cruz was wide open b/c Woodson slipped. That was the one time the pass rush got to Eli but he stood in the pocket and delivered all game. I really think if they kept Manningham, they'd have a serious 3 deep WR situation going on. Cruz and Nicks are just nasty

I'm not sure there's much proof that Eli is better in the playoffs. There's a lot of proof that the Giants were better than the Colts in the playoffs. Going Eli and Peyton's stats though ...

In the playoffs;

Completion Percentage: Peyton Wins 63.1% to 59.8%
QB rating: Peyton Wins 88.4 to 87.5
Yard per Attempt: Peyton Wins 7.51 to 7.03

TDs per game Eli wins: 1.6 to 1.53
TD/INT ration Eli wins 2 to 1.53

The Giants have done better than the Colts in the playoffs ... but did Eli really do better than Peyton? I'm not sure about that.

Not tryint to take anything away from Eli. He, of course, was part of the reason the Giants won. I'm just not sure it's clear how much better Eli played than Peyton.

Got my stats from here;
http://statsontapp.com/2012/01/23/peyto ... omparison/